ICAO Co-Pilots need only 80 hrs airborne from 2006
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ICAO Co-Pilots need only 80 hrs airborne from 2006
An article in Flight International heralds a massive change
in the way that co-pilots are trained (Page 5)
Essentially only 80hrs in a light single are required - the rest is done on an airline sim
The single crew IR will be binned for copilots- they will only have to do the multi-crew on the airline sim
Light Twins are apparantly too expensive for the airlines now
The days of the need for a initial single Crew MEIR are coming to an end for co-pilots from 2006 under ICAO.
...watch the JAA follow...?
in the way that co-pilots are trained (Page 5)
Essentially only 80hrs in a light single are required - the rest is done on an airline sim
The single crew IR will be binned for copilots- they will only have to do the multi-crew on the airline sim
Light Twins are apparantly too expensive for the airlines now
The days of the need for a initial single Crew MEIR are coming to an end for co-pilots from 2006 under ICAO.
...watch the JAA follow...?
Last edited by RVR800; 28th Apr 2004 at 10:04.
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If true, probably not a bad idea.
Sims are so much better these days than just a few short years ago and teaching these guys in a multi-crew environment from the beginning is always a good idea, IMO.
OTOH, there will be those that will say...'well, they need experience'.
These young co-pilots will get it alright, provided companies will approach the subject in the correct way.
As these guys will not be in charge of anything for a long time, incidents should not be a problem.
Wonder if the high caliber of training Captains can be found?
Was in training for quite sometime, and it can be very demanding...for sure.
In addition, if the young guy does not have the right attitude from the beginning, it will be readily apparent, and the training funds can be applied to those that do.
Sims are so much better these days than just a few short years ago and teaching these guys in a multi-crew environment from the beginning is always a good idea, IMO.
OTOH, there will be those that will say...'well, they need experience'.
These young co-pilots will get it alright, provided companies will approach the subject in the correct way.
As these guys will not be in charge of anything for a long time, incidents should not be a problem.
Wonder if the high caliber of training Captains can be found?
Was in training for quite sometime, and it can be very demanding...for sure.
In addition, if the young guy does not have the right attitude from the beginning, it will be readily apparent, and the training funds can be applied to those that do.
80 hours.
Lookout ? What's that, Sir ?
LOOK OUT !
LOOK OUT !
Last edited by Sleeve Wing; 27th Apr 2004 at 19:59.
Why bother with the 80 hours? Only a matter of time before thats too expensive as well.
Somethings just not right here. Surely there is basic airmanship that only time at the wheel will give, and this cannot be gained in 80 hours in my opinion.
Splat
Somethings just not right here. Surely there is basic airmanship that only time at the wheel will give, and this cannot be gained in 80 hours in my opinion.
Splat
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And in some airlines Airmanship is being suffocated out of existence by SOPs that are so stifling that you can't even fart except in the company way.
In a few years time there simply won't be any airmanship left, but all the FOs will have fifty hours flying in singles, plus sim, so that'll be OK, won't it?
It's a gift, you can't learn it...(apologies to 19 Course...)
In a few years time there simply won't be any airmanship left, but all the FOs will have fifty hours flying in singles, plus sim, so that'll be OK, won't it?
It's a gift, you can't learn it...(apologies to 19 Course...)
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The days of the Single Crew MEIR are coming to an end from 2006
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You can see it coming - SOPs that stop thought processes and cover every eventuality become programmes (computer programmes) coupled with pilots who never fly a real aeroplane (only a sim) this can all soon be reduced to the foolproof CIC - computer in charge.
We are testing the logic (software) for the next generation as the hardware exists already. ETOPS reckons the chance of a catastrophe is ... so when the human-free flight deck approaches this level of risk and the cost of employing people to make mistakes has risen we will see hundreds of pax committing themselves to the air - on their own. Autoland is proven. Slots only exist because we can' t be relied on to get to a point in space at a particular second.
ATC - no more, the transponders talk to each other already. Separation - we only worry because we can see all these fast moving tubes getting nearer and nearer. As long as they all miss each other everything is fine - computers don't get tired and once we have proved the logic works - hey presto!
It will cut down on security costs as there will no longer be a flight deck to interfere with and only pax to check.
Cabin crew happen to be cheaper to hire and fire and will be able to report any inflight problems. In these selfservice days why have so many - a video (CD) and your own lifejacket will be all that is needed, and a coffee/tea machine by the toilet.
How long until this happens ?
PS - Accident - whose fault ? Computer glitch. Who pays ? A natural hazard.
We are testing the logic (software) for the next generation as the hardware exists already. ETOPS reckons the chance of a catastrophe is ... so when the human-free flight deck approaches this level of risk and the cost of employing people to make mistakes has risen we will see hundreds of pax committing themselves to the air - on their own. Autoland is proven. Slots only exist because we can' t be relied on to get to a point in space at a particular second.
