Hour-build in US straight after JAA PPL/Night.
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Hour-build in US straight after JAA PPL/Night.
Hello.
I have searched and searched and I must have missed the vital bit of information on this subject. I hope to go to the US for my JAA PPL/MEP/Night and 150 hours, then come back to the UK for ATPL exams and CPL/IR.
Can anyone clarify whether it is possible for me to go to the US and acquire a JAA PPL/Night and then go on to hour-build before taking my MEP. The information that I have found so far seems to suggest that it will not be possible for me to do the hour-building without a FAA PPL.
Any information which might make this a little clearer would be extremely appreciated, especially if you have first-hand experience of my planned route of study.
Thank-you all in advance,
CF
Ps: I asked the CAA and they directed me to an 825 page document… aaah!!!
I have searched and searched and I must have missed the vital bit of information on this subject. I hope to go to the US for my JAA PPL/MEP/Night and 150 hours, then come back to the UK for ATPL exams and CPL/IR.
Can anyone clarify whether it is possible for me to go to the US and acquire a JAA PPL/Night and then go on to hour-build before taking my MEP. The information that I have found so far seems to suggest that it will not be possible for me to do the hour-building without a FAA PPL.
Any information which might make this a little clearer would be extremely appreciated, especially if you have first-hand experience of my planned route of study.
Thank-you all in advance,
CF
Ps: I asked the CAA and they directed me to an 825 page document… aaah!!!
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You can not fly solo in the US without an FAA license.
If you already hold a JAA PPL, the easiest way of solving this is to get an FAA "license based on a foreign license". To get this, you have to send a form to the FAA. Also, send a form with a cheque to the CAA. On the first of these forms, you have to specify an FSDO somewhere in the US where you will collect your license from. You should speak to your chosen flying school, who will tell you where the nearest one is. Then just pop along to the FSDO and pick up the license. No flying involved.... however, you must fly with an instructor to get a BFR before you can use your license, as with any other FAA license.
But if you're doing your JAA license in the US, you will already have some method of flying solo in the US, since this is a requirement of getting the license. I don't know how schools generally do this (having not done PPL training in the US) - but I would imagine you will finish the course with either an FAA Student license or an FAA PPL, as well as a JAA PPL???
One more thought, though - do you really want to do all your flying in the US? UK airspace, r/t, terrain, air law and aviation customs are a little different to America. Experiencing both is definitely recommended. Getting right up to 150 hours with a UK license having never flowin the UK sounds like it may not be the best way of going about things to me?
FFF
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If you already hold a JAA PPL, the easiest way of solving this is to get an FAA "license based on a foreign license". To get this, you have to send a form to the FAA. Also, send a form with a cheque to the CAA. On the first of these forms, you have to specify an FSDO somewhere in the US where you will collect your license from. You should speak to your chosen flying school, who will tell you where the nearest one is. Then just pop along to the FSDO and pick up the license. No flying involved.... however, you must fly with an instructor to get a BFR before you can use your license, as with any other FAA license.
But if you're doing your JAA license in the US, you will already have some method of flying solo in the US, since this is a requirement of getting the license. I don't know how schools generally do this (having not done PPL training in the US) - but I would imagine you will finish the course with either an FAA Student license or an FAA PPL, as well as a JAA PPL???
One more thought, though - do you really want to do all your flying in the US? UK airspace, r/t, terrain, air law and aviation customs are a little different to America. Experiencing both is definitely recommended. Getting right up to 150 hours with a UK license having never flowin the UK sounds like it may not be the best way of going about things to me?
FFF
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That's right, you don't want to come back to the UK for the CPL (or maybe just the last bit of the IR) and have to get used to UK/European airspace at that point! Obviously, hour building in the US is VERY cost-effective (with the £ at 1.9 US $ or so and no landing fees), but ideally, you want to keep some of your hour buiding for UK skies... they are, after all, among the world's most demanding and congested.
It's good experience, mainly if you treat each hour-building sortie as an exercise. I found it useful to do a bit of flying (when the purse strings allowed) during the ATPL course, if only to remind me why I was going through all that misery!
