Order taking licenses-which is best?
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Join Date: Mar 2004
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Age: 53
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Order taking licenses-which is best?
Hey, I had my Initial Class one yeterday and everything seems fine, so im now thinking seriously about my studies.
I have oncec thought about getting my PPL-MULTI-NIGHT with a flying school in Ordmond Beach FL, including 100hours on the 'ATPL Prep' course, then oing the ATPL ground school distance learning, before getting my CPL, FI and IR afterwards.
My question is, would it be a bad idea to get the licenses (up to CPL/IR/FI) and then do the ATPL groundschool after that? This is subject to getting a bank loan, of course.
Or would it be more sensible to do the ATPL first? Im talking JAA here, if it makes a difference, not sure if it does
. Thanks in advance for any advice 
I have oncec thought about getting my PPL-MULTI-NIGHT with a flying school in Ordmond Beach FL, including 100hours on the 'ATPL Prep' course, then oing the ATPL ground school distance learning, before getting my CPL, FI and IR afterwards.
My question is, would it be a bad idea to get the licenses (up to CPL/IR/FI) and then do the ATPL groundschool after that? This is subject to getting a bank loan, of course.
Or would it be more sensible to do the ATPL first? Im talking JAA here, if it makes a difference, not sure if it does
. Thanks in advance for any advice
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Age?
I think the answer may depend on your age.
This is what someone told me.
"Be aware that at age 37 you will probably need more total flying hours to get an interview than applicants in their twenties. A good target would be 1000 so this may necessitate acquiring a Flying Instructor rating and building hours after CPL issue - you could delay the IR and MCC until the job market improves or you get several hundred hours under your belt."
This is what someone told me.
"Be aware that at age 37 you will probably need more total flying hours to get an interview than applicants in their twenties. A good target would be 1000 so this may necessitate acquiring a Flying Instructor rating and building hours after CPL issue - you could delay the IR and MCC until the job market improves or you get several hundred hours under your belt."
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Hi IKEA - the short answer to your general question about structuring training is to look up LASORS, which is the gospel according to St CAA regarding what you can do and when.
Goto CAA website, SRG then FCL....it can be downloaded from there. Alternatively find a flight school that will let you look at their book copy.
I have completed modular training and hence learnt a few things along the way, beware that people you encounter who you may expect to guide you (eg flight training organisations) will not necessarily catch any errors on your part - it is considered the applicant's responsibility as well as theirs to be within the requirements at each stage.
Here is a broad idea of the order things can take:
1. PPL - min 45hrs total flight and qualifying cross country flight plus PPL written papers plus Radio Test pass required before taking flight test.
2. For CPL SKILLS TEST you must have PPL, Radio Licence, full CPL or ATPL theory exam passes, completion of CPL skills training course, AND (and this is a bogey sometimes not checked by flight schools) the completion of the required 5hrs training for Night Qualifiction BEFORE TAKING CPL SKILLS TEST. The CAA has started to get shirty about issuing licences to people who have night training logged AFTER CPL test. I understand that technically they COULD make you retake CPL test for that!!!
3. The 100hrs PIC required and CPL cross country qualifier (300nm, 2 land aways on the same day) can be after the test but obviously need to be in order before licence application.
4. IR - can be done either once you have PPL or after CPL:
If after PPL but before CPL then you MUST have night qualification first. If after PPL but before CPL/ATPL theory you have to do IR theory exams. If after PPL and after CPL/ATPL theory exams, those exams allow you to do the IR course and test. If you do IR before CPL then 55hrs training required, if after CPL then 50hrs required (the CPL has 5hrs mandatory instrument flight training included)
5. If, on the other hand you do IR before CPL, the CPL training is 15hrs not 25hrs.
6. Forget all about Multi Engines until the IR. You will forget what you've done by the time need it for the IR and unnecessarily complicate the development of your experience at such an early stage when you are still getting to grips with Single Engine flying.
The exception to 6 is that in the US some do Multi Engine right after PPL and Night Qual., but then go on to do CPL in the twin too, so that does make sense for the benefit of Multi IR training later. But in my opinion, Multi Rating just by itself so early on, not necessarily beneficial.
Doing a CPL in a twin in UK is not normally affordable.
I personally did Multi Rating test the day after Multi IR test - be aware that in order to commence Multi IR training you must first do 6hrs Multi training. You do not need Multi test to do Multi IR test, but you do need Multi test to apply for Multi IR issue on your licence.
Regarding going to the US, my opinion is if at all possible avoid it.
