Success with HSBC, would you like to hear my story?
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Success with HSBC, would you like to hear my story?
Hello fellow wannabes,
This is just a quick post to express my thanks to everyone who has helped me get this far. I had a meeting with HSBC last week and my loan application has been accepted.
The wealth of information on here for us wannabes was invaluable and I would like to know if there would be an interest in hearing about my dealings with the bank so that hopefully some other guys and girls will get the green light to achieve the dream. I know it’s just the first hurdle in a long race to get my ATPL but of course without it I wouldn’t be going anywhere!
I am aware there are many posts on the forum and searching will reveal lots of info on HSBC and trying to get a loan. However I would be more than happy to post my very recent experience and answer any questions anyone might have.
I’ll leave it at that and see what interest there is before I bore you with ALL the details
I look forward to hearing from you and joining the masses at Bristol in the not too distant future!
Kind regards,
Buster
This is just a quick post to express my thanks to everyone who has helped me get this far. I had a meeting with HSBC last week and my loan application has been accepted.
The wealth of information on here for us wannabes was invaluable and I would like to know if there would be an interest in hearing about my dealings with the bank so that hopefully some other guys and girls will get the green light to achieve the dream. I know it’s just the first hurdle in a long race to get my ATPL but of course without it I wouldn’t be going anywhere!
I am aware there are many posts on the forum and searching will reveal lots of info on HSBC and trying to get a loan. However I would be more than happy to post my very recent experience and answer any questions anyone might have.
I’ll leave it at that and see what interest there is before I bore you with ALL the details
I look forward to hearing from you and joining the masses at Bristol in the not too distant future!
Kind regards,
Buster
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Farnham
Age: 42
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Buster
I've got an appointment with HSBC next Saturday - I imagine it will go something like this (carlsberg advert in mind...)
Me: Hi there!
HSBC: Hi. How are you?
Me: Fine, thanks. Any chance of 20 grand?
HSBC: Yeah, no problem. Have another 5 grand free for living expenses?
Me: Thanks. Bye.
Well, we can dream.
I've got to raise 65k to go to Jerez but am financing some of the total another way. Any advice with the best way to deal with HSBC would be fantastic.
I may also start the "I now laugh at my student loan" club.
NW3
I've got an appointment with HSBC next Saturday - I imagine it will go something like this (carlsberg advert in mind...)
Me: Hi there!
HSBC: Hi. How are you?
Me: Fine, thanks. Any chance of 20 grand?
HSBC: Yeah, no problem. Have another 5 grand free for living expenses?
Me: Thanks. Bye.
Well, we can dream.
I've got to raise 65k to go to Jerez but am financing some of the total another way. Any advice with the best way to deal with HSBC would be fantastic.
I may also start the "I now laugh at my student loan" club.
NW3
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
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Well done on getting the loan Buster, now the fun really begins. I'm sure a lot of people would find an account of your dealings with the bank pretty useful.
NW3 would i be right in thinking you are going to Jerez as a self sponsored Brittania cadet? If so congrats on getting through their selection.
I've borrowed 60k from HSBC
I'd be very interested in joining your 'I now laugh at my student loan' club by the way.
NW3 would i be right in thinking you are going to Jerez as a self sponsored Brittania cadet? If so congrats on getting through their selection.
I've borrowed 60k from HSBC
I'd be very interested in joining your 'I now laugh at my student loan' club by the way.
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Thanks everyone for your replies and words of encouragement!
I will try and put my experience down as clearly as possible. I am not a natural writer (just check the spelling and grammar!) but will do my best.
The aim of this post is to let you know how I managed to get HSBC to say yes. I am going to try and do that in the clearest way however there are lots of things I think added and detracted from my application that I want you to be aware of. Learn form my mistakes and save yourself time, and possibly money.
I applied for a 'Post Graduate & Professional Studies Loan' from HSBC to cover the entire cost of a modular route of training. This worked out at a sniff under £45,000. I had a guarantor in the shape of my father who I now owe a huge debt of gratitude, without him I couldn’t have done it.
My situation
I graduated from university with a good degree last year and have been working for a large oil company as a document controller (nothing to do with my degree!) I have a PPL+ Night gained at flight school in Florida in 2001. I fly for a Volunteer gliding School on a TMG and have around 100TT. I have a class 1 medical and have attended the GAPAN pilot aptitude tests scoring well.
The first thing I did was to research PPRune and gain as much information as possible into becoming a commercial pilot. What did I need to do to get a (F)ATPL and with it the opportunity to become a FO. That is my goal. Months, years even sitting on the sidelines going through university with out my heart in it always looking out the window as I watched aircraft go over I knew I would never be happy unless I gave it a go, a really good go, an all or nothing. Having spoken to pilots whilst at university, doing my PPL and subsequently flying at my local club I decided I just couldn’t justify an Integrated course and having just come out of university I knew I could study, I could really study something that fascinates me.
I decided to go Modular and face the rather daunting prospect of the 14 ground exams from home, distance learning with BGS, the choice of flying schools could wait. Having made this decision I followed the advice on PPRune, made the effort to look my best and popped into my local branch of HSBC.