Also, flying in Britain allows you to try nearby foreign airspaces (France, Belgium, Ireland...)
It's good experience, mainly if you treat each hour-building sortie as an exercise. I found it useful to do a bit of flying (when the purse strings allowed) during the ATPL course, if only to remind me why I was going through all that misery!
Also, flying in Britain allows you to try nearby foreign airspaces (France, Belgium, Ireland...)
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Hi ConcreteFloater,
In order to fly as pilot in command on N registered aeroplanes in the United States, you will require an FAA PPL.
To obtain an FAA PPL you can do so on the basis of your JAA PPL by sending a fax to the FAA and a fax / fee to the CAA. Once this paperwork has been sorted out you can go down to the local FAA office in the USA and pick up your FAA PPL. THen its a simple matter of getting a BFR (Bi-annual Flight Review) to validate your FAA PPL.
However you are looking to hour build after obtaining your JAA PPL in the USA without returning home to the UK to have your JAA PPL issued. In this case you cannot go down validation of your JAA PPL route.
Instead you will need to sit and pass the FAA PPL Written Test and the FAA PPL Checkride which includes an Oral Exam plus Flight Test. Once you have those out of the way then you'll be able to immediately fly as Pilot in Command on an N reg aeroplane the world over.
As you will have just passed your JAA PPL you should be fine at passing an FAA PPL flight test, all you will need to do is a few ground reference manouvers. I'd say budget around 5 extra hours on top of your JAA PPL to obtain the unrestricted FAA PPL as well.
Oh before you can have the FAA PPL issued you'll need to have done the Night flying as required by the FARs... so include your Night Qualification with your JAA PPL course.
Okay before anyone says you can fly as Pilot in Command in the states before obtaining your JAA PPL, yes you can but this will be on the FAA Class 3 Medical which also acts as the FAA Student Pilots Certificate so youi'll have the required FAA medical already.
Then it'll be a case of flying and then taking your MEP course which you'll be able add to your FAA PPL as well as your JAA PPL. Well actually I'm going to have to check to ensure you can do the JAA MEP *before* your JAA PPL is issued as that is what you'll be doing.
If I remember correctly you can do the JAA MEP rating before you have the 70 hours P1 time... BUT you can't send your application for the MEP rating to the CAA until you do have the required P1 hours.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
In order to fly as pilot in command on N registered aeroplanes in the United States, you will require an FAA PPL.
To obtain an FAA PPL you can do so on the basis of your JAA PPL by sending a fax to the FAA and a fax / fee to the CAA. Once this paperwork has been sorted out you can go down to the local FAA office in the USA and pick up your FAA PPL. THen its a simple matter of getting a BFR (Bi-annual Flight Review) to validate your FAA PPL.
However you are looking to hour build after obtaining your JAA PPL in the USA without returning home to the UK to have your JAA PPL issued. In this case you cannot go down validation of your JAA PPL route.
Instead you will need to sit and pass the FAA PPL Written Test and the FAA PPL Checkride which includes an Oral Exam plus Flight Test. Once you have those out of the way then you'll be able to immediately fly as Pilot in Command on an N reg aeroplane the world over.
As you will have just passed your JAA PPL you should be fine at passing an FAA PPL flight test, all you will need to do is a few ground reference manouvers. I'd say budget around 5 extra hours on top of your JAA PPL to obtain the unrestricted FAA PPL as well.
Oh before you can have the FAA PPL issued you'll need to have done the Night flying as required by the FARs... so include your Night Qualification with your JAA PPL course.
Okay before anyone says you can fly as Pilot in Command in the states before obtaining your JAA PPL, yes you can but this will be on the FAA Class 3 Medical which also acts as the FAA Student Pilots Certificate so youi'll have the required FAA medical already.
Then it'll be a case of flying and then taking your MEP course which you'll be able add to your FAA PPL as well as your JAA PPL. Well actually I'm going to have to check to ensure you can do the JAA MEP *before* your JAA PPL is issued as that is what you'll be doing.
