Most realistic flight sim software, opinions?
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Most realistic flight sim software, opinions?
I'm planning on eventually getting a PPL or a RPP, but right now I just want to start studying on my own first and get familiar with things so that when I actually begin the training I'll be able to move along quickly.
I was wondering if any of you has tried out different flight sim softwares and know which one is the most realistic and would help the most in actually learning to fly, rather than just being a "game" for entertainment.
I've heard microsoft flight sim is pretty good... is there much difference between the 2002 and 2004 versions, as far as helping one to learn goes? Are there other softwares out there you guys think is better for this purpose?
thanks a lot
K.R.
I was wondering if any of you has tried out different flight sim softwares and know which one is the most realistic and would help the most in actually learning to fly, rather than just being a "game" for entertainment.
I've heard microsoft flight sim is pretty good... is there much difference between the 2002 and 2004 versions, as far as helping one to learn goes? Are there other softwares out there you guys think is better for this purpose?
thanks a lot
K.R.
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Have to agree with GJB. Flight Sim ok, but u may find yourself fixing your eyes on the instruments too much....you want to be looking outa that screen!...only difference between '02-'04......the price!IMHO.For the professional training: found that R.A.N.T is great for the IR. Got 'On top' which is ok for a bit of CPL/IR consolidation.(PA28R) Good luck withyour PPL.:ok
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MS FS2002 is OK, if you're using the UK Photographic Scenery package, which can help with VFR navigation / map reading practice - I've used it many times for checking out routes before flying them for real and it has been exceptional - however, it is only as good as its up to date accuracy and there are no plans to issue new photo patches as far as I'm aware (my own area has changed a fair bit recently). You also need a fairly high end machine with exceptional graphics for it to be of any benefit.
Check out:
www.visualflight.co.uk
Apart from this personal note, the earlier replies are on the ball.
Check out:
www.visualflight.co.uk
Apart from this personal note, the earlier replies are on the ball.
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I haven't heard of Rant, can anyone post me a URL where i can read up on it?
I wouldn't mind using some software to help the ole flying.
What part of your flying does RANT focus on, im only pre PPL at present, but looking at taking my flying further.
I wouldn't mind using some software to help the ole flying.
What part of your flying does RANT focus on, im only pre PPL at present, but looking at taking my flying further.
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You can download FlightGear for free from here
http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/binary.html
It's free, GPL'd software. You need a fast system though with a video card that can do opengl. It doesn't run all that well on my "ancient" 650 hz machine
You can download a demo of xplane here. Runs for 5 minutes, then on autopilot only
http://x-plane.com/
Note, both downloads are *big* ~ 80 meg !
As for what's more realisitc, I think that they are all pretty similar, and only have subtle differences. Xplane *has* been approved by the FAA for training (in combination with the right hardware), so it might have a slight edge.
MSFS2002 (or even 2000 if you can find a copy and probably cheaper), are both pretty similar. MSFS strong suit is the scenery.
Mike
GJB,
>Flight Sim is good fun only.
Do you not think that *anything* can be learned from a sim ?
MSFS is a big reason why I learned to fly.
I didn\'t know *anything* about the inside of a plane or piloting until I fired up MSFS. The lessons that are included (Machado) are a great intro IMO.
I still play with it just for the fun of it, and when I can\'t afford to fly for real, usally either "flying" t&g\'s at my home airport, or practicing IFR.
It\'s great for practicing x-c, and for mentally reheasing flying through controlled airspace, which there\'s a lot of around my airport (CNC3, Brampton Ont).
As for being "fixated" on instruments, I never had that problem when I started to fly for real. Even in the sim, I divide my attention bewteen the "outside" and inside the same as for real.
Mike
http://www.flightgear.org/Downloads/binary.html
It's free, GPL'd software. You need a fast system though with a video card that can do opengl. It doesn't run all that well on my "ancient" 650 hz machine
You can download a demo of xplane here. Runs for 5 minutes, then on autopilot only
http://x-plane.com/
Note, both downloads are *big* ~ 80 meg !
As for what's more realisitc, I think that they are all pretty similar, and only have subtle differences. Xplane *has* been approved by the FAA for training (in combination with the right hardware), so it might have a slight edge.
MSFS2002 (or even 2000 if you can find a copy and probably cheaper), are both pretty similar. MSFS strong suit is the scenery.
Mike
GJB,
>Flight Sim is good fun only.
Do you not think that *anything* can be learned from a sim ?
MSFS is a big reason why I learned to fly.