I explained I would just like an informal chat about my plans and what if anything they may be able to do for me. All this as confidently as possible although inside I was terrified! I met with a lady who had a limited experience of the type of loan I was looking for but was helpful and took notes on my grand plan as it was at that point. She took that to the branch manager and we arranged for me to firm up my plan a little more regarding training providers, the state of the market and what the chances were of me getting a job. This bit you already know!
I e-mailed lots of companies and got as much information I could about the training, the aircraft and the views from people on PPRune. I spoke with pilots at my club and instructors who had themselves not finished training all that long ago. I looked into how others had completed modular training and thought about how I could structure a plan that best suited me. I am only 25 but couldn’t help feeling/help feeling that time is marching on. I decided then to work through the modular route as a structured course and hopefully take a similar amount of time as an integrated student would. Having read a post by BlueSkyRich I asked for his help. He was very good and gave me access to a wealth of information he had researched on the airlines, recruitment and forecasting growth, all great stuff that the bank would love to see.
I put all of this into a similar plan for myself that included an introduction about
Myself, my history and why I was a good bet (you have to inspire confidence)
Details of target airlines, their plans and salaries for FO positions
The reason for choosing Modular, what modular was, its + and – points
Training schedule including, times, costs, etc
What I would do if I failed, how would I recover
What I would do when I am successful!
Having done this and drawing on my experience at university I made this look as professional as possible. Crisp paper, clear, to the point, acknowledging best and worse case scenarios with an overall enthusiastic and positive tone! It was in a smart folder and taken to a meeting with the branch manager by a smart, enthusiastic and very anxious me.
Meeting the man who would ultimately decide my fate was very daunting. Having very limited experience in dealing with banks, let alone asking for such huge sums of money I let the document I had prepared to the talking. He was very impressed with the information, the level of research and how it was presented! It made it accessible for him and made his life a little easier. This would be come apparent later and I do feel that the way you present yourself and your research is very important.
I had produced everything in duplicate so that as we talked through the plan I could annotate points and had created spaces in the document for him to make his own notes. I highlighted particular points for discussion and made spaces available for both of us to ask and answer questions which proved valuable when I was to go over information later.
We spoke in detail about my plan and he asked what the chances of me finding work were. He asked if there was a guaranteed job at the end of it and I had to say that no, there wasn’t. However based on my (BlueSkyRich) research there was growth and that I knew a number of pilots who had been successful. I also made the case that if the worst were to happen and I failed or didn’t get a job I could afford to make the substantial repayments on the loan by coming back into work in the oil industry.
He was happy enough with the plan but not with my ability to live and repay the loan. He asked if I could provide a guarantee. I don’t have the time, space, or wish to bore you with ALL the in and outs of this conversation, however my relationship with my father is…interesting. However with out him it didn’t look like I would get all the money I needed. The bank was happy to offer me £25,000 on my own but any more would require my father’s assistance.
The outcome of this meeting then was that the manager wanted to see a more detailed, comprehensive listing of the funds required, living costs whilst at home, abroad and a firmed up time scale for the training. Actions then were to fully develop a plan, make it as simple as possible and confirm my costs as best I could. A trip to the Flyer Exhibition at Heathrow was in order and I also had to convince my father I was a good bet, if I couldn’t get my father to back me, to have the confidence in me then how could I convince the bank?
I invested in a trip to the Flyer Flight Training Exhibition at Heathrow, spoke to all the stands and attended as many talks as possible picking up brochures and talking to students. This proved to be invaluable and made the choice of training provider that much easier. As has been said before here on PPrune, if you can go to the school you wish to train with and have a look around, meet the people and talk to the students it will give you a much better idea of how you may get on. Although the flight training is still a long way off the ground school is not and having met Alex in person and seen the notes I knew I wanted to go with Bristol. This decision alone was a weight of my mind and gave the first 12 months of my plan a concrete start.
Having come home and looked over the information together with the talks I had with various schools I put together a 1 page excel spreadsheet detailing times, costs and totals for the entire training schedule. It is my life for the next 30 months on one sheet of A4 thanks largely to the planning department of the company I work for, if they can plan the costing behind putting an offshore installation at the bottom of the sea, I knew they could help me organize my ATPL!
What I learnt from this was that initially there is so much to consider, so many variables that I had tried to put into a plan to show the bank I had thought of everything. Well, it’s impossible to think of everything. I would argue that this has helped my application in some ways, they have said that they have been very impressed with the thoroughness of the research, the organization and the way it has been presented. However I think it’s important to be able to show the essential information as clearly as possible. Like the CV any more than one page and you can miss the point.
Nearly there!
Apologies for those at the back starting to nod off, I am doing my best
Having condensed the plan then into a 3 page document I had everything I needed to show the bank what I wanted to achieve in the next 30 months, how I was going to do it, the how much it was going to cost.
I had a front page with brief bullet pointed description of the training.
Page two was the Excel spreadsheet with EVERYTHING on it but in such a way you could see where I would be at every point, how much I would have spent and how far I had to go.