If I remember correctly you can do the JAA MEP rating before you have the 70 hours P1 time... BUT you can't send your application for the MEP rating to the CAA until you do have the required P1 hours.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
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Thanks to everyone for all your advice.
After considering your suggestions, can I ask what you think of the following plan-of-attack?
Go to US:
- JAA PPL/Night (Good experience for JAA exam yet to come)
- FAA PPL (May as well as extra cost of tests is relatively small)
- FAA IR (Will give me more scope when planning hour-building and JAA IMC will not be worth anything in the US)
- S/E Hour-build (Hopefully some interesting cross-country touring and airspace experience)
- FAA/JAA MEP
- M/E Hour-build (won't do any harm and would be good for my log-book)
Return to UK with:
FAA PPL/IR, JAA PPL/Night, FAA/JAA MEP & 140 - 150 hours
In UK:
- 10 hours (Some with an instructor, to gain experience & familiarisation in UK air-space and iron out any bad habits)
- ATPL Ground-school
- JAA CPL
- JAA IR (Converted from FAA/IR)
- CRM & MCC (Virtually compulsory these days)
Hopefully after all this I will have a JAA CPL/IR (fATPL) and some spare cash to spend on building some good quality 'complex-twin' hours, in an attempt to put my CV slightly higher in 'the pile'.
As I am sure you are all aware, there are may routes with no 'ideal' but any thoughts on this option would be greatly appreciated.
Thank-you for your help and experience,
CF.
After considering your suggestions, can I ask what you think of the following plan-of-attack?
Go to US:
- JAA PPL/Night (Good experience for JAA exam yet to come)
- FAA PPL (May as well as extra cost of tests is relatively small)
- FAA IR (Will give me more scope when planning hour-building and JAA IMC will not be worth anything in the US)
- S/E Hour-build (Hopefully some interesting cross-country touring and airspace experience)
- FAA/JAA MEP
- M/E Hour-build (won't do any harm and would be good for my log-book)
Return to UK with:
FAA PPL/IR, JAA PPL/Night, FAA/JAA MEP & 140 - 150 hours
In UK:
- 10 hours (Some with an instructor, to gain experience & familiarisation in UK air-space and iron out any bad habits)
- ATPL Ground-school
- JAA CPL
- JAA IR (Converted from FAA/IR)
- CRM & MCC (Virtually compulsory these days)
Hopefully after all this I will have a JAA CPL/IR (fATPL) and some spare cash to spend on building some good quality 'complex-twin' hours, in an attempt to put my CV slightly higher in 'the pile'.
As I am sure you are all aware, there are may routes with no 'ideal' but any thoughts on this option would be greatly appreciated.
Thank-you for your help and experience,
CF.
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CF,
Your latest plan sounds very good to me. I do have two points:
1) The FAA IR: Are you aware of what privileges that gives you on a G-registered aircraft (for use when you return to the UK, before you do your JAR IR)? Have a search of the Private Flying forum, where it's been discussed at length, and ask if you have any questions.
2) The JAR CPL requires a minimum of 100 hours of P1. Your hour-building includes quite a lot of dual (FAA PPL, FAA IR, ME rating) - you risk reaching the total time required for the CPL with a serious lack of P1 time. By the time you get your P1 time up to the required level, you will have a relatively high total time - which is a good thing, so long as you are aware of it, and have budgeted for it.
FFF
---------------
Your latest plan sounds very good to me. I do have two points:
1) The FAA IR: Are you aware of what privileges that gives you on a G-registered aircraft (for use when you return to the UK, before you do your JAR IR)? Have a search of the Private Flying forum, where it's been discussed at length, and ask if you have any questions.
2) The JAR CPL requires a minimum of 100 hours of P1. Your hour-building includes quite a lot of dual (FAA PPL, FAA IR, ME rating) - you risk reaching the total time required for the CPL with a serious lack of P1 time. By the time you get your P1 time up to the required level, you will have a relatively high total time - which is a good thing, so long as you are aware of it, and have budgeted for it.
FFF
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Having a lot more time than necessary for the JAA CPL flight course isn't a bad thing in my opinion...
