Difference between CPL and ATPL
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Difference between CPL and ATPL
Hi all,
I have always fancied going down the route of becoming a commerial airline pilot, but one thing has been annoying me for a while now:
What is the difference between a CPL and an ATPL- if any?
Rgds
Scott
I have always fancied going down the route of becoming a commerial airline pilot, but one thing has been annoying me for a while now:
What is the difference between a CPL and an ATPL- if any?
Rgds
Scott
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A CPL is a Commercial Pilots Licence
An ATPL is an Air Transport Pilots Licence.
If you have a CPL/IR then you will have what is known as a Frozen ATPL and you may fly for the airlines.
An ATPL is issued when someone obtains the required experience at CPL/IR level. This includes 500 hours Multi Pilot Operations, 1500 Hours Total Time etc.
You cannot be in command of a multi pilot airliner (for instance) without a full ATPL. However you can be a First Officer, ie P2 or P1 U/S with a CPL/IR.
This is a very basic idea of what an ATPL is, I am sure someone else will be able to elaborate on my comments.
An ATPL is an Air Transport Pilots Licence.
If you have a CPL/IR then you will have what is known as a Frozen ATPL and you may fly for the airlines.
An ATPL is issued when someone obtains the required experience at CPL/IR level. This includes 500 hours Multi Pilot Operations, 1500 Hours Total Time etc.
You cannot be in command of a multi pilot airliner (for instance) without a full ATPL. However you can be a First Officer, ie P2 or P1 U/S with a CPL/IR.
This is a very basic idea of what an ATPL is, I am sure someone else will be able to elaborate on my comments.
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Don't take CPL
My advice, through bitter experience, is to say don't do the CPL under any circumstances whatsoever: do the ATPL even if you are an old private pilot wanting to become a club instructor.
If you are a young pilot, there is even less justification to do the CPL, as it confines you to the right-hand seat if you decide to enter airline service (that's assuming the airlines will be interested in you at all, which I doubt). There is no upgrade route to convert from CPL to ATPL unless you do the whole 14 ground school exams for the ATPL.
The CPL groundschool exams have only nine papers, (as opposed to the ATPL's 14) but you are actually examined in 13 (yes, thirteen) subjects within those nine papers. The syllabus for ATPL exams contains very little indeed that is not also in the CPL examinations.
Let me explain the implications of this. Let's take an example, Navigation. In the ATPL, General Navigation and Radio Navigation are two entirely different papers each with, I suppose, 70 odd questions in the exam for each subject: a total of about 140 questions. Clearly, it is possible to pass one and fail the other. If you fail one, you only have to revise the one you failed for your next attempt.
CPL Navigation is one paper that embraces both General and Radio Navigation, but you still only get, say 70 questions within which to demonstrate your knowledge. The syllabus for CPL Navigation covers at least 85% of the ATPL syllabus for both General and Radio Navigation.
Since the pass mark is 75% in all papers, you don't have to get many questions wrong in the CPL Navigation to fail effectively two subjects. This means you will have to revise both subjects for your next attempt.
The Central Question Bank comprises a body of questions 85% of which are perfectly fair and reasonable. The remaining 15% are split equally between complete 'no brainers' and questions that require a depth of understanding far beyond anything that any commercial pilot needs for operational purposes. Questions are selected for inclusion in the paper by some kind of random selection process, so by sheer luck you can get either a preponderance of 'no brainers' or a preponderance of exessively difficult questions within those 15%.
I think you can see that even if you have genuinely done the work, just a few of those excessively difficult questions could scupper your chances of passing, and then you have to revise the whole of two subjects all over again in order to repeat one paper. I found that this made the CPL far trickier to pass than the ATPL!
Finally, I suggest you read Clive Hughes' 'Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot'. It may look amateurishly produced and expensive for what it is, but the information in it is invaluable. It will give you the whole 'low-down' on the whole business.
Good Luck!
If you are a young pilot, there is even less justification to do the CPL, as it confines you to the right-hand seat if you decide to enter airline service (that's assuming the airlines will be interested in you at all, which I doubt). There is no upgrade route to convert from CPL to ATPL unless you do the whole 14 ground school exams for the ATPL.