Page three was a breakdown of the monthly costs so that we could more easily input it into the computer. HSBC computer system allows for a number of draw downs together with one off payments. Therefore rent is say £350 per month, every month for the first 12 months, when I am away in America I need a lump sum of X as this includes flying, rent etc.
This makes the banks life easier and whilst they are making extraordinary amount of money from you in interest we just want them to say YES!!!!
I went in last week to show them the final costing, time and training schedule I had drawn up. As the manager wasn’t there I was dealt with by another member of the bank who was unfamiliar with this particular loan together with another girl I had seen before and who was familiar with my application. I was there for 2 hours and felt like I got a bit of a grilling. She asked all about the ground school, the flying, being a FO and about the guarantor details my father had provided. She wasn’t happy with them and it tuned out there had been some misunderstandings between myself, the manager her and my father.
After she called him, twice, she was happy but had tried to get him to guarantee everything! There was also confusion over the holiday period on the repayments as I was sure it was 6 months form the final stage of training and she believed it was 6 months from the start! Having everything clearly written down, having provided them with a folder and duplicate copies of all information proved a real benefit here when you are being asked awkward questions.
Having everything to hand I produced all the relevant documentation and she was happy that I was in fact correct. I can’t help thinking it was a test to see how well I knew my stuff! I was told that she had heard how thorough I was, that I would probably turn up today with some well presented information ( I did) that she was hadn’t seen such a well thought out and presented application and that I really knew what I was talking about! LOL, oh I was quite embarrassed, but obviously over the moon, the words I am happy to accept your loan application were ringing in my ears!
So, there it is. My, ahem rather long winded story. If there is anything I haven’t covered that you would like more informaiton on or isn’t clear, please write and ask me. I’ll do my best to answer your questions if I haven’t already.
If I could summarise my experience and give some pointers that may help, To help you plan
• Create an Aim, what is it you want to achieve? How are YOU going to achieve it?
• Do your research, I don’t think you can do enough
• Document what you find, catalogue it
• Ask questions from those who have done it, learn from others mistakes
• Create a plan, a business plan that allows the bank to see you have really considered all the options, good and bad. Show you have what it takes to finish the training, get the job and pay the loan. All they are really interested in is if they will get there money back on time.
• Make it easy for them, break it down, be thorough but clear, I wasn’t at the start and I wasted months
• Be confident by really knowing your stuff. There is nothing else in my life I am more passionate about than becoming a good and professional pilot. I have been told it shows. It came across in my application and made the bank think I was a reasonable bet. Yes my father is guaranteeing half of it, but everything I was told in my final meeting makes be believe these things count.
• Apply for a professional loan by being as professional as possible. I was told (by the bank) about a chap that had just walked in off the street and asked for £50k to go integrated. He hadn’t done any research, no plan, just expected the money, it didn’t happen and made my application look all the better by comparison!
I would just like to say a big thank you to BlueSkyRich again for helping me get my plan moving. If I can return this good deed and help anyone else then please don’t hesitate to ask.
Good luck in your applications, your future training and I hope this may have been of some use.
Kind regards,
Buster
Oh, can I please join the laugh at my student loan club too?
I will try and put my experience down as clearly as possible. I am not a natural writer (just check the spelling and grammar!) but will do my best.
The aim of this post is to let you know how I managed to get HSBC to say yes. I am going to try and do that in the clearest way however there are lots of things I think added and detracted from my application that I want you to be aware of. Learn form my mistakes and save yourself time, and possibly money.
I applied for a 'Post Graduate & Professional Studies Loan' from HSBC to cover the entire cost of a modular route of training. This worked out at a sniff under £45,000. I had a guarantor in the shape of my father who I now owe a huge debt of gratitude, without him I couldn’t have done it.
My situation
I graduated from university with a good degree last year and have been working for a large oil company as a document controller (nothing to do with my degree!) I have a PPL+ Night gained at flight school in Florida in 2001. I fly for a Volunteer gliding School on a TMG and have around 100TT. I have a class 1 medical and have attended the GAPAN pilot aptitude tests scoring well.
The first thing I did was to research PPRune and gain as much information as possible into becoming a commercial pilot. What did I need to do to get a (F)ATPL and with it the opportunity to become a FO. That is my goal. Months, years even sitting on the sidelines going through university with out my heart in it always looking out the window as I watched aircraft go over I knew I would never be happy unless I gave it a go, a really good go, an all or nothing. Having spoken to pilots whilst at university, doing my PPL and subsequently flying at my local club I decided I just couldn’t justify an Integrated course and having just come out of university I knew I could study, I could really study something that fascinates me.
I decided to go Modular and face the rather daunting prospect of the 14 ground exams from home, distance learning with BGS, the choice of flying schools could wait. Having made this decision I followed the advice on PPRune, made the effort to look my best and popped into my local branch of HSBC.
I explained I would just like an informal chat about my plans and what if anything they may be able to do for me. All this as confidently as possible although inside I was terrified! I met with a lady who had a limited experience of the type of loan I was looking for but was helpful and took notes on my grand plan as it was at that point. She took that to the branch manager and we arranged for me to firm up my plan a little more regarding training providers, the state of the market and what the chances were of me getting a job. This bit you already know!