I didn\'t know *anything* about the inside of a plane or piloting until I fired up MSFS. The lessons that are included (Machado) are a great intro IMO.
I still play with it just for the fun of it, and when I can\'t afford to fly for real, usally either "flying" t&g\'s at my home airport, or practicing IFR.
It\'s great for practicing x-c, and for mentally reheasing flying through controlled airspace, which there\'s a lot of around my airport (CNC3, Brampton Ont).
As for being "fixated" on instruments, I never had that problem when I started to fly for real. Even in the sim, I divide my attention bewteen the "outside" and inside the same as for real.
Mike
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I have now bought ELITE and think it is the best software out there for instrument practice. RANT is cool to start with, but once you know what to do with the instruments its usefulness falls rapidly. FS2002/4 is OK but like X-Plane is much too finicky, pinickity and annoying to be useful. ELITE is about as close to practicing like you fly that you are likely to get without speding sh*t loads. It even works on a basic machine. Price is about £80 for the 172/Archer version now I think (recent price slash). Their email support is very good too.
www.flyelite.ch.
www.flyelite.ch.
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thanks guys
but yea anyone know where I can find more info on RANT? I looked up gamespot and google but couldn't find it.
I'll certainly check out flightgear too since it's free
but yea anyone know where I can find more info on RANT? I looked up gamespot and google but couldn't find it.
I'll certainly check out flightgear too since it's free
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For what it's worth, if you're still to do your PPL, I would suggest either MSFS 2002/4 (as long as your machine is up to it) 2004 looks slightly prettier) I still use both.
It's good for the mid range of speeds, i.e. climbs, turns, straight and level and gives a good appreciation of how all the instruments work. Not too good at the edges of the envelope (stall/spin etc.).
RANT, will be of use when you come to do the IMC/IR, but PPL is on the cards at the moment and RANT is a bit overkill in my opinion. As you move on Proflight professional, (used to be free), RANT, Elite, the costs start elevating though, could all have use.
It's good for the mid range of speeds, i.e. climbs, turns, straight and level and gives a good appreciation of how all the instruments work. Not too good at the edges of the envelope (stall/spin etc.).
RANT, will be of use when you come to do the IMC/IR, but PPL is on the cards at the moment and RANT is a bit overkill in my opinion. As you move on Proflight professional, (used to be free), RANT, Elite, the costs start elevating though, could all have use.
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Don't think anyone has actually mentioned so far that RANT is not a sim in the sense I believe you are wanting in that you do not use joystick etc. but you hit a 'turn' button then a 'stop turn' button and do on.
It is great training for your full IR as it is a procedural trainer but I would have thought of very little use for PPL.
It is great training for your full IR as it is a procedural trainer but I would have thought of very little use for PPL.
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well that's good to know.. heh. I'm just concerned with PPL right now and that's probably as far as I'll go (not planning to make this a career, just for fun). I don't even know what IMC/IR is...
so I guess I should just go with MSFS then. The 2004 has the virtual cockpit where you can turn knobs/switches with the mouse, although I'm not sure how well it'd run on my 1.3GHz system.
oh btw I wanted to ask what kind of hardware setup you guys use. do you just use a simple joystick with keyboard rudder control? or is it any better to get a rotatable joystick and use that as rudder control
so I guess I should just go with MSFS then. The 2004 has the virtual cockpit where you can turn knobs/switches with the mouse, although I'm not sure how well it'd run on my 1.3GHz system.
oh btw I wanted to ask what kind of hardware setup you guys use. do you just use a simple joystick with keyboard rudder control? or is it any better to get a rotatable joystick and use that as rudder control
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Yeah well if I had actually read the question properly then I might be more use than a chocolate teapot!
ELITE and RANT are hopeless for a PPL. Where VFR flying is an art, IFR is a science and that is where sims do pay real dividends.
For your PPL MSFS is more than enough to get the hang of the procedures but, IMHO, won't help at all with the flying; it may even make things worse as you can't really develop the right VFR habits with a sim as they are so different.
If you are like me, then after the first couple of hours you realise how pointless it is trying to practice PPL stuff in a sim.
Good luck with the PPL!
HWD.
ELITE and RANT are hopeless for a PPL. Where VFR flying is an art, IFR is a science and that is where sims do pay real dividends.
For your PPL MSFS is more than enough to get the hang of the procedures but, IMHO, won't help at all with the flying; it may even make things worse as you can't really develop the right VFR habits with a sim as they are so different.