Practical considerations and accomodation extras all add up and come not far short of the total that would have been required in UK. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE TRAIN IN THE UK. The Radio is much more strict here, and the vagaries of dealing with congested UK airspace and weather will stand you in MUCH better stead for your overall experience and confidence. In the US it is possible to go all the way to acheiving a UK/JAR CPL, but you will still have to do IR in UK (a conversion if you do the FAA IR in the US). This is a tall order if you do all this in the relatively benign US training environment and then face your first flying in the UK at the IR stage. Additionally, NDB use in US is all but non existent, and by training in UK you may be able to start gaining an appreciation of these as early as your PPL training. The best time to come across these for the very first time is not at the very outset of your IR training, when if you have been to the US you are also coping with the stricter Radio and other aspects mentioned before.
Having said all of that, I know of people who do it and get through, but I am aware that these can be issues coming back into UK flying.
So, in summary the issue of going to US is a personal one but I think there are more cons than pros.
Regarding the order in which you things, it nowhere near as much of a free choice as I get the impression you may think it is.
Above all else - CHECK LASORS and if in any doubt check your reading of it with someone qualified (head of training or senior instructor, or better still an external CAA person). In particular be careful to do your Night Training when you should - after the PPL and before the earlier of THE COMMENCEMENT of you IR or CPL training courses, whichever you decide to do first.
Hope this is helpful, and good luck!!!
(Happy to check errors in anything I have said of course!)
Goto CAA website, SRG then FCL....it can be downloaded from there. Alternatively find a flight school that will let you look at their book copy.
I have completed modular training and hence learnt a few things along the way, beware that people you encounter who you may expect to guide you (eg flight training organisations) will not necessarily catch any errors on your part - it is considered the applicant's responsibility as well as theirs to be within the requirements at each stage.
Here is a broad idea of the order things can take:
1. PPL - min 45hrs total flight and qualifying cross country flight plus PPL written papers plus Radio Test pass required before taking flight test.
2. For CPL SKILLS TEST you must have PPL, Radio Licence, full CPL or ATPL theory exam passes, completion of CPL skills training course, AND (and this is a bogey sometimes not checked by flight schools) the completion of the required 5hrs training for Night Qualifiction BEFORE TAKING CPL SKILLS TEST. The CAA has started to get shirty about issuing licences to people who have night training logged AFTER CPL test. I understand that technically they COULD make you retake CPL test for that!!!
3. The 100hrs PIC required and CPL cross country qualifier (300nm, 2 land aways on the same day) can be after the test but obviously need to be in order before licence application.
4. IR - can be done either once you have PPL or after CPL:
If after PPL but before CPL then you MUST have night qualification first. If after PPL but before CPL/ATPL theory you have to do IR theory exams. If after PPL and after CPL/ATPL theory exams, those exams allow you to do the IR course and test. If you do IR before CPL then 55hrs training required, if after CPL then 50hrs required (the CPL has 5hrs mandatory instrument flight training included)
5. If, on the other hand you do IR before CPL, the CPL training is 15hrs not 25hrs.
6. Forget all about Multi Engines until the IR. You will forget what you've done by the time need it for the IR and unnecessarily complicate the development of your experience at such an early stage when you are still getting to grips with Single Engine flying.
The exception to 6 is that in the US some do Multi Engine right after PPL and Night Qual., but then go on to do CPL in the twin too, so that does make sense for the benefit of Multi IR training later. But in my opinion, Multi Rating just by itself so early on, not necessarily beneficial.
Doing a CPL in a twin in UK is not normally affordable.
I personally did Multi Rating test the day after Multi IR test - be aware that in order to commence Multi IR training you must first do 6hrs Multi training. You do not need Multi test to do Multi IR test, but you do need Multi test to apply for Multi IR issue on your licence.
Regarding going to the US, my opinion is if at all possible avoid it.
Practical considerations and accomodation extras all add up and come not far short of the total that would have been required in UK. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE TRAIN IN THE UK. The Radio is much more strict here, and the vagaries of dealing with congested UK airspace and weather will stand you in MUCH better stead for your overall experience and confidence. In the US it is possible to go all the way to acheiving a UK/JAR CPL, but you will still have to do IR in UK (a conversion if you do the FAA IR in the US). This is a tall order if you do all this in the relatively benign US training environment and then face your first flying in the UK at the IR stage. Additionally, NDB use in US is all but non existent, and by training in UK you may be able to start gaining an appreciation of these as early as your PPL training. The best time to come across these for the very first time is not at the very outset of your IR training, when if you have been to the US you are also coping with the stricter Radio and other aspects mentioned before.
Having said all of that, I know of people who do it and get through, but I am aware that these can be issues coming back into UK flying.
So, in summary the issue of going to US is a personal one but I think there are more cons than pros.
Regarding the order in which you things, it nowhere near as much of a free choice as I get the impression you may think it is.
Above all else - CHECK LASORS and if in any doubt check your reading of it with someone qualified (head of training or senior instructor, or better still an external CAA person). In particular be careful to do your Night Training when you should - after the PPL and before the earlier of THE COMMENCEMENT of you IR or CPL training courses, whichever you decide to do first.
Hope this is helpful, and good luck!!!
(Happy to check errors in anything I have said of course!)