I e-mailed lots of companies and got as much information I could about the training, the aircraft and the views from people on PPRune. I spoke with pilots at my club and instructors who had themselves not finished training all that long ago. I looked into how others had completed modular training and thought about how I could structure a plan that best suited me. I am only 25 but couldn’t help feeling/help feeling that time is marching on. I decided then to work through the modular route as a structured course and hopefully take a similar amount of time as an integrated student would. Having read a post by BlueSkyRich I asked for his help. He was very good and gave me access to a wealth of information he had researched on the airlines, recruitment and forecasting growth, all great stuff that the bank would love to see.
I put all of this into a similar plan for myself that included an introduction about
Myself, my history and why I was a good bet (you have to inspire confidence)
Details of target airlines, their plans and salaries for FO positions
The reason for choosing Modular, what modular was, its + and – points
Training schedule including, times, costs, etc
What I would do if I failed, how would I recover
What I would do when I am successful!
Having done this and drawing on my experience at university I made this look as professional as possible. Crisp paper, clear, to the point, acknowledging best and worse case scenarios with an overall enthusiastic and positive tone! It was in a smart folder and taken to a meeting with the branch manager by a smart, enthusiastic and very anxious me.
Meeting the man who would ultimately decide my fate was very daunting. Having very limited experience in dealing with banks, let alone asking for such huge sums of money I let the document I had prepared to the talking. He was very impressed with the information, the level of research and how it was presented! It made it accessible for him and made his life a little easier. This would be come apparent later and I do feel that the way you present yourself and your research is very important.
I had produced everything in duplicate so that as we talked through the plan I could annotate points and had created spaces in the document for him to make his own notes. I highlighted particular points for discussion and made spaces available for both of us to ask and answer questions which proved valuable when I was to go over information later.
We spoke in detail about my plan and he asked what the chances of me finding work were. He asked if there was a guaranteed job at the end of it and I had to say that no, there wasn’t. However based on my (BlueSkyRich) research there was growth and that I knew a number of pilots who had been successful. I also made the case that if the worst were to happen and I failed or didn’t get a job I could afford to make the substantial repayments on the loan by coming back into work in the oil industry.
He was happy enough with the plan but not with my ability to live and repay the loan. He asked if I could provide a guarantee. I don’t have the time, space, or wish to bore you with ALL the in and outs of this conversation, however my relationship with my father is…interesting. However with out him it didn’t look like I would get all the money I needed. The bank was happy to offer me £25,000 on my own but any more would require my father’s assistance.
The outcome of this meeting then was that the manager wanted to see a more detailed, comprehensive listing of the funds required, living costs whilst at home, abroad and a firmed up time scale for the training. Actions then were to fully develop a plan, make it as simple as possible and confirm my costs as best I could. A trip to the Flyer Exhibition at Heathrow was in order and I also had to convince my father I was a good bet, if I couldn’t get my father to back me, to have the confidence in me then how could I convince the bank?
I invested in a trip to the Flyer Flight Training Exhibition at Heathrow, spoke to all the stands and attended as many talks as possible picking up brochures and talking to students. This proved to be invaluable and made the choice of training provider that much easier. As has been said before here on PPrune, if you can go to the school you wish to train with and have a look around, meet the people and talk to the students it will give you a much better idea of how you may get on. Although the flight training is still a long way off the ground school is not and having met Alex in person and seen the notes I knew I wanted to go with Bristol. This decision alone was a weight of my mind and gave the first 12 months of my plan a concrete start.
Having come home and looked over the information together with the talks I had with various schools I put together a 1 page excel spreadsheet detailing times, costs and totals for the entire training schedule. It is my life for the next 30 months on one sheet of A4 thanks largely to the planning department of the company I work for, if they can plan the costing behind putting an offshore installation at the bottom of the sea, I knew they could help me organize my ATPL!
What I learnt from this was that initially there is so much to consider, so many variables that I had tried to put into a plan to show the bank I had thought of everything. Well, it’s impossible to think of everything. I would argue that this has helped my application in some ways, they have said that they have been very impressed with the thoroughness of the research, the organization and the way it has been presented. However I think it’s important to be able to show the essential information as clearly as possible. Like the CV any more than one page and you can miss the point.
Nearly there!
Apologies for those at the back starting to nod off, I am doing my best
Having condensed the plan then into a 3 page document I had everything I needed to show the bank what I wanted to achieve in the next 30 months, how I was going to do it, the how much it was going to cost.
I had a front page with brief bullet pointed description of the training.
Page two was the Excel spreadsheet with EVERYTHING on it but in such a way you could see where I would be at every point, how much I would have spent and how far I had to go.
Page three was a breakdown of the monthly costs so that we could more easily input it into the computer. HSBC computer system allows for a number of draw downs together with one off payments. Therefore rent is say £350 per month, every month for the first 12 months, when I am away in America I need a lump sum of X as this includes flying, rent etc.
This makes the banks life easier and whilst they are making extraordinary amount of money from you in interest we just want them to say YES!!!!