If you are like me, then after the first couple of hours you realise how pointless it is trying to practice PPL stuff in a sim.
Good luck with the PPL!
HWD.
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I use 2002 because the photographic VFR scenery is apparently better on 02 than 04 - on a RAID P4 2.4GHz XP Pro platform with 1 GB RAM and a 256MB Graphics card, with CH Products Yoke and Rudder Pedals.
You'd think I've got it made for VFR flying but I get problems such as left turning tendency - one click of right rudder trim does not even it out - I get right turning tendency, and maintaining Straight and Level flight is only achieved by flying the aircraft hands-on at all times, otherwise you're up and down like the Assyrian Empire. Add to that the self induced gyro errors that throw the DI out by about 5 degrees per minute and a bloody annoying ATC that insists I change frequency every few minutes to controllers that don't exist in real life and I've got a higher workload than I would experience in the real world.
Which isn't altogether a bad thing as taking up a real C-172 or Archer then becomes quite pleasurable with little profanity - I couldn't speak to real controllers the way I address their cyber-ethereal colleagues.
But, as I posted earlier, VFR photographic scenery, with VFR terrain and GB airports, used with real charts and approach plates is a major step forward for very cheap, effective FNPT training - even if not officially recognised. I c***ed up the NDB/DME approach into my home field the other day and have been praticing now at home to work out what I was doing wrong - for the grand total of £0 and 00p. It WILL be better this afternoon.
You'd think I've got it made for VFR flying but I get problems such as left turning tendency - one click of right rudder trim does not even it out - I get right turning tendency, and maintaining Straight and Level flight is only achieved by flying the aircraft hands-on at all times, otherwise you're up and down like the Assyrian Empire. Add to that the self induced gyro errors that throw the DI out by about 5 degrees per minute and a bloody annoying ATC that insists I change frequency every few minutes to controllers that don't exist in real life and I've got a higher workload than I would experience in the real world.
Which isn't altogether a bad thing as taking up a real C-172 or Archer then becomes quite pleasurable with little profanity - I couldn't speak to real controllers the way I address their cyber-ethereal colleagues.
But, as I posted earlier, VFR photographic scenery, with VFR terrain and GB airports, used with real charts and approach plates is a major step forward for very cheap, effective FNPT training - even if not officially recognised. I c***ed up the NDB/DME approach into my home field the other day and have been praticing now at home to work out what I was doing wrong - for the grand total of £0 and 00p. It WILL be better this afternoon.
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hwd :
>but, IMHO, won't help at all with the flying; it may even make things worse as you can't really develop the right VFR habits with a sim as they are so different.
I'm interested in hearing your rationale for that statement.
IMO one of the basics of VFR flying is learning how the aircraft attitude in relation to the horizon affects the airspeed, climb and descent rates, and rate of turn. This can all be introduced nicely in the sim.
After control of the aircraft is somewhat "mastered", the other big part of VFR flying is situational / position awareness. While the "external views" in a sim, are not quite as good as the real thing, they are still pretty good. MSFS in particular has always been very strong with the scenery, and there are easy to use tools available to make the scenery even more realistic.
I've used the sim to rehearse x-c flights too. Much more interesting and more fun than only doing a "paper map" rehearsal.
Airline training is almost entirely done in sims these days, as well as training in business jets, military aircraft, etc.
I don't think the precise realism of the sim is the crucial factor in learning. What is important, is that it gives you an environment where you can "think flying", and stay mentally sharp. Unless you have the $$$ to fly all of the time, a flight sim is the next best thing.
>You\'d think I\'ve got it made for VFR flying but I get problems such as left turning tendency - one click of right rudder trim does not even it out - I get right turning tendency, and maintaining Straight and Level flight is only achieved by flying the aircraft hands-on at all times, otherwise you\'re up and down like the Assyrian Empire.
What plane are you using?
Most of the default aircraft are not setup very well. Why? Who knows. They tend to be *very* pithc sensitive. Go to www.avsim.com, or flightsim.com, and download something with better flight dynamics.
> a bloody annoying ATC that insists I change frequency every few minutes
I\'ve never used the built in ATC.
If you want to practice ATC, I\'d suggest joing up on one of the online ATC\'s, i.e. "vatsim". I don\'t use it myself, but apparently some of the guys take it pretty seriously, and adhere pretty closely to "real life" controlling.
Mike
>but, IMHO, won't help at all with the flying; it may even make things worse as you can't really develop the right VFR habits with a sim as they are so different.