ATC - no more, the transponders talk to each other already. Separation - we only worry because we can see all these fast moving tubes getting nearer and nearer. As long as they all miss each other everything is fine - computers don't get tired and once we have proved the logic works - hey presto!
It will cut down on security costs as there will no longer be a flight deck to interfere with and only pax to check.
Cabin crew happen to be cheaper to hire and fire and will be able to report any inflight problems. In these selfservice days why have so many - a video (CD) and your own lifejacket will be all that is needed, and a coffee/tea machine by the toilet.
How long until this happens ?
PS - Accident - whose fault ? Computer glitch. Who pays ? A natural hazard.
These young co-pilots will get it alright, provided companies will approach the subject in the correct way.
Is this to extend to private ops (ie will I still be able to go around in my twin in IFR using private privileges?)
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Unmanned Combat Plane Tested...
The military moved a step closer to taking pilots out of the action with the successful test of a new drone bomber. Under remote control, Boeing's X-45 Unmanned Combat Air System (UCAS) dropped a dummy bomb to within inches of a target truck on the desert at Edwards Air Force Base in California. The pilot was 80 miles away when he pickled the bomb. "It's absolutely a huge step forward for us," Boeing's Rob Horton told the Associated Press. "It shows the capability of an unmanned airplane to carry weapons and people someday." There's nothing new about drones packing heat. Armed versions of reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) have been used in Afghanistan. Boeing claims the X-45 is the first drone built for the purpose of dropping bombs and sees a bright future for the tailless, stealthy-looking jet. This technology is pioneering the way for future pilotless travel. Boeing hopes to build hundreds and the military has already said the drones have a role in performing extraordinarily dangerous missions such as taking out missile and radar sites. Such security doesn't come cheap, however. Each X-45 will cost between $10 million and $15 million, but it's not clear if that includes all the stuff (and people) on the ground needed to make them work.
The military moved a step closer to taking pilots out of the action with the successful test of a new drone bomber. Under remote control, Boeing's X-45 Unmanned Combat Air System (UCAS) dropped a dummy bomb to within inches of a target truck on the desert at Edwards Air Force Base in California. The pilot was 80 miles away when he pickled the bomb. "It's absolutely a huge step forward for us," Boeing's Rob Horton told the Associated Press. "It shows the capability of an unmanned airplane to carry weapons and people someday." There's nothing new about drones packing heat. Armed versions of reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) have been used in Afghanistan. Boeing claims the X-45 is the first drone built for the purpose of dropping bombs and sees a bright future for the tailless, stealthy-looking jet. This technology is pioneering the way for future pilotless travel. Boeing hopes to build hundreds and the military has already said the drones have a role in performing extraordinarily dangerous missions such as taking out missile and radar sites. Such security doesn't come cheap, however. Each X-45 will cost between $10 million and $15 million, but it's not clear if that includes all the stuff (and people) on the ground needed to make them work.
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Just another method to overload the commander. And should he/she succumb to the stress in-flight... 81 hours and some time in a sim will not be adequate for a safe single crew approach and landing. God help the passengers. Maybe some media hype to alert the public would stall this abhorent idea before it gains too much momentum.
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Hmmm,
Two ways to look at this, IMO.
First, select a guy/gal for training, with minimum experience.
Say...80 hours.
Train 'em the right way with your procedures, and have 'em stick to the plot, no excuses.
-OR-
Select the 'experienced' guy from the air taxi market, with minimal twin time...and have to 'retrain' 'em to do it the company way... period.
Having done a lot of this, IMO, option one is far easier.
No arguments...they don't know any better.
From my perspective, the end product will be far better trained.
This all assumes, of course, that no shortcuts are allowed.
If they are, all bets are OFF.
Just to add,
Trying to 'retrain' some young turkey who thinks he knows it all (at about 600-800 hours) is a real pain...
In this case, training Captains have a hard job.
Far better to start with folks with no preconceived notions.
If they don't perform, out the door, pronto.
Two ways to look at this, IMO.
First, select a guy/gal for training, with minimum experience.
Say...80 hours.
Train 'em the right way with your procedures, and have 'em stick to the plot, no excuses.
-OR-
Select the 'experienced' guy from the air taxi market, with minimal twin time...and have to 'retrain' 'em to do it the company way... period.
Having done a lot of this, IMO, option one is far easier.
No arguments...they don't know any better.
From my perspective, the end product will be far better trained.
This all assumes, of course, that no shortcuts are allowed.
If they are, all bets are OFF.
Just to add,
Trying to 'retrain' some young turkey who thinks he knows it all (at about 600-800 hours) is a real pain...
