Best MCC for the money?

[caramel]

Don't forget if you do it on an approved full motion sim it goes towards unfreezing the ATPL as 100 hours can be used on a simulator and no more than 25 on a FNPT.

just a thought

[November Whiskey]

Did mine with Jetlinx a couple of weeks ago on the A320 at BA's Cranebank facility...

I thoroughly enjoyed the course. The groundschool was well pitched, interesting and concise. The sim phase was fantastic!
Really enjoyed the A320 and feel I have gained a useful insight into working on an advance jet using MCC principles and SOP's.

My 'Sim Buddy' for the week was a Jaguar Pilot (an interesting flight deck experience gradient!) but we worked well as a team within the SOP's which I guess is just what they're there for!

I do appreciate what people are saying about "do the cheapest course, don't worry about the aircraft type" but with hindsight, I wouldn't change my choice.


Thumbs up to Cam, Keith, Stuart and Co.

[redsnail]

I would definitely get clarification on that point from the CAA.
From reading LASORS, Section G1.2 Notes, you're right about the 100 hours in a Flight Simulator however, that is usually referring to time spent on a conversion course for an aircraft type rating.

An MCC isn't a type rating. An MCC is teaching folks how to behave/communicate in a two or more crew situation. It isn't teaching you how to fly that aircraft. From LASORS Section F MCC, you can get a reduction of the amount of hours required if you are using the same flight simulator for both the MCC training and the type rating training. This must be done within 6 months.

[Hufty]

I did mine on a jet and am very glad I did - when it came to a jet simulator assessment I was much more comfortable with the environment than I think I would have been. It probably made the difference between getting through or not getting through.

Bournemouth on the L1011 Tristar - great fun and a good opportunity to "fly" a classic old airliner that you'll certainly never get to fly for real. Doing it on an FMS equipped sim though might help you in your type rating training.

[BillieBob]

caramel - redsnail is quite right, modular MCC training does not count towards the requirements for ATPL issue, or anything else apart from the MCC requirement. Only if the MCC is integral with the type rating course do the hours count.

send clowns - Quite correct. With a few notable exceptions (take-off, landing, emergency descent, etc.) all MCC training should be done with the autopilot engaged, the CAA inspectors are most insistent on this point.

However, quite wrong about your course being the first in the country to be approved, on the contrary, it is currently the last. There are no grandfather rights for the MCC course since it was not a requirement until the advent of JAR-FCL 1. The first courses to be approved would have been those of the integrated schools, OATS, BAe, etc.

If there is any advantage to doing the MCC course on a jet, which I doubt, it is more likely to come from familiarity with the modern flight deck, not from something unrepresentative like the L1011, however jolly it was to fly.

[Send Clowns]

I understood that the MCC although a certain standard of sim and instructor was required, and a certain syllabus had to be covered, was not itself an approved course until 1 Jan 2004. Hence grandfather rights came for those in operation before this time. I may be wrong, I work on ATPL groundschool not MCC.

[caramel]

redsnail - You are right got a bit ahead of myself. It was a discussion on another topic I posted logging sim hours as flight hours and I found out from the CAA that you can log the hours if on a type rating course but not on a MCC

my bad

[arfur-sixpence]

A post from michaelknight explaining his background:

Posted 9th July 2003:

....."I am basing these opinions from my experience working in the airlines as a pilot and have in the past been directly involved in the recruiting process myself".....

So watch out chaps!

then he should have a better idea of what MCC is about. The CAA would have you fly everything on autopilot if possible - including take-off and landing. You DO NOT have to fly the aeroplane with an MCC - you are in fact actively discouraged from doing so - because you are supposed to be learning how to work together as part of a crew using a airline-type SOP.

If you want to fly the sim, then hire it for some extra hours. In fact, for anyone going on to do an interview I would reccommend doing just that.

Another thought - if you do your MCC as part of an integrated course you only need to do 15 hours. If you do a modular one it is 20 hours. Those extra 5 hours make a HUGE difference.

MK - the sim manager at Jerez manages to piss of EVERYONE - especially those students who fly with him!

I stand by what I said before - the instructor counts for more than the sim.

[PPRuNe Towers]

arfur's final sentence admirably sums up PPRuNe policy on this. Word of mouth will bring you the names of those conducting MCC training with a stellar reputation.

Not the company, not the sim. The human being in the cab with you.

If doubtful buy a tame professional pilot a pint, those with many, many sim sessions signed up over the years in the same, identical sim. Each experience is made utterly different by the person behind them. They value they gained from each sim detail is entirely dependent on that person alone.

Rob Lloyd

[arfur-sixpence]

Ojuka,

Find the cheapest jet sim you can. I did mine on an ancient HS125 sim with no motion and no visuals. It DID make the difference when it came to getting my first job.

very interesting - that will be hard to justify to the CAA/JAA as a JAR approved visual system is one requirements for an FNPT2 (MCC) qualification for the device.

Hope your employers don't mind your MCC certificate being invalid!!!

[Ojuka]

Please re-read my post.

I never had a requirement to sit an MCC course.

And hence do not hold an MCC certificate.

[arfur-sixpence]

And remember, you are not being examined on your personal handling skills on an MCC course.

Find the cheapest jet sim you can. I did mine on an ancient HS125 sim with no motion and no visuals. It DID make the difference when it came to getting my first job.

not a very clear post - it would intimate that you did an MCC on a non-visual equipped sim. Not to worry, misunderstanding now cleared up.

The point remains that as long as the device is suitably qualified, it doesn't matter what it is (for the purposes of regulation).

I can fully understand a sponsor airline requiring a jet FNPT2 if their sponsored cadets are going on to jet aeroplanes - mainly because in those cases the courses are usually longer than the minimum MCC (i.e. Jet Orientation Courses) andf the extra time is used to hone the handling skills and REALLY polish the SOPs.

For a normal MCC there is some merit in using a jet sim, as long as the students are up to dealing with the extra speed , as the extra challenge will stretch you mentally and then you may gain more from it. But for an average to low average student then this may actually have a negative effect - the aircraft workload may well detract from theMCC skills training.

For michealknight, this is why the auotpilot is used - to free up capacity to actually "operate" as opposed to just "fly".

[BillieBob]

I understood that the MCC.....was not itself an approved course until 1 Jan 2004.

You may be thinking of the MCC Instructor course, which was introduced in Amendment 3 to JAR-FCL 1. MCC courses have been approved ever since JAR-FCL 1 was first implementd