I'm interested in hearing your rationale for that statement.
IMO one of the basics of VFR flying is learning how the aircraft attitude in relation to the horizon affects the airspeed, climb and descent rates, and rate of turn. This can all be introduced nicely in the sim.
After control of the aircraft is somewhat "mastered", the other big part of VFR flying is situational / position awareness. While the "external views" in a sim, are not quite as good as the real thing, they are still pretty good. MSFS in particular has always been very strong with the scenery, and there are easy to use tools available to make the scenery even more realistic.
I've used the sim to rehearse x-c flights too. Much more interesting and more fun than only doing a "paper map" rehearsal.
Airline training is almost entirely done in sims these days, as well as training in business jets, military aircraft, etc.
I don't think the precise realism of the sim is the crucial factor in learning. What is important, is that it gives you an environment where you can "think flying", and stay mentally sharp. Unless you have the $$$ to fly all of the time, a flight sim is the next best thing.
>You\'d think I\'ve got it made for VFR flying but I get problems such as left turning tendency - one click of right rudder trim does not even it out - I get right turning tendency, and maintaining Straight and Level flight is only achieved by flying the aircraft hands-on at all times, otherwise you\'re up and down like the Assyrian Empire.
What plane are you using?
Most of the default aircraft are not setup very well. Why? Who knows. They tend to be *very* pithc sensitive. Go to www.avsim.com, or flightsim.com, and download something with better flight dynamics.
> a bloody annoying ATC that insists I change frequency every few minutes
I\'ve never used the built in ATC.
If you want to practice ATC, I\'d suggest joing up on one of the online ATC\'s, i.e. "vatsim". I don\'t use it myself, but apparently some of the guys take it pretty seriously, and adhere pretty closely to "real life" controlling.
Mike
Last edited by mstram; 25th Jul 2004 at 19:20.
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well i tried out flightgear... it doesn't run well on my system at all... the refresh rate I got was about 1Hz, and there's a about half a second delay to all my inputs. and then after a while it froze and died
I'm gonna get MSFS 02 or 04 tomorrow and see how it goes
I'm gonna get MSFS 02 or 04 tomorrow and see how it goes
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As I stated in another forum, MSFS helped me a lot in my PPL training so I totlally disagree with the negative comments that have been made so far. I was able to do ex1-19 in 30hrs. People have problems during the transition from sims to aircraft because they learnt the wrong way. I used trevor thom book 1. I learnt to fly using the horizon as a so I had no problem when it came to the real thing. And aas has been said above the PC sims can be very useful for practsing Navs.
I'm currently using the baron on FS2004 to practise for my MEIR. Then I'll only need about 5hrs in the real thing before i face the examiner
Capt. M
I'm currently using the baron on FS2004 to practise for my MEIR. Then I'll only need about 5hrs in the real thing before i face the examiner
Capt. M
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High Wing Drifter,
Thanks for raising that point 
I have been on to the Elite web-site, and the cost of the core version that you were talking about was about £67. It seems though that they want to charge £17 for postage. I'm very tempted to buy a copy 
POL
Price is about £80 for the 172/Archer version now I think (recent price slash).
I have been on to the Elite web-site, and the cost of the core version that you were talking about was about £67. It seems though that they want to charge £17 for postage. I'm very tempted to buy a copy POL
Flight Sims for learning
I'll try to provide the factual info first. RANT can be found at www.oddsoft.co.uk. Although useless for teaching you to fly an aeroplane in terms of 'stick'n'rudder' skills, it is great for practicing radio navigation at all levels, even for the PPL. Seeing how something works can be instantly more enlightening than reading about it.
Now for my two penneth on flight sims, or in particular their relevance for light aircraft. Having done plenty of flying, plenty of gliding and the occasional bit of simming (all post-PPL), my own personal recommendation would be to exercise caution in using a PC flight sim to learn to fly, especially if you've no prior experience of using the real thing.
If you have got some real hours, a flight sim can - in many ways - be beneficial for keeping sharp and in practice. However you'd be operating from a position of strength, so to speak, knowing from experience how the PC will differ from the real thing.
If you learn on a PC before climbing into a real aircraft, you may be in for some rather significant surprises. Some examples of which include control forces, trimming and judging the flare and roundout when landing. Trimming is perhaps the second-most vital skill involved in VFR flying (after performing a good lookout) and a computer flight sim does not really teach one to trim particularly accurately. Perhaps I'm alone in this view, but I trim by 'feel' and without that feel (and you don't get it in MSFS, for example) you have to compensate in other ways.
