FAA ATPL hours

[McGreaser]

Want to do my FAA ATPL exams but went thru modular training and when l add up my P1 hours they are way short of the required hours. My question is does the FAA accept PIUS towards PI or they is no way round it besides to fly them at one's expense. Logging P2 time under PI then the commander's signature is one option which l still fail to understand since l won't be actually PI. Thanx in advance......

[minus273]

Hey there,

I am guessing that you are asking if you can log Pilot In Command Under Supervision as PIC?!

Now not to be rude as I try not to be, but if you read this out allowed to yourself you will see how much of an Oxymoron that statement is. You are either PIC or you are not, if you have an instructor by your side and you make a mistake he/she corrects it, this means that you are not making the ultimate decision.

In the FAA system there is no equivalent to PIUS, you would have the choice of PIC(P1), SIC(Time as FO in a Multi-crew aircraft) or Dual.

You can do the exams without the required hours, you just will not be able to do the the flight test. The exams are vaild for 24 calander months from the date of taking them.

You can use the SIC time when as stated in the regs it has been obtained by operating in a multi-crew aircraft carrying out the duties of PIC, in otherwords time flown as FO on a multi-crew aircraft. When you have actually been flying the plane as an FO rather than as a warm body in the right hand seat.

So you could not use your Dual(P2) time from flying your warrior with your Instructor.

Other requirments:

(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time. 1500hrs TT
(2) 100 hours of night flight time.
(3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions.

You will also have to make sure that your X-C time is made up of flights that are over 50nm with a landing.

Anyways sorry that the answer is so long-winded, it may be better to state what you do have with regard to hours and see what you are missing and go from there?!

Well hope this helped a little, I am sure someone else can fill in what is missing.

-273

[ANGELOPINTO]

I AM FAA CFI-CFII-MEI AND ALSO JAA FI SE AND ME.
FAA IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM JAA.
UNDER FAA WHEN YOU TAKE DUAL IF YOU HAVE THE RATING FOR THE AIRCRAFT YOU CAN LOG PIC, SO ALL YOUR TIME WITH FI AFTER THE PPL EXAM YOU CAN USE IT AS PIC FOR THE ATPL FAA, ALSO YOUR PIC UNDER SUPERVISION YOU CAN USE IT AS PIC TIME FOR THE FAA.

['I' in the sky]

It depends on whether the P1us you have logged is legitimite P1us, ie it has been logged as the result of a succesful flight test (test for the issue or renewal of a license or rating, NOT monthly club checkouts, circuit checks etc) in which case it is legitimitely in the P1 column of your log book and can be used to satisfy the requirements.

minus273, the US equivalent of this is that you just call a succesful check ride P1 don't you ?

Your comment 'You are either PIC or you are not, if you have an instructor by your side etc etc .......' - now not to be rude as I try not to be - shows that you do not know your FARs. Somebody with a Private Pilot certificate receiving training for an Instrument ticket may quite legitimitely log the instruction received as P1 so long as they are the sole manipulator of the controls, ie they don't f*** up to the point where the instructor has to bail them out.

[minus273]

Hey there I in the Sky:

I do know the rules about being able to log time after receiving a rating I also know examiners and FAA FSDO people who will not allow it to be used. Strange even though it is in the Regs?!?

I was typing a paragraph about that but removed it as I did not want the person to log this go to the US and then be told it was not vaild.

I have seen people log things and get past the DPE later to be pulled up by the FSDO and told that they can not do it. This will of course mean removal of your licence.

The JAA in some schools has SPIC or PIUS, they claim that it is PIC with the instructor on board, when you actually look into it is actually Dual given. Usually as they are making up for time that the syllabus does not allow, They still log it as the PIC as that is what the syllabus says.

When riding with the examiner it is not PIUS it is PIC time, this is your first time, if you are PPL, that you will log PIC with a passenger on board. Yes he is an examiner and yes he will take over if something goes horribly wrong, but you are PIC. Also if it goes that bad you will have take the ride again.

So if you want to put that time in after your PPL feel free, just remember sometimes they look harder at some peoples log books that others.

If they feel that you have been lieing then you get to follow the regs on cheating!

I just find it strange that someone who is applying for an ATPL does not have the 250hrs PIC time that is required. Yet meets all the other requirments.