I went in last week to show them the final costing, time and training schedule I had drawn up. As the manager wasn’t there I was dealt with by another member of the bank who was unfamiliar with this particular loan together with another girl I had seen before and who was familiar with my application. I was there for 2 hours and felt like I got a bit of a grilling. She asked all about the ground school, the flying, being a FO and about the guarantor details my father had provided. She wasn’t happy with them and it tuned out there had been some misunderstandings between myself, the manager her and my father.
After she called him, twice, she was happy but had tried to get him to guarantee everything! There was also confusion over the holiday period on the repayments as I was sure it was 6 months form the final stage of training and she believed it was 6 months from the start! Having everything clearly written down, having provided them with a folder and duplicate copies of all information proved a real benefit here when you are being asked awkward questions.
Having everything to hand I produced all the relevant documentation and she was happy that I was in fact correct. I can’t help thinking it was a test to see how well I knew my stuff! I was told that she had heard how thorough I was, that I would probably turn up today with some well presented information ( I did) that she was hadn’t seen such a well thought out and presented application and that I really knew what I was talking about! LOL, oh I was quite embarrassed, but obviously over the moon, the words I am happy to accept your loan application were ringing in my ears!
So, there it is. My, ahem rather long winded story. If there is anything I haven’t covered that you would like more informaiton on or isn’t clear, please write and ask me. I’ll do my best to answer your questions if I haven’t already.
If I could summarise my experience and give some pointers that may help, To help you plan
• Create an Aim, what is it you want to achieve? How are YOU going to achieve it?
• Do your research, I don’t think you can do enough
• Document what you find, catalogue it
• Ask questions from those who have done it, learn from others mistakes
• Create a plan, a business plan that allows the bank to see you have really considered all the options, good and bad. Show you have what it takes to finish the training, get the job and pay the loan. All they are really interested in is if they will get there money back on time.
• Make it easy for them, break it down, be thorough but clear, I wasn’t at the start and I wasted months
• Be confident by really knowing your stuff. There is nothing else in my life I am more passionate about than becoming a good and professional pilot. I have been told it shows. It came across in my application and made the bank think I was a reasonable bet. Yes my father is guaranteeing half of it, but everything I was told in my final meeting makes be believe these things count.
• Apply for a professional loan by being as professional as possible. I was told (by the bank) about a chap that had just walked in off the street and asked for £50k to go integrated. He hadn’t done any research, no plan, just expected the money, it didn’t happen and made my application look all the better by comparison!
I would just like to say a big thank you to BlueSkyRich again for helping me get my plan moving. If I can return this good deed and help anyone else then please don’t hesitate to ask.
Good luck in your applications, your future training and I hope this may have been of some use.
Kind regards,
Buster
Oh, can I please join the laugh at my student loan club too?
Join Date: Mar 2004
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The student loan club is taking off (excuse the pun) - I may get some badges made.
Fantastic post buster - really helpful. It's nice to find people who help the rest of us out by sharing the knowledge!
I found Pprune to be an excellent resource when doing all my research, but you need to make sure you watch out for those posting dates, as some info can be quite old. Also, there are so many different ways to get to that right hand seat, it's good to make sure you can keep track of which threads are talking about modular, which are talking about integrated, which are sponsored, which are not etc. etc.
Is there any chance of a little more info (2 sentences!) on the guarantor. I'm probably going to need about £20k from the bank (so it sounds like I may not need a guarantor) but if you do, is it just a letter signed by them, loads of forms, an interview, etc. etc.?
For anyone going to Jerez, I'm one of the non-sponsored Britannia cadets starting on 26th July. We're pretty far down the process now (signing contracts etc.) and are going down for a visit on the 8th July, so if anyone wants more info on the early stages of applying, please do shout.
NW3
Fantastic post buster - really helpful. It's nice to find people who help the rest of us out by sharing the knowledge!
I found Pprune to be an excellent resource when doing all my research, but you need to make sure you watch out for those posting dates, as some info can be quite old. Also, there are so many different ways to get to that right hand seat, it's good to make sure you can keep track of which threads are talking about modular, which are talking about integrated, which are sponsored, which are not etc. etc.
Is there any chance of a little more info (2 sentences!) on the guarantor. I'm probably going to need about £20k from the bank (so it sounds like I may not need a guarantor) but if you do, is it just a letter signed by them, loads of forms, an interview, etc. etc.?
For anyone going to Jerez, I'm one of the non-sponsored Britannia cadets starting on 26th July. We're pretty far down the process now (signing contracts etc.) and are going down for a visit on the 8th July, so if anyone wants more info on the early stages of applying, please do shout.
NW3
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Banks are in the business of selling money. They sell it to you for a given period of time and want it back with profit attached. As with all business there is an element of risk attached and the profit that is returned potentially is usually in proportion to the risk assumed.
Lending to students obviously has an element of risk attached to it. However this risk is tempered by a number of factors. One of these is the ability to attract new customers and their future profitable business. Another is to limit the exposure to both the levels recommended by the Bank of England and the borrowers likely ability to repay the loan from any future average earning ability. Most students ( if they are young) are unlikely to have capital security to underwrite their borrowing, however it is a reasonable bet that some of their parents will. Banks are nearly always happy to lend against secured assets because it minimizes their risk exposure.
