instrument rating - ORAL exam
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instrument rating - ORAL exam
hello all
coming up to IR test time for me and have heard things being banded about now that the IR has an important oral section. Has anyone, just finished the IR any insight to what this portion of the overall test consists of
Ta very much in advance
TR
coming up to IR test time for me and have heard things being banded about now that the IR has an important oral section. Has anyone, just finished the IR any insight to what this portion of the overall test consists of
Ta very much in advance
TR
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An important oral section?
Are you thinking about the FAA IR where there is indeed a very important Oral section to the checkride?
Does the JAA IR flight test have an oral exam as well?
I've not sat the JAA IR flight test yet so wouldn't mind knowing for when the time arrives for me...
If it is the FAA IR Oral Exam you are talking about then I'll see if I can muster up what I can remember of mine a couple of years ago.
Are you thinking about the FAA IR where there is indeed a very important Oral section to the checkride?
Does the JAA IR flight test have an oral exam as well?
I've not sat the JAA IR flight test yet so wouldn't mind knowing for when the time arrives for me...
If it is the FAA IR Oral Exam you are talking about then I'll see if I can muster up what I can remember of mine a couple of years ago.
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thereceiver
Funny you just asked that question , A friend of mine failed his Ir last week on the oral exam . The examiner kept him the room for 1 hour and turned him inside out . After the oral the examiner said he was not happy with his theoretical knowledge of instrument flying and flight planning .. flighttime
Funny you just asked that question , A friend of mine failed his Ir last week on the oral exam . The examiner kept him the room for 1 hour and turned him inside out . After the oral the examiner said he was not happy with his theoretical knowledge of instrument flying and flight planning .. flighttime
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If they do this they might as well bin the requirement for the written exams
In the states there is just one integrated exam and aural
When 7-14 exams have been sat the need for such a test should be superfluous
Why dont they just add the questions they are asking to the question bank?
Of course the real issue here is that they dont trust the exams to INTEGRATE the required knowledge.
Maybe they think (rightly) that the exams have very little to do with flying a light aircraft on instruments.... which the test is supposed to be about ... not about airline ops ....
In the states there is just one integrated exam and aural
When 7-14 exams have been sat the need for such a test should be superfluous
Why dont they just add the questions they are asking to the question bank?
Of course the real issue here is that they dont trust the exams to INTEGRATE the required knowledge.
Maybe they think (rightly) that the exams have very little to do with flying a light aircraft on instruments.... which the test is supposed to be about ... not about airline ops ....
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Knew things were heading this way.
I posted back in June that they were getting tough on the flight planning and general knowledge aspects and I was right. It is especially tough if you take the test at flight testing HQ in Bournemouth because they get bored with flying out the same place all the time so in typical CAA fashion they devise ways of increasing their interest levels and justifying the exam/test charges.
The examiner who "did me" asked for an explanation on take off and landing factors. Why lie eh? --> Most of us dump the knowledge straight after ATPL's so this question caught one rather off guard. No phone a friend either. Most of us just apply the factors but think not of why and how they are devised. Come to think of it: the ATPL's glossed over this rather important area but hey - let us not confuse JAA ATPL written exams with exams which actually examine us on pertinent information which might be of use during our impending flying careers......
The test is to certify us for flying single pilot twin engined IFR which is at best taxing and at worse bloody dangerous and after passing that test we're cleared to fly off into milk in 30 year old aircraft on our own..... so it's kinda understandable that the authority should be authoritarian on the matter..... err.... cuz that's what authorities do ennit?
Shame they cannot sort out the waste of paper that is the ATPL writtens because that would save work for the flight test examiners eh....
VFE.
I posted back in June that they were getting tough on the flight planning and general knowledge aspects and I was right. It is especially tough if you take the test at flight testing HQ in Bournemouth because they get bored with flying out the same place all the time so in typical CAA fashion they devise ways of increasing their interest levels and justifying the exam/test charges.
The examiner who "did me" asked for an explanation on take off and landing factors. Why lie eh? --> Most of us dump the knowledge straight after ATPL's so this question caught one rather off guard. No phone a friend either. Most of us just apply the factors but think not of why and how they are devised. Come to think of it: the ATPL's glossed over this rather important area but hey - let us not confuse JAA ATPL written exams with exams which actually examine us on pertinent information which might be of use during our impending flying careers......
The test is to certify us for flying single pilot twin engined IFR which is at best taxing and at worse bloody dangerous and after passing that test we're cleared to fly off into milk in 30 year old aircraft on our own..... so it's kinda understandable that the authority should be authoritarian on the matter..... err.... cuz that's what authorities do ennit?
