CAA Statistics to reveal all Jan 2005
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CAA Statistics to reveal all Jan 2005
Good news...
From the 1st January 2005, the CAA, a UK public body will have to reveal statistics on pilot training success rates when asked; this is because this is the date when the Freedom of Information Act comes into force... this will help in informing training choices...
This Freedom of Information is active from 2005 in UK law and for a small fee a member of the general public or a journalist will be able to gain full access to statistics that for e.g. would show what percentage of fATPLs go on to get that coveted airline position...
It should be very interesting........It may be that the flying press may be fairly selective in their search for the truth although the mainstream press may be a little more objective..
Investing 60K to 100K in my view requires a full look at all the facts.. in the past the available data on this has been, lets say rather selective. The FAA are very up front with their stats come on CAA show us your hand!
At the moment some statistics are present that show that about 25 private pilots got IRs out of a total of about 30,000 private pilots as an example...
There is on the other hand very little information for members of the tax paying public (including pilots that subsidise this industry) to enable them to make informed choices based around other real data. We can exclude flying school comment like there is a 'big shortage' coming up of pilots etc.. due to some vested interest
It would be interesting to know for instance the pass rates at various test centres - which schools have the best pass rates?. Also what, why, and when policies are being changed and plans to incorporate an ICAO Multi-Pilot rating into FCL policy; minutes of meetings about this would be good..
We should be told the truth 'cos its our money.. don't you agree?
From the 1st January 2005, the CAA, a UK public body will have to reveal statistics on pilot training success rates when asked; this is because this is the date when the Freedom of Information Act comes into force... this will help in informing training choices...
This Freedom of Information is active from 2005 in UK law and for a small fee a member of the general public or a journalist will be able to gain full access to statistics that for e.g. would show what percentage of fATPLs go on to get that coveted airline position...
It should be very interesting........It may be that the flying press may be fairly selective in their search for the truth although the mainstream press may be a little more objective..
Investing 60K to 100K in my view requires a full look at all the facts.. in the past the available data on this has been, lets say rather selective. The FAA are very up front with their stats come on CAA show us your hand!
At the moment some statistics are present that show that about 25 private pilots got IRs out of a total of about 30,000 private pilots as an example...
There is on the other hand very little information for members of the tax paying public (including pilots that subsidise this industry) to enable them to make informed choices based around other real data. We can exclude flying school comment like there is a 'big shortage' coming up of pilots etc.. due to some vested interest
It would be interesting to know for instance the pass rates at various test centres - which schools have the best pass rates?. Also what, why, and when policies are being changed and plans to incorporate an ICAO Multi-Pilot rating into FCL policy; minutes of meetings about this would be good..
We should be told the truth 'cos its our money.. don't you agree?
Last edited by RVR800; 25th Nov 2004 at 08:58.
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I agree 100% and hope this is true. I doubt most of the business community would plough 50/60k into a venture without all the facts, especially the stats, enusuring no risks were being taken that didn't warrant the reward.
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I think you might be disappointed unless you are prepared to ask some probing questions. The CAA are required to publish a 'publication scheme' that lists all the data they intend to proactively publish. It already exists at on their website and doesn't represent any significant change to the status quo.
I asked the CAA what changes they were anticipating up in order to comply with the requirements of the FoI act. They said: "I do not expect any significant effect on FCL business, the CAA is already an open informative organisation. The Data Protection Act will continue to protect personal information that we hold."
The FoI act also allows them to withold commercially confidential information which is how they have, to date, classified pass rates of individual schools.
More info on the Freedom of Information Act 2000
I asked the CAA what changes they were anticipating up in order to comply with the requirements of the FoI act. They said: "I do not expect any significant effect on FCL business, the CAA is already an open informative organisation. The Data Protection Act will continue to protect personal information that we hold."
The FoI act also allows them to withold commercially confidential information which is how they have, to date, classified pass rates of individual schools.
More info on the Freedom of Information Act 2000
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Yes absolutely Alex but the Publication scheme is only the start for them. The law will in Jan 2005 require them to respond to ad-hoc public demands for info...
'As one sits in the exam room ticking those boxes it would be nice to know what statistical chance one has of success..........'
I am the customer....after all
And I dont just mean in passing those exams....thats only the start
You can according to UK law ask them for any none-exempt data
(Aggregated student pilot progression data would none-exempt) and they have 20 working days to respond from Jan 2005.
Clearly it may be have commercial implications if they revealed the percentage pass rates of particular schools so that data would be lumped together - although one could theoretically ask for the test centre stats
There is a cost to the person who asks for this data but it will be way less than the cost of just one hour in a twin! I get the feeling that their will be a lot of interest in this...especially from people about to fork out...and from journos..
'As one sits in the exam room ticking those boxes it would be nice to know what statistical chance one has of success..........'
I am the customer....after all
And I dont just mean in passing those exams....thats only the start
You can according to UK law ask them for any none-exempt data
(Aggregated student pilot progression data would none-exempt) and they have 20 working days to respond from Jan 2005.