The CPL groundschool exams have only nine papers, (as opposed to the ATPL's 14) but you are actually examined in 13 (yes, thirteen) subjects within those nine papers. The syllabus for ATPL exams contains very little indeed that is not also in the CPL examinations.
Let me explain the implications of this. Let's take an example, Navigation. In the ATPL, General Navigation and Radio Navigation are two entirely different papers each with, I suppose, 70 odd questions in the exam for each subject: a total of about 140 questions. Clearly, it is possible to pass one and fail the other. If you fail one, you only have to revise the one you failed for your next attempt.
CPL Navigation is one paper that embraces both General and Radio Navigation, but you still only get, say 70 questions within which to demonstrate your knowledge. The syllabus for CPL Navigation covers at least 85% of the ATPL syllabus for both General and Radio Navigation.
Since the pass mark is 75% in all papers, you don't have to get many questions wrong in the CPL Navigation to fail effectively two subjects. This means you will have to revise both subjects for your next attempt.
The Central Question Bank comprises a body of questions 85% of which are perfectly fair and reasonable. The remaining 15% are split equally between complete 'no brainers' and questions that require a depth of understanding far beyond anything that any commercial pilot needs for operational purposes. Questions are selected for inclusion in the paper by some kind of random selection process, so by sheer luck you can get either a preponderance of 'no brainers' or a preponderance of exessively difficult questions within those 15%.
I think you can see that even if you have genuinely done the work, just a few of those excessively difficult questions could scupper your chances of passing, and then you have to revise the whole of two subjects all over again in order to repeat one paper. I found that this made the CPL far trickier to pass than the ATPL!
Finally, I suggest you read Clive Hughes' 'Guide to Becoming a Professional Pilot'. It may look amateurishly produced and expensive for what it is, but the information in it is invaluable. It will give you the whole 'low-down' on the whole business.
Good Luck!
If you have a CPL/IR then you will have what is known as a Frozen ATPL and you may fly for the airlines.
You need to read the sticky thread at the top of this forum called 'Archive reference threads - read before you post a question'
In it you'll find this topic.
In it you'll find this topic.
Dnathan, what you wrote has some errors.
1. The ATPL is not just a British/European licence, although it is one of the licences previously available as a British national licence/currently available as a JAR licence. Other countries also issue ATPLs within their licencing system.
2. You need to do more than just pass the ATPL exams to hold what is colloquially known in Europe as a 'Frozen ATPL'. Note that there is no such licence as a fATPL. It's just shorthand for CPL + IR + ATPL exams completed.
3. You need more than just 1500 hrs TT to get an ATPL. There are subdivisions of required experience which vary from authority to authority.
4. The JAR ATPL, whilst it doesn't require a specific flight test, still requires at least one of several skill tests within a limited period prior to applying for the licence.
5. You most certainly can be renumerated holding an ATPL only. Both the CPL and ATPL are professional licences that allow the pilot to be paid. The ATPL is a higher category of licence. In some jurisdictions it's also possible for a PPL to be paid to fly as well, in certain defined operations although most people will get a CPL on their way to an ATPL. But not always, or not always for the issue of the ATPL in another country.
For example, in addition to my Oz licences, I hold UK & USA ATPLs - and have worked in both countries - without ever holding PPLs or CPLs from either of them.
I think you would also benefit from reading the sticky at the top of this forum.
<<edit: Tin, my dear man, Dnathans response was a wind up. Fair play though, considering the garbage that this thread has managed to pull in, it does almost seem believable. I actually thought I understood the system until I read this thread - now I'm not so sure any more.
No doubt many of the posters would still insist that they have wanted to be airline pilots since they were three years old. I really would like to know where some of this mis-information actually comes from. It's scary, at times.>>
1. The ATPL is not just a British/European licence, although it is one of the licences previously available as a British national licence/currently available as a JAR licence. Other countries also issue ATPLs within their licencing system.
2. You need to do more than just pass the ATPL exams to hold what is colloquially known in Europe as a 'Frozen ATPL'. Note that there is no such licence as a fATPL. It's just shorthand for CPL + IR + ATPL exams completed.
3. You need more than just 1500 hrs TT to get an ATPL. There are subdivisions of required experience which vary from authority to authority.