In this case, training Captains have a hard job.
Far better to start with folks with no preconceived notions.
If they don't perform, out the door, pronto.
Last edited by 411A; 28th Apr 2004 at 06:53.
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Back to recreational flying!
Couldn't agree more with Agaricus bisporus and ECWK.
For those of us to whom flying is a passion rather than a just another job,it is painful to see Airline SOPs slowly taking the pilot out of the decision making process. The day is not far off when Airliners will fly without pilots(possibly within the next 100 years of aviation)So i guess some of us were just lucky getting paid to do what we loved doing anyway.If the SOPs get too stifling,i'll just let the new 80 hour types get on with it,and take up single pilot recreational flying.(And avoid using airlines as a means of transportation!)
For those of us to whom flying is a passion rather than a just another job,it is painful to see Airline SOPs slowly taking the pilot out of the decision making process. The day is not far off when Airliners will fly without pilots(possibly within the next 100 years of aviation)So i guess some of us were just lucky getting paid to do what we loved doing anyway.If the SOPs get too stifling,i'll just let the new 80 hour types get on with it,and take up single pilot recreational flying.(And avoid using airlines as a means of transportation!)
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mmmmmmmmmm
Down to minimum approach and go around with single engine in a twin at 02.00 hrs in the morning, with grotty weather, freezing cold and just you in control and you get it wrong..........
1. in the sim just hit the freeze button and ask the experienced guy at the desk what happened.
2. in the aircraft, hit the deck and ask the guy with the feathered wings which cloud you should go and sit on.
From my experience the real thing can be a whole lot different to an nice warm sim.
1. in the sim just hit the freeze button and ask the experienced guy at the desk what happened.
2. in the aircraft, hit the deck and ask the guy with the feathered wings which cloud you should go and sit on.
From my experience the real thing can be a whole lot different to an nice warm sim.
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Currently under the JAA you need only 150hrs to go on to multicrew IR/type rating.
Are the extra 70hrs single-pilot, single engine VFR flying really that valuable?
411A takes the trainers perspective without getting hysterical about experience and airmanship - that surely is where the airlines will be coming from?
Cheap to train, easy to retain - isn't that the current mantra?
Are the extra 70hrs single-pilot, single engine VFR flying really that valuable?
411A takes the trainers perspective without getting hysterical about experience and airmanship - that surely is where the airlines will be coming from?
Cheap to train, easy to retain - isn't that the current mantra?
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Check out the trend over the last 50 years. The flight deck had a flight engineer, radio op. , nav. , and two pilots. Now only two pilots , and they are fast becoming just "System Operators" acting as the interface between ATC and the aircraft. I am sure management sees this "Expensive" weakest leak as the next cockpit down sizing. The captain ...... he'll be on the ground behind a radar screen and in the aircraft a person with sops and sim time. The system monitor in the cockpit will have to break the glass cover to attempt to disconnect the autopilot and most likely face a mountain of paper work and several visits to THE OFFICE to explain why.
Progress and technology can and will change the definition of pilot / aviator . And I am sure the "PILOTS" of the future will look back at this time in aviation and marvell at what "PILOTS" actually had to do or could do or should I say were allowed to do.
SOPS and 80 Hrs. sim........who would have thought!!!!!!
Progress and technology can and will change the definition of pilot / aviator . And I am sure the "PILOTS" of the future will look back at this time in aviation and marvell at what "PILOTS" actually had to do or could do or should I say were allowed to do.
SOPS and 80 Hrs. sim........who would have thought!!!!!!
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I agree with these plans. The 80 hours are sufficient to get the basic grasp but with the quality of the sims nowadays you get bette training in a sim than in the actual aircraft.
You have:
-The option to redo things easily
-Throw heavy problems in the decision process at the students that you would not do in the real aircraft
-Train as a crew rather than having the instructor right and the student left
-Log the situations on computers and video for post flight evaluation
Like with all things, there are always people who claim that it was better how we used to do it. They would still fly with the radio operator, flight engineer and navigator using the stars as our only means to navigate... or maybe the good old iron compass (the railroads!) Believe me if a slow moving body like ICAO starts saying things like this than the time is finally right!!
You have:
-The option to redo things easily
-Throw heavy problems in the decision process at the students that you would not do in the real aircraft
-Train as a crew rather than having the instructor right and the student left
-Log the situations on computers and video for post flight evaluation
Like with all things, there are always people who claim that it was better how we used to do it. They would still fly with the radio operator, flight engineer and navigator using the stars as our only means to navigate... or maybe the good old iron compass (the railroads!) Believe me if a slow moving body like ICAO starts saying things like this than the time is finally right!!
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Be the envy of your friends.
Fancy uniform - Big salary.