Clearly it may be have commercial implications if they revealed the percentage pass rates of particular schools so that data would be lumped together - although one could theoretically ask for the test centre stats
There is a cost to the person who asks for this data but it will be way less than the cost of just one hour in a twin! I get the feeling that their will be a lot of interest in this...especially from people about to fork out...and from journos..
Last edited by RVR800; 24th Nov 2004 at 12:38.
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Very, very interesting. And about time too.
After all those years of guesswork, rumours and fumbling around in the dark we’re going to get some cold hard facts.
I’ll happily volunteer my time to chase up the CAA and ask any probing questions necessary to get as much data as possible. And regarding costs, surely it’s as worthy a use of the Pprune fund as any?
After all those years of guesswork, rumours and fumbling around in the dark we’re going to get some cold hard facts.
I’ll happily volunteer my time to chase up the CAA and ask any probing questions necessary to get as much data as possible. And regarding costs, surely it’s as worthy a use of the Pprune fund as any?
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Yes I think it is useful. The aim of the act is partly to empower the tax payer to see what public bodies are doing with THEIR money.
The act will facilitate the CAA's quest for ever greater openness and transparency
http://www.informationcommissioner.g...ual.aspx?id=33
The act will facilitate the CAA's quest for ever greater openness and transparency
http://www.informationcommissioner.g...ual.aspx?id=33
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It's debatable whether the plea of 'commercial confidence' is valid in the case of FTO's pass rates. The Act defines 'exempt' information quite closely. It will be interesting to watch!
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Statistical Review
In any case the SRG statistics page needs a review.
I get the impression that their intention is to show how busy they are; rather than to give any clear message to potential customers
Figures such as 866 pilots were issued with JAR CPLs last year
No figures on multi-crew type ratings...
I get the impression that their intention is to show how busy they are; rather than to give any clear message to potential customers
Figures such as 866 pilots were issued with JAR CPLs last year
No figures on multi-crew type ratings...
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There is on the other hand very little information for members of the tax paying public (subsidising pilots)
I don't remember being told I was subsidising pilots in my old job, I don't remember receiving any subsidy from the tax man during my training, and now working as a pilot I still can't see where I'm being subsidised. Oh, and I pay taxes too.
Sorry if I'm missing something obvious but this seems like a bizarre, irrelevant, nonsensical comment.
Having re-read your posts, if you're referring to tax payers money running the CAA then you're barking up the wrong tree. The CAA make money from flight charges, they receive nothing from the Government and they definitely don't hand out cash to pilots, in fact, it's quite the reverse. Have you seen how much a medical costs at the moment!
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Sorry I meant a subsidising pilot such as yourself and me who in effect subsidise this industry so that joe public pays less..
The Govt operates the CAA and it is accountable to UK Govt and ALL its taxpayers
Sorry to have given the wrong impression I really hit a raw nerve there didn't I ?
The Govt operates the CAA and it is accountable to UK Govt and ALL its taxpayers
Sorry to have given the wrong impression I really hit a raw nerve there didn't I ?
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I agree wholeheartedly about the ridiculous situation wannabe pilots find themselves in. I can't think of another industry where you have to pay such vast amounts for training with absolutely no guarantees at the end.
Just to clarify one point though, the government does not operate the CAA, the CAA advises the government on policy. The CAA is not accountable to the taxpayers, from the CAA website :
CAA Website
In fact, come to think of it, the Government, and therefore the taxpayer, actually make money from the CAA! DfT
I don't mean to nitpick, but your comments will be much more credible if they are directed at the right people.
Just to clarify one point though, the government does not operate the CAA, the CAA advises the government on policy. The CAA is not accountable to the taxpayers, from the CAA website :
The UK Government requires that the CAA’s costs are met entirely from its charges on those whom it regulates. Unlike many countries, including the other JAA member states, there is no direct Government funding of the CAA’s work.
In fact, come to think of it, the Government, and therefore the taxpayer, actually make money from the CAA! DfT
I don't mean to nitpick, but your comments will be much more credible if they are directed at the right people.
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The CAA is also a UK public body and as such falls under the Freedom of Information Act. Hence its participation in the Publication Scheme.
Contacting the CAA for info will come in Jan 2005 when the act is in force.
Contacting the CAA for info will come in Jan 2005 when the act is in force.
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I agree with Alex. It will be very interesting to watch.
For those interested the relevant document can be found here
As I understand it the CAA would only be able to restrict information on an FTO’s pass rates if they think that the FTO concerned would be able to take legal action against them as a result.
For those interested the relevant document can be found here
As I understand it the CAA would only be able to restrict information on an FTO’s pass rates if they think that the FTO concerned would be able to take legal action against them as a result.
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Read on. It's only a 'confidence' if the FTO provides the CAA with the information. If the CAA creates the information itself no confidence exists therefore there can be no breach of confidence.