There was an interesting TV programme on the other day, about a x-hundred hour PC flight simmer who tried to have a go at landing a light aircraft. He flew a stable final approach but the instructor had to take it over for the flare. It was mentioned in the Flying Instructors & Examiners forum and they put their own spin on the topic of computer flight sims.
My personal advice would be to get the first few hours of your PPL training under your belt first, then use the PC to train further once you have had a taste of the real thing. Failing that, at least do some homework on how you should be learning to fly and the pitfalls to avoid if learning to do it on a PC.
Cheers
Charley
Now for my two penneth on flight sims, or in particular their relevance for light aircraft. Having done plenty of flying, plenty of gliding and the occasional bit of simming (all post-PPL), my own personal recommendation would be to exercise caution in using a PC flight sim to learn to fly, especially if you've no prior experience of using the real thing.
If you have got some real hours, a flight sim can - in many ways - be beneficial for keeping sharp and in practice. However you'd be operating from a position of strength, so to speak, knowing from experience how the PC will differ from the real thing.
If you learn on a PC before climbing into a real aircraft, you may be in for some rather significant surprises. Some examples of which include control forces, trimming and judging the flare and roundout when landing. Trimming is perhaps the second-most vital skill involved in VFR flying (after performing a good lookout) and a computer flight sim does not really teach one to trim particularly accurately. Perhaps I'm alone in this view, but I trim by 'feel' and without that feel (and you don't get it in MSFS, for example) you have to compensate in other ways.
There was an interesting TV programme on the other day, about a x-hundred hour PC flight simmer who tried to have a go at landing a light aircraft. He flew a stable final approach but the instructor had to take it over for the flare. It was mentioned in the Flying Instructors & Examiners forum and they put their own spin on the topic of computer flight sims.
My personal advice would be to get the first few hours of your PPL training under your belt first, then use the PC to train further once you have had a taste of the real thing. Failing that, at least do some homework on how you should be learning to fly and the pitfalls to avoid if learning to do it on a PC.
Cheers
Charley
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Any sim is very useful for practicing instrument approaches for the IMC. I used MSFS2002. I set the cloud at about 1000' and fly different profiles from different directions. It is so satisfying to pop out of the cloud with the runway right where it should be. It is particularly useful to help you get to grips with NDB approaches. Setting random wind gets you used to which way the ADF moves and what you have to do to correct it. It also helps in coordinating descent out of the hold onto the ILS and doing procedure turns onto final track etc.
Of course its not perfect and ultimately no substitute for the real thing, but it certainly saved me a few hours in the air. Getting my head round the ADF was the most difficult part of the IMC course for me.
Of course its not perfect and ultimately no substitute for the real thing, but it certainly saved me a few hours in the air. Getting my head round the ADF was the most difficult part of the IMC course for me.
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hey Charley thanks for the post. I was just going to ask about the exact same thing and you answered a step in front of me.
I've just started using MSFS a bit, and I've found it's virtually impossible to use the keyboard as rudder control (so gotta leave auto-rudder on). and you're right about the trimming, using keyboard for trimming is quite annoying too (takes me like 30 seconds to trim everytime). I'm planning to re-assignm the trim control to my mouse wheel and see if that helps.
but anyway, back on topic, so what are some of the bad habbit I should avoid while trying to learn on a flight sim, and what are the good ones to develope? I probably won't be able to start real flight training anytime soon (going away for school pretty soon), but I'll prepare as much as I can with the sim.
It'll probably take some motivation to keep up at it though, heh, I actually don't even LIKE flight sims... lol. I'm doing it solely for learning purpose. If I wasn't trying to get a PPL I probably would never touch MSFS...
I've just started using MSFS a bit, and I've found it's virtually impossible to use the keyboard as rudder control (so gotta leave auto-rudder on). and you're right about the trimming, using keyboard for trimming is quite annoying too (takes me like 30 seconds to trim everytime). I'm planning to re-assignm the trim control to my mouse wheel and see if that helps.
but anyway, back on topic, so what are some of the bad habbit I should avoid while trying to learn on a flight sim, and what are the good ones to develope? I probably won't be able to start real flight training anytime soon (going away for school pretty soon), but I'll prepare as much as I can with the sim.
It'll probably take some motivation to keep up at it though, heh, I actually don't even LIKE flight sims... lol. I'm doing it solely for learning purpose. If I wasn't trying to get a PPL I probably would never touch MSFS...