Generally speaking it is unusual to obtain unsecured lending for sums above £25,000 in the UK for personal borrowers. Even then the lender will normally need to satisfy themselves that the borrower already has the ability to repay the loan. For sums in excess of this amount the lender will normally want securities. If the borrower cannot provide these, then a Guarantor may be required. The guarantor is effectively a co-borrower and has joint and several responsibility for the loan if the primary borrower defaults on the loan.
The reality is that if the borrower or the guarantor has sufficient security and credit worthiness then most lenders would be satisfied to lend sums that meet their lending criteria. That is what they are in the business of doing. There is no big secret or magic to any of this.
Many people have to make large borrowings throughout the course of their lives for different reasons. Obviously home purchase is the most usual example. Here the lender secures the loan to the value of the home. The borrower is normally expected to fund a percentage of the purchase price, or otherwise buy an insurance policy that protects the lender. Even then the lender may require a guarantor if it feels the borrower is potentially over exposing themselves or has a weak credit history. Borrowing money for flight training is really no different except that the lender has nothing to reposses and so another source of tangible security is required.
HSBC markets itself and some of its loan products at students and specifically includes flight training within that marketing. This presumably brings them a good slice of that business. However the basic rules of lending and borrowing still apply.
I feel there needs to be a cautionary note sounded on this subject. When applying for such large sums you must run a healthy reality check. Can you sensibly repay the money even if things don't go as planned ? The bank will still insist on repayment. Can your parents or guarantors sensibly carry the burden of this debt if you default on the loan through no fault of your own ? Can the debt be minimized by saving up more capital towards the deposit ? Can a cheaper interest rate be sourced from another lender whose marketing may be less directly focused ? Can the risk be minimized by borrowing in stages and doing the course / courses in stages?
Commercial flying as a career has always had a high attrition rate. The medical requirements, the currency requirements, the undefinable cost elements, the family commitments and changes, fate, luck. All of thes can and often do conspire to cause minor and major setbacks. At the end of the day this money may buy you a qualification which will impress vitually no one in the industry, because it is basic, common and lacking experience. Many will find themselves saddled with a large debt and a pocketful of dreams. This is often the first enforced reality check. I am not suggesting that anyone should be put off a flying career, but I do think this needs to be approached without rose tinted spectacles. You only have to read these forums to become rapidly aware that the reality is often very different to the perception.
I am concerned that some people feel that getting a loan is like winning a competition. If you try often enough and come up with a good tie break question you win. The truth is that Banks will always lend to the people who probably least need to borrow. They will nearly always lend to those that can repay from their own earnings up to the recommended levels. They will nearly always lend to those that provide security be they the principal borrower or the guarantor.
My daughter was seeking high multiple borrowings for a home in the south of England, she was turned down by various lenders and eventually accepted by one. This lender then got cold feet and also backed out only to cause her dissapointment at a late stage of the transaction. In steps dad one phone call to the bank and no problem the money is hers. She feels she has been successful but guess who the risk actually lies with ?
Anyway good luck to those that embark on this path, but temper your enthusiasm with a serious dose of reality. These are large sums of money, and you may end up having to pay them with from earnings generated from jobs other than commercial flying.
Lending to students obviously has an element of risk attached to it. However this risk is tempered by a number of factors. One of these is the ability to attract new customers and their future profitable business. Another is to limit the exposure to both the levels recommended by the Bank of England and the borrowers likely ability to repay the loan from any future average earning ability. Most students ( if they are young) are unlikely to have capital security to underwrite their borrowing, however it is a reasonable bet that some of their parents will. Banks are nearly always happy to lend against secured assets because it minimizes their risk exposure.
Generally speaking it is unusual to obtain unsecured lending for sums above £25,000 in the UK for personal borrowers. Even then the lender will normally need to satisfy themselves that the borrower already has the ability to repay the loan. For sums in excess of this amount the lender will normally want securities. If the borrower cannot provide these, then a Guarantor may be required. The guarantor is effectively a co-borrower and has joint and several responsibility for the loan if the primary borrower defaults on the loan.
The reality is that if the borrower or the guarantor has sufficient security and credit worthiness then most lenders would be satisfied to lend sums that meet their lending criteria. That is what they are in the business of doing. There is no big secret or magic to any of this.
Many people have to make large borrowings throughout the course of their lives for different reasons. Obviously home purchase is the most usual example. Here the lender secures the loan to the value of the home. The borrower is normally expected to fund a percentage of the purchase price, or otherwise buy an insurance policy that protects the lender. Even then the lender may require a guarantor if it feels the borrower is potentially over exposing themselves or has a weak credit history. Borrowing money for flight training is really no different except that the lender has nothing to reposses and so another source of tangible security is required.
HSBC markets itself and some of its loan products at students and specifically includes flight training within that marketing. This presumably brings them a good slice of that business. However the basic rules of lending and borrowing still apply.