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I was under the impression that at least some of the data was supplied by the FTO’s? If this is not the case then I can’t see that there is any way the CAA could withhold the information?
And that sounds like pretty good news for wannabes.
And that sounds like pretty good news for wannabes.
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It is about time the results were made public. I would also like to see the pass rate of different examiniers with different FTO's.
Alex I had understood the CAA had provided pass rates for the different ground schools?
Alex I had understood the CAA had provided pass rates for the different ground schools?
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Yes, we know our own pass rates but they won't tell us anyone else's. No one can say 'highest pass rate' etc..
There are actually some very good reasons why pass rates on their own don't tell the full story... Do you put your students through selection tests? Do you take on students who have already failed at other schools? Do you have a high proportion of students for whom English is not a first language? The same goes for flight test pass rates, you have to know a bit more than the pass rate to get the full picture.
There are actually some very good reasons why pass rates on their own don't tell the full story... Do you put your students through selection tests? Do you take on students who have already failed at other schools? Do you have a high proportion of students for whom English is not a first language? The same goes for flight test pass rates, you have to know a bit more than the pass rate to get the full picture.
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Well, schools could volunteer their pass rates to be independently published by the CAA.
I know one school at cranfield who would love to have this happen.
Its known in the industry which schools have the highest pass rates. Its just not easy for the wannabee to find this out.
I know one school at cranfield who would love to have this happen.
Its known in the industry which schools have the highest pass rates. Its just not easy for the wannabee to find this out.
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[Edited to remove late night rant]
Have you considered posting under your real name Stuart? It's good manners, at least, for owners of FTOs to make it clear who they are when they post.
Have you considered posting under your real name Stuart? It's good manners, at least, for owners of FTOs to make it clear who they are when they post.
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 25th Nov 2004 at 07:13.
Its not a hard rule but we would very much prefer it if FTO owners/managers would show that fact either in their username or profile. Its good manners and is far more likely to engender support for your views than trying to remain anonymous. Have two names if you so wish.
If everyone followed Alexs example of posting in his own name, developing trust over time by the nature of his posts, then that would be of benefit to everyone.
ON the thread topic. It would indeed be very interesting to see the relationship between IRs issued and Multi IRs issued. That is to say the number of people who completed basic training but never went on to fly anything other than single pilot aircraft i.e. never made the airlines.
We'd then have a failure rate for the whole training process. It would be interesting to see - 10% of PPL's went onto multicrew flying, 60% of CPL's. 82% of IR holders etc etc.
Pass rates for inividual schools is a false holy grail. As Alex said - school intakes vary wildly. Just as in the educational environment - a school in Brixton may be fantastic if it gets half its pupils through half their GCSEs. Whereas a school in Buckingham may be rubbish for achieving exactly the same pass rate.
And it does vary hugely. Some FTO's lean towards selection only. Some have lots of foreign students because there are lots fo foreign language schools in the same area. Some schools specialise in converting ex-military experienced pilots. Some schools make you train on and on to ensure first time passes but thats expensive. Others may put you up for test the minute you stand a chance which is cheaper but riskier.
Pass rates are a very poor guide. I should not like to see them published for individual schools as they will distort the market. Schools will start chasing the published data to the detriment of wise training decisions.
We all know who the good schools are and which are a little shaky. Its no harder than getting in the car and going there for a couple of hours and talking to current students. Go to at least 5 FTOs and you'll see quite a difference. It will be obvious which seem better to you.
Cheers
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Cheers
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If everyone followed Alexs example of posting in his own name, developing trust over time by the nature of his posts, then that would be of benefit to everyone.
ON the thread topic. It would indeed be very interesting to see the relationship between IRs issued and Multi IRs issued. That is to say the number of people who completed basic training but never went on to fly anything other than single pilot aircraft i.e. never made the airlines.
We'd then have a failure rate for the whole training process. It would be interesting to see - 10% of PPL's went onto multicrew flying, 60% of CPL's. 82% of IR holders etc etc.
Pass rates for inividual schools is a false holy grail. As Alex said - school intakes vary wildly. Just as in the educational environment - a school in Brixton may be fantastic if it gets half its pupils through half their GCSEs. Whereas a school in Buckingham may be rubbish for achieving exactly the same pass rate.
And it does vary hugely. Some FTO's lean towards selection only. Some have lots of foreign students because there are lots fo foreign language schools in the same area. Some schools specialise in converting ex-military experienced pilots. Some schools make you train on and on to ensure first time passes but thats expensive. Others may put you up for test the minute you stand a chance which is cheaper but riskier.
Pass rates are a very poor guide. I should not like to see them published for individual schools as they will distort the market. Schools will start chasing the published data to the detriment of wise training decisions.
We all know who the good schools are and which are a little shaky. Its no harder than getting in the car and going there for a couple of hours and talking to current students. Go to at least 5 FTOs and you'll see quite a difference. It will be obvious which seem better to you.
Cheers
WWW
Cheers
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