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Be a Pilot on an Airbus A330 by 2009.
Just as an addendum to the tongue-in-cheek posting, checked an experienced 767 Captain out on a Tiger Moth yesterday.
Said it was the most difficult but rewarding flying he had ever done; - and that included the lot - difficult lookout, engine handling and the real hands on, tailwheel landings in a crosswind. First real solo 25 years on ?
Where am I going to get my future pilots ?
Rgds, Sleeve.
Be the envy of your friends.
Fancy uniform - Big salary.
BE AN AIRLINE PILOT.
Multimedia ATPL Home Flying Course.
In House Examiners. Airline Placement Scheme
Be a Pilot on an Airbus A330 by 2009.
Just as an addendum to the tongue-in-cheek posting, checked an experienced 767 Captain out on a Tiger Moth yesterday.
Said it was the most difficult but rewarding flying he had ever done; - and that included the lot - difficult lookout, engine handling and the real hands on, tailwheel landings in a crosswind. First real solo 25 years on ?
Where am I going to get my future pilots ?
Rgds, Sleeve.
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How is this going to affect training providers?
As far as I know there aint many who have got level D sims. What are they going to do buy them? Not likely.
And what of the self sponsored wannabe?
The reduction in the number of training providers able to offer the course, coupled the fact that this will be an integrated only course, will probably lead to a sharp increase in price. I’m guessing £75,000?
And then what? You’re spat out into the job market with 80 hours in your log book! Bar the very small percentage that find their way straight in to a multi crew job, the majority will be up a certain well known creek without a paddle…
Getting the first 1000 hours is hard enough now but under this system it will be almost impossible. Instruct? Cant. Tow gliders? Nope. Air taxi? Got to be kidding!
Under the current system you can build more hours and become more employable as time goes on. With the proposed system you don’t have a way of improving your employability, you just send off your paltry CV in hope. The problem is the longer it takes you to get a job the less “current” you become, you’ve not had a chance to get any flying practice done as the only thing you are qualified to fly is a level D sim. So all the “fresh” wannabes who finished their course 6 months after you now jump the job queue ahead of you.
So you’ve got a tiny window in which to get a job in a *very* tough market or your airline career is going to be over before it started. And guess what? You’re going to be the bottom of the food chain behind the many qualified experienced pilots who are after that shiny jet job.
Thanks ICAO.
--
HaM
As far as I know there aint many who have got level D sims. What are they going to do buy them? Not likely.
And what of the self sponsored wannabe?
The reduction in the number of training providers able to offer the course, coupled the fact that this will be an integrated only course, will probably lead to a sharp increase in price. I’m guessing £75,000?
And then what? You’re spat out into the job market with 80 hours in your log book! Bar the very small percentage that find their way straight in to a multi crew job, the majority will be up a certain well known creek without a paddle…
Getting the first 1000 hours is hard enough now but under this system it will be almost impossible. Instruct? Cant. Tow gliders? Nope. Air taxi? Got to be kidding!
Under the current system you can build more hours and become more employable as time goes on. With the proposed system you don’t have a way of improving your employability, you just send off your paltry CV in hope. The problem is the longer it takes you to get a job the less “current” you become, you’ve not had a chance to get any flying practice done as the only thing you are qualified to fly is a level D sim. So all the “fresh” wannabes who finished their course 6 months after you now jump the job queue ahead of you.
So you’ve got a tiny window in which to get a job in a *very* tough market or your airline career is going to be over before it started. And guess what? You’re going to be the bottom of the food chain behind the many qualified experienced pilots who are after that shiny jet job.
Thanks ICAO.
--
HaM
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Ladies and Gentlemen!
Welcome on board of this B747-400. You would be glad to know that we still carry pilots on our aircraft. Our highly experienced Captain has a total of 5000 hours, out of whcih a whole 1000 on real airplanes. YOu will appreciate also the qualities of your first officer. He has completed his flyig licence at home on the latest version of MS FLight Simulator with flying colours. Now, sit back relax and enjoy the flight with us! BON VOYAGE...
Welcome on board of this B747-400. You would be glad to know that we still carry pilots on our aircraft. Our highly experienced Captain has a total of 5000 hours, out of whcih a whole 1000 on real airplanes. YOu will appreciate also the qualities of your first officer. He has completed his flyig licence at home on the latest version of MS FLight Simulator with flying colours. Now, sit back relax and enjoy the flight with us! BON VOYAGE...
Half a Mexican posts some interesting and valid points. My guess is that this option would only be available for sponsored cadets. Clearly, it's a high risk strategy for the self improver, or another nail in their coffin....
Why are the regulatory authorities so intent on stopping this route?
S
Why are the regulatory authorities so intent on stopping this route?
S