I feel there needs to be a cautionary note sounded on this subject. When applying for such large sums you must run a healthy reality check. Can you sensibly repay the money even if things don't go as planned ? The bank will still insist on repayment. Can your parents or guarantors sensibly carry the burden of this debt if you default on the loan through no fault of your own ? Can the debt be minimized by saving up more capital towards the deposit ? Can a cheaper interest rate be sourced from another lender whose marketing may be less directly focused ? Can the risk be minimized by borrowing in stages and doing the course / courses in stages?
Commercial flying as a career has always had a high attrition rate. The medical requirements, the currency requirements, the undefinable cost elements, the family commitments and changes, fate, luck. All of thes can and often do conspire to cause minor and major setbacks. At the end of the day this money may buy you a qualification which will impress vitually no one in the industry, because it is basic, common and lacking experience. Many will find themselves saddled with a large debt and a pocketful of dreams. This is often the first enforced reality check. I am not suggesting that anyone should be put off a flying career, but I do think this needs to be approached without rose tinted spectacles. You only have to read these forums to become rapidly aware that the reality is often very different to the perception.
I am concerned that some people feel that getting a loan is like winning a competition. If you try often enough and come up with a good tie break question you win. The truth is that Banks will always lend to the people who probably least need to borrow. They will nearly always lend to those that can repay from their own earnings up to the recommended levels. They will nearly always lend to those that provide security be they the principal borrower or the guarantor.
My daughter was seeking high multiple borrowings for a home in the south of England, she was turned down by various lenders and eventually accepted by one. This lender then got cold feet and also backed out only to cause her dissapointment at a late stage of the transaction. In steps dad one phone call to the bank and no problem the money is hers. She feels she has been successful but guess who the risk actually lies with ?
Anyway good luck to those that embark on this path, but temper your enthusiasm with a serious dose of reality. These are large sums of money, and you may end up having to pay them with from earnings generated from jobs other than commercial flying.
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NW3 & Bealzebub,
Thanks for your replies.
NW3, 2 sentences? It’s just not going to happen!
The guarantor must demonstrate they have the Assets and financial backing to support the amount they are going to guarantee. They must show their Assets, liabilities etc. Just a piece of paper with the info was all that I was asked for. He gave them
His salary salary,
His car and its value,
His liabilities
I do not know what he discussed when they called him.
If the bank is happy that they have access to the required funds the loan and guarantor agreement are sent to a solicitor of the guarantor’s choice. Once the guarantor is happy with the agreement, its all signed and sealed by the solicitor and returned to bank.
I haven’t had much dealing with this as it was my father’s scope but that’s pretty much it.
Regarding your departure to Jerez can I wish you all the very best. I have a good friend who I met when we did our PPL together in Florida. He sold his house, his car and took a big loan to follow his dreams. After training at Jerez he got a job for Cityjet and I met him last week on a night stop from Paris. To think we started off together on this long road, seeing my friend walk through the arrivals gate in his uniform, well it made me proud!
What better inspiration could you ask for?
Bealzebub’s
It must be evident that I am an optimist, but I would like to think I have my head screwed on. I agree with everything you said and perhaps the bank don’t care about the fact that you pass the training or not. It is a huge decision to take out such a loan and what I tried to do was show that I had thought about things without the rose tinted glasses. Emotion does come into it though, if you look at the numbers your right, I’m going to be very poor for a long time paying this loan off. However there is richness in succeeding where others have said you won’t, in having the drive to make it happen and from doing something difficult, well. My boss who is a very experienced pilot in whom I have a great deal of respect put it to me like this.
Its £40,000. You have potentially, a 40 year career ahead of you. That’s £1000 per year for you to pursue your dream, to make it a reality. To every day get up and go to work and fly. We both love to fly, and when you look back in years to come you will realize that it was a lot of money, but a small price to pay for living the life you want.
A great quote that sums it up better than I ever could…
“Consult not your fears, but your hopes and dreams. Think not about your frustrations, but about your unfulfilled potential. Concern yourself not with what you tried and failed, but with what it is still possible for you to do.”
Thanks again for taking the time to read my post and I hope together with Bealzebub’s post and the many others on this forum you can make a balanced and informed decision on what s best for you.
All the best and good luck.
Kind regards,
Buster
Thanks for your replies.
NW3, 2 sentences? It’s just not going to happen!
The guarantor must demonstrate they have the Assets and financial backing to support the amount they are going to guarantee. They must show their Assets, liabilities etc. Just a piece of paper with the info was all that I was asked for. He gave them
His salary salary,
His car and its value,
His liabilities
I do not know what he discussed when they called him.
If the bank is happy that they have access to the required funds the loan and guarantor agreement are sent to a solicitor of the guarantor’s choice. Once the guarantor is happy with the agreement, its all signed and sealed by the solicitor and returned to bank.
I haven’t had much dealing with this as it was my father’s scope but that’s pretty much it.
Regarding your departure to Jerez can I wish you all the very best. I have a good friend who I met when we did our PPL together in Florida. He sold his house, his car and took a big loan to follow his dreams. After training at Jerez he got a job for Cityjet and I met him last week on a night stop from Paris. To think we started off together on this long road, seeing my friend walk through the arrivals gate in his uniform, well it made me proud!