I can see that with CPL but not ATPL.

Anyways, sorry for missing that bit out.

Safe flying one and all.

-273

[englishal]

The way I see it.....

Whenever I train in or fly an N reg, I log under the FARs, ie. Dual received AND PIC. When I fly a G reg, I log under the JARs, Ie. Dual received.This is because I was once told by a dual rated FAA / JAA FI that the logging also depended upon the aircraft registration. Theoretically the P1US hours are loggable as PIC according to the FARs BUT becasue these hours were logged in a G reg (I assume) A/C with a JAA FI then they have to stay as P1US or Dual Received, but not PIC.

It is unusual not to have 250hrs PIC by the time you're ready for the FAA ATP GFT. FAA ATP writtens can be done anytime. FAA ATP flight test can only be done after 1500hrs TT.....

EA

[minus273]

Hi Al

You should (and I say "Should") be able to use any of the hours as long as both licences and aircraft are ICAO.

The problem that is now arrising seems to be what hours go in what box, PIC SIC DUAL.

This comes from some of the schools making up weird new terms such as SPIC?! Which do not fall clearly into the old boxes and when trying to explain from one system to another make it hard to see what they truly are.

Personally I have logged all my time with an instructor as Dual, all time by myself or without and instructor as PIC.

I think that this is the safest way to go and means that you will not get screwed if they do a log book check.

Anyways safe flying one and all

-273

[McGreaser]

Ok, so which is it then ? Seems everyone has their own intepretation on PIUS, PI, Dual, Solo, SPIC ? Have 115 hrs PI time, 150 hrs PIUS and 120 hours dual time and all in all 3000 hrs TT and doing commercial flying. Now, from what l gather the FAA doesn't accept PIUS anymore. Would hate to blast off to USA only to return with a "half baked" certificate. Any FAA contacts would be appreciated.

[minus273]

Hi there McGreaser

Just curious as how you get to 3000TT from the values you quoted?

You say you have:

PIC = 115
PIUS = 150
Dual = 120

Now my maths is not the best in the world, but it would seem that you are 2615hrs short of 3000hrs?!?

I assume you must have SIC time? If so you can use that towards the 250 hrs required!

I am guessing that you must have missed some zeros off of something?

Either that or I have completely lost the plot as to what you have and have not got?!

So if you could tell us how your hours break down:

PIC, SIC, DUAL

It will be easier to figure out how you get to 3000hrs and what you will need to get so that you can obtain the FAA ATPL.

-273

[McGreaser]

The remainder of the time is Co-pilot time. How does that contribute to the 250 hrs PIC time ? Are there any FAR's to that effect ?

[minus273]

Well here are the FARs that you need to be looking at.

I believe that it is Section4 that I highlighted in Red: It is a difficult one to read, but seems to be saying that if you are FO you could use your legs of the trip towards the 250PIC.

I you like I can call the FSDO here and see what they have to say?

-273

Section 61.159: Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:
(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.
(2) 100 hours of night flight time. (3) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:
(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(3)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.
(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(3) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(4) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least--
(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.


(5) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section may be obtained in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents an airplane, provided the aeronautical experience was obtained in an approved course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.
(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.
(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:
(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane--
(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;
(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or
(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.
(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time--
(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;
(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;
(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and
(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.
(d) An applicant may be issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the endorsement, ``Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO,'' as prescribed by Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant:
(1) Credits second-in-command or flight-engineer time under paragraph (c) of this section toward the 1,500 hours total flight time requirement of paragraph (a) of this section;
(2) Does not have at least 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot, including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command time and none of his or her flight-engineer time; and
(3) Otherwise meets the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section.
(e) When the applicant specified in paragraph (d) of this section presents satisfactory evidence of the accumulation of 1,200 hours of flight time as a pilot including no more than 50 percent of his or her second-in-command flight time and none of his or her flight-engineer time, the applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the endorsement prescribed in that paragraph.

[McGreaser]

Wow, silly me ! Usually hate reading the small print ! Many thanx Guess my rear is covered then...............

[Cayman Flyer]

AS far I as I am concerned the logging of FAA time and JAA time are so different that I keep a seperate logbook for each authority.

Not only are PIC, PICUS, Dual, SPIC different but so are cross-country time and Instrument / IFR time.