4. The JAR ATPL, whilst it doesn't require a specific flight test, still requires at least one of several skill tests within a limited period prior to applying for the licence.
5. You most certainly can be renumerated holding an ATPL only. Both the CPL and ATPL are professional licences that allow the pilot to be paid. The ATPL is a higher category of licence. In some jurisdictions it's also possible for a PPL to be paid to fly as well, in certain defined operations although most people will get a CPL on their way to an ATPL. But not always, or not always for the issue of the ATPL in another country.
For example, in addition to my Oz licences, I hold UK & USA ATPLs - and have worked in both countries - without ever holding PPLs or CPLs from either of them.
I think you would also benefit from reading the sticky at the top of this forum.
<<edit: Tin, my dear man, Dnathans response was a wind up. Fair play though, considering the garbage that this thread has managed to pull in, it does almost seem believable. I actually thought I understood the system until I read this thread - now I'm not so sure any more.
No doubt many of the posters would still insist that they have wanted to be airline pilots since they were three years old. I really would like to know where some of this mis-information actually comes from. It's scary, at times.>>
Last edited by Keygrip; 24th Mar 2005 at 02:13.
Dnathan, I corrected only those bits of information you gave that aren't correct. If you don't like the information then that's your perogative.
The facts are as I stated. That your friends - who seem new to this industy - supplied you with incorrect information, due misunderstanding or simple ignorance - has little to do with me.
The facts are as I stated. That your friends - who seem new to this industy - supplied you with incorrect information, due misunderstanding or simple ignorance - has little to do with me.
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Dear Tin,
I have come to understand, what you said about my postings were correct and as a result, I have deleted them to avoid confusion.
I realise the main difference is, that with only a JAA CPL you cannot act as PIC in commercial air transportation, only co-pilot, and that the JAA ATPL allows you to exercise all privileges of both PPL, CPL and an IR. The CPL pilot will have to add the IR in addition.
A normal course for the wannabe future airline pilot I guess, would be to complete PPL, CPL, IR and ATPL exams since this would enable an inexperienced pilot to build up the flight time requirement for the ATPL cheapest, exercising your CPL/IR privileges and getting paid. An MCC course in addition is required by most companies.
Regards, Dan
I have come to understand, what you said about my postings were correct and as a result, I have deleted them to avoid confusion.
I realise the main difference is, that with only a JAA CPL you cannot act as PIC in commercial air transportation, only co-pilot, and that the JAA ATPL allows you to exercise all privileges of both PPL, CPL and an IR. The CPL pilot will have to add the IR in addition.
A normal course for the wannabe future airline pilot I guess, would be to complete PPL, CPL, IR and ATPL exams since this would enable an inexperienced pilot to build up the flight time requirement for the ATPL cheapest, exercising your CPL/IR privileges and getting paid. An MCC course in addition is required by most companies.
Regards, Dan
A couple of minor points:
You can act as PIC with only a CPL while doing commercial air transport. It just can't be in an a/c type that requires more than 1 pilot. Quite a bit of commercial air transport is done in single pilot types. I suspect you're considering only airline type ops that use multi-pilot aircraft. They're the ones most people think of when they're referring to air transport ops.
A US ATP includes an integral IR. An old UK, JAR or many other countrie's ATPL doesn't so you must also hold an IR added to the underlying licence.
It's quite true that the most common route is PPL to CPL to ATPL. Depending on the country an IR could be added anywhere after the PPL (except the US where you could front up for an ATP test without an IR).
It's also possible in some countries to go directly to a CPL without ever holding a PPL eg in Australia.
You can act as PIC with only a CPL while doing commercial air transport. It just can't be in an a/c type that requires more than 1 pilot. Quite a bit of commercial air transport is done in single pilot types. I suspect you're considering only airline type ops that use multi-pilot aircraft. They're the ones most people think of when they're referring to air transport ops.
A US ATP includes an integral IR. An old UK, JAR or many other countrie's ATPL doesn't so you must also hold an IR added to the underlying licence.
It's quite true that the most common route is PPL to CPL to ATPL. Depending on the country an IR could be added anywhere after the PPL (except the US where you could front up for an ATP test without an IR).
It's also possible in some countries to go directly to a CPL without ever holding a PPL eg in Australia.