What better inspiration could you ask for?
Bealzebub’s
It must be evident that I am an optimist, but I would like to think I have my head screwed on. I agree with everything you said and perhaps the bank don’t care about the fact that you pass the training or not. It is a huge decision to take out such a loan and what I tried to do was show that I had thought about things without the rose tinted glasses. Emotion does come into it though, if you look at the numbers your right, I’m going to be very poor for a long time paying this loan off. However there is richness in succeeding where others have said you won’t, in having the drive to make it happen and from doing something difficult, well. My boss who is a very experienced pilot in whom I have a great deal of respect put it to me like this.
Its £40,000. You have potentially, a 40 year career ahead of you. That’s £1000 per year for you to pursue your dream, to make it a reality. To every day get up and go to work and fly. We both love to fly, and when you look back in years to come you will realize that it was a lot of money, but a small price to pay for living the life you want.
A great quote that sums it up better than I ever could…
“Consult not your fears, but your hopes and dreams. Think not about your frustrations, but about your unfulfilled potential. Concern yourself not with what you tried and failed, but with what it is still possible for you to do.”
Thanks again for taking the time to read my post and I hope together with Bealzebub’s post and the many others on this forum you can make a balanced and informed decision on what s best for you.
All the best and good luck.
Kind regards,
Buster
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Yes indeed, and there is nothing wrong with being an optimist.
It is an exciting venture and I wish you the best of luck.
I was sounding a cautionary note about borrowing large sums of money from commercial lenders. Two points you made that I am not sure I would entirely agree with :
-----------------------------------------------
"Emotion does come into it though"
-----------------------------------------------
Not for the bank it won't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Its £40,000. You have potentially, a 40 year career ahead of you. That’s £1000 per year for you to pursue your dream, to make it a reality."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You forgot the bit about the banks profit. Don't forget interest will add a lot more to the amount you have to pay back. In reality it might also end up costing a lot more than just the budget projection.
The poetic quotes are warm and fuzzy but the reality of borrowing large sums of cash are a lot simpler and much colder.
Ending on a positive note however. Many people over the years have sucessfully embarked on a career in civil aviation and if you accept the risks there is no reason why you shouldn't be one of them.
Good luck.
It is an exciting venture and I wish you the best of luck.
I was sounding a cautionary note about borrowing large sums of money from commercial lenders. Two points you made that I am not sure I would entirely agree with :
-----------------------------------------------
"Emotion does come into it though"
-----------------------------------------------
Not for the bank it won't.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Its £40,000. You have potentially, a 40 year career ahead of you. That’s £1000 per year for you to pursue your dream, to make it a reality."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You forgot the bit about the banks profit. Don't forget interest will add a lot more to the amount you have to pay back. In reality it might also end up costing a lot more than just the budget projection.
The poetic quotes are warm and fuzzy but the reality of borrowing large sums of cash are a lot simpler and much colder.
Ending on a positive note however. Many people over the years have sucessfully embarked on a career in civil aviation and if you accept the risks there is no reason why you shouldn't be one of them.
Good luck.
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BUSTER172,
Sounds like you have really done a lot of homework on the subject, and obviuosly have been rewarded by gaining your loan. Seems to me that for anyone wishing to persue this career, your recent experiences and your post may open some people's eyes and give them another route to their goal. I believe if it hadn't been for your determination, there would be no loan. You are right to be an optomist, as it inspires confidence, without it you would have created a negative in your interviews etc..
Bealzebub's comments, though usefull, seem to give a slightly negative tone, but I think it slightly overshadows a lot of what you have said, and anyone wishing to follow your path, should, if they have ingested well, have just as much sucess, and go for it!
I wish you every sucess in your chosen career, and if you take it as seriously as you already have done, you should have no problem!
Sounds like you have really done a lot of homework on the subject, and obviuosly have been rewarded by gaining your loan. Seems to me that for anyone wishing to persue this career, your recent experiences and your post may open some people's eyes and give them another route to their goal. I believe if it hadn't been for your determination, there would be no loan. You are right to be an optomist, as it inspires confidence, without it you would have created a negative in your interviews etc..
Bealzebub's comments, though usefull, seem to give a slightly negative tone, but I think it slightly overshadows a lot of what you have said, and anyone wishing to follow your path, should, if they have ingested well, have just as much sucess, and go for it!
I wish you every sucess in your chosen career, and if you take it as seriously as you already have done, you should have no problem!
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Want to calculate those nasty loan repayments.....
this is an interest calculator for you
http://www.download.com/3000-2057-8555026.html
if you put the £40K figure into it with an int rate of 6.5% 132 repayments (11 years, I think the longest HSBC allow for such a loan) it comes out at £424.95 a month.
Flystudent
this is an interest calculator for you
http://www.download.com/3000-2057-8555026.html
if you put the £40K figure into it with an int rate of 6.5% 132 repayments (11 years, I think the longest HSBC allow for such a loan) it comes out at £424.95 a month.
Flystudent