Shame they cannot sort out the waste of paper that is the ATPL writtens because that would save work for the flight test examiners eh....
VFE.
Last edited by VFE; 16th Feb 2005 at 13:30.
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Monkey See ... Monkey Do
Yes I think the feedback from this exercise will rather cynically be used to redefine the examination requirements for what is a rating that enables one to fly single crew light aircraft...
They will say things like the ATPL and IR exams are too airline focussed for the IR and use terms like 'Integrated' you can just see it...
Now where was that book on the ICAO Multi-Pilot Rating...?
Instead of wasting time on failing folks for this why don't they put out a video of the chief examiner doing a test route with all the planning etc thrown in.... Now that would be interesting....
Of course that will never happen because 'its all a bit of a secret...' or is it because they would open themselves to criticism?
Another possibility the pass rates could be too good at Bournemouth and this is an attempt to bring them into alignment in advance of the FOIA...?
Oh dear I am so cynical but with such a secretive organisation
intent on financially milking and over regulating this industry I feel my response is justfied...
They will say things like the ATPL and IR exams are too airline focussed for the IR and use terms like 'Integrated' you can just see it...
Now where was that book on the ICAO Multi-Pilot Rating...?
Instead of wasting time on failing folks for this why don't they put out a video of the chief examiner doing a test route with all the planning etc thrown in.... Now that would be interesting....
Of course that will never happen because 'its all a bit of a secret...' or is it because they would open themselves to criticism?
Another possibility the pass rates could be too good at Bournemouth and this is an attempt to bring them into alignment in advance of the FOIA...?
Oh dear I am so cynical but with such a secretive organisation
intent on financially milking and over regulating this industry I feel my response is justfied...
Last edited by RVR800; 16th Feb 2005 at 14:14.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Early contender for most 'bang on' post of the year there RVR800. 
Especially liked the '...all a bit of a secret....' part. Unbelievably, that is so very true!
Methinks the CAA assume every IR applicant to be heading straight for the airlines when in actual fact some are advanced PPL'ers with no aspirations towards sitting in glass cockpits whatsoever.
VFE.
Especially liked the '...all a bit of a secret....' part. Unbelievably, that is so very true!
Methinks the CAA assume every IR applicant to be heading straight for the airlines when in actual fact some are advanced PPL'ers with no aspirations towards sitting in glass cockpits whatsoever.
VFE.
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Here are some of the questions I got asked after finishing my pre-flight planning and before going flying:
What class(es) of airspace are we going to be flying in today?
What air traffic services are available in the UK for IFR flight outside controlled airspace?
Which service do you intend to request?
Who is responsible for collision avoidance under a RIS - the pilot or ATC?
What do you understand by the "approach ban?"
Why have you quoted an RVR minima of 800m when the figure on the ILS approach chart is 550m?
I see you have multiplied the POH take off distance required by 1.25 - why?
Show me what you would check (tech log and aircraft documents)before accepting the aeroplane for this flight.
If you lose DME information during the ILS approach what difference, if any, will it make to the way you fly it?
Looking back it wasn't exactly the Spanish Inquisition. I think he was just trying to check that I understood what I was doing. The last one threw me a bit - I started waffling about localiser approaches and the minima increasing and it becoming an MDA, until he pointed out that it was only the DME that was lost and ATC can pass radar ranges. Still got a localiser and still got a glide slope so it's still an ILS precision approach! Doh!
What class(es) of airspace are we going to be flying in today?
What air traffic services are available in the UK for IFR flight outside controlled airspace?
Which service do you intend to request?
Who is responsible for collision avoidance under a RIS - the pilot or ATC?
What do you understand by the "approach ban?"
Why have you quoted an RVR minima of 800m when the figure on the ILS approach chart is 550m?
I see you have multiplied the POH take off distance required by 1.25 - why?
Show me what you would check (tech log and aircraft documents)before accepting the aeroplane for this flight.
If you lose DME information during the ILS approach what difference, if any, will it make to the way you fly it?
Looking back it wasn't exactly the Spanish Inquisition. I think he was just trying to check that I understood what I was doing. The last one threw me a bit - I started waffling about localiser approaches and the minima increasing and it becoming an MDA, until he pointed out that it was only the DME that was lost and ATC can pass radar ranges. Still got a localiser and still got a glide slope so it's still an ILS precision approach! Doh!
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Charlie Zulu - It is a JAR IR being done in the UK
eindekker - Thanks mate just the answers i was looking for, my instructor mentioned things like that and seeing as i will be using a Bournemouth Examiner seems most posts here make sense.
Thanks again
eindekker - Thanks mate just the answers i was looking for, my instructor mentioned things like that and seeing as i will be using a Bournemouth Examiner seems most posts here make sense.
Thanks again
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I did my IR at Bournemouth too, and had a similar bunch of questions posed.
On the day I thought all sorts of unkind and unpleasant thoughts towards the examiner. Looking back on them retrospectively, I think that they're all good, valid, intelligent questions to ask - why wouldn't a pilot be expected to know the answers to them. They're much more relevant than some of the JAR written question..has any Captain ever been asked by an anxious member of the cabin crew just what the symptons of glaucoma are?
You can get some good FAA IR oral prep guides (published by ASA I think) that are good revision aids for instruments, approaches etc.- but be aware of potential FAA/JAR differences in various regulations etc.
On the day I thought all sorts of unkind and unpleasant thoughts towards the examiner. Looking back on them retrospectively, I think that they're all good, valid, intelligent questions to ask - why wouldn't a pilot be expected to know the answers to them. They're much more relevant than some of the JAR written question..has any Captain ever been asked by an anxious member of the cabin crew just what the symptons of glaucoma are?
You can get some good FAA IR oral prep guides (published by ASA I think) that are good revision aids for instruments, approaches etc.- but be aware of potential FAA/JAR differences in various regulations etc.
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Just the sort of questions any half-decent instructor would have briefed you on during training anyway, and some of them are things that really ought to be in your approach briefings for every instrument procedure.
I agree however, that it is just one more little 'nasty' on a day most students feel under the greatest pressure, and one which some probably don't expect (due to being inadequately prepared by their FTO).
I agree however, that it is just one more little 'nasty' on a day most students feel under the greatest pressure, and one which some probably don't expect (due to being inadequately prepared by their FTO).
The UK (and subsequently, JARlala-land) was the first place I'd seen that didn't have an oral section as part of a flight test.
I passed both Commercial & IR tests with excellent results yet hadn't a clue about UK operations even having just passed all the UK ATPL exams - some with superb marks. Approach ban? Never heard of it. IFR in 'G' without an IR? You've got to be kidding. It was PPRuNe & working for an airline that filled the gaps.
So much for the flight test testing one's knowledge, understanding & ability...
Oz & the US, on the other hand, have an oral portion for pretty much all the flight tests. It nearly always consists of operational & legal considerarations for a scenario(s) given on the day, for a flight operated using the privileges & limations of the licence/rating being sought. I tend to think it's a better way.
I passed both Commercial & IR tests with excellent results yet hadn't a clue about UK operations even having just passed all the UK ATPL exams - some with superb marks. Approach ban? Never heard of it. IFR in 'G' without an IR? You've got to be kidding. It was PPRuNe & working for an airline that filled the gaps.
So much for the flight test testing one's knowledge, understanding & ability...
Oz & the US, on the other hand, have an oral portion for pretty much all the flight tests. It nearly always consists of operational & legal considerarations for a scenario(s) given on the day, for a flight operated using the privileges & limations of the licence/rating being sought. I tend to think it's a better way.
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Tinstaafl,
Just out of interest, what did you do when the weather was below the published minima, or was an approach ban called something else?
Approach ban? Never heard of it
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Just out of interest, what did you do when the weather was below the published minima, or was an approach ban called something else?
In Oz there is no such thing as the approach ban. You can do approaches until the cows come home no matter how bad the weather.
The first I heard of the approach ban was when I started working for a UK regional since the company ops manual had to conform to it. An oral about operational things as part of the flight test would most likely have highlighted this deficit in my knowledge. Certainly the ATPL law exam & IR test didn't. Similarly my surprise after learning from PPRuNe about non-IR pilots flying IFR in 'G' & also not being able to do approaches unless ATC or a FISO is on duty.
The first I heard of the approach ban was when I started working for a UK regional since the company ops manual had to conform to it. An oral about operational things as part of the flight test would most likely have highlighted this deficit in my knowledge. Certainly the ATPL law exam & IR test didn't. Similarly my surprise after learning from PPRuNe about non-IR pilots flying IFR in 'G' & also not being able to do approaches unless ATC or a FISO is on duty.
Last edited by Tinstaafl; 19th Feb 2005 at 14:51.