As I started off flying privately I had four hundred and something hours before deciding to do my FAA CPL/IR... I now have five hundred and thirty odd hours and am looking at around 600 hours total time before starting the JAA CPL course (got to pass the ATPL exams first).
During those hours I have enjoyed flying, have had three great flying vacations touring the USA and a few hundred hours flying around the UK and the near continent *without* the need to hour build for certain ratings etc.
This has, I believe, made me a little more comfortable in flying as opposed to when I had only had the 150 hours required... but may I add this hasn't made me complacent.
Once I have my JAA CPL/IR I should be very near to the 700 hours total time required to apply to Air Taxi outfits... also the added experience as a "PPL" will probably make me teach people in a different way (just different, not better) as I've made quite a few of those classic mistakes people do after obtaining their licences...
The FAA IR:
On G registered aeroplanes the FAA IR will give you the ability to fly in IMC outside of controlled airspace. It will not however give you the full IMC privilages to fly IFR / IMC in Class D.
In order to obtain the CAA IMC privilages off the back of your FAA IR you will need a JAA PPL and to formerly apply to the CAA to add the IMC to the JAA PPL. If you have obtained your FAA IR within the previous 2 years you'll be excempt from the IMC Written Test and Flight Test. You will however be required to renew your IMC rating at the normal two year period just like every other IMC rated pilots.
You'll probably be better off doing your FAA IR as a Part 141 straight after your FAA PPL. (Or soon afterwards). If you did it via Part 61 then you'd need 50 hours of P1 cross country time. X-C in the FAA terms is a flight with a landing at least 50nm from the point of departure.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
As I started off flying privately I had four hundred and something hours before deciding to do my FAA CPL/IR... I now have five hundred and thirty odd hours and am looking at around 600 hours total time before starting the JAA CPL course (got to pass the ATPL exams first).
During those hours I have enjoyed flying, have had three great flying vacations touring the USA and a few hundred hours flying around the UK and the near continent *without* the need to hour build for certain ratings etc.
This has, I believe, made me a little more comfortable in flying as opposed to when I had only had the 150 hours required... but may I add this hasn't made me complacent.
Once I have my JAA CPL/IR I should be very near to the 700 hours total time required to apply to Air Taxi outfits... also the added experience as a "PPL" will probably make me teach people in a different way (just different, not better) as I've made quite a few of those classic mistakes people do after obtaining their licences...
The FAA IR:
On G registered aeroplanes the FAA IR will give you the ability to fly in IMC outside of controlled airspace. It will not however give you the full IMC privilages to fly IFR / IMC in Class D.
In order to obtain the CAA IMC privilages off the back of your FAA IR you will need a JAA PPL and to formerly apply to the CAA to add the IMC to the JAA PPL. If you have obtained your FAA IR within the previous 2 years you'll be excempt from the IMC Written Test and Flight Test. You will however be required to renew your IMC rating at the normal two year period just like every other IMC rated pilots.
You'll probably be better off doing your FAA IR as a Part 141 straight after your FAA PPL. (Or soon afterwards). If you did it via Part 61 then you'd need 50 hours of P1 cross country time. X-C in the FAA terms is a flight with a landing at least 50nm from the point of departure.
Hope this helps.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
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CZ,
Completely agree with your post. I also had more than the minimum hours when I did my CPL (although not as many as you) - it is no bad thing. But only if it's planned for and budgeted for - I wouldn't want CF to reach 150-200 hours, be ready to do his CPL, and only then discover that he doesn't have enough P1 time and he needs to find more money (and time) to build some more hours.
Nice summary of the privileges of the FAA IR on a G-reg aircraft, the only thing you've missed out, I think, is that "In order to obtain the CAA IMC privilages off the back of your FAA IR you will need... to formerly apply to the CAA to add the IMC to the JAA PPL" .... and send the CAA a cheque, of course!
FFF
--------------
Completely agree with your post. I also had more than the minimum hours when I did my CPL (although not as many as you) - it is no bad thing. But only if it's planned for and budgeted for - I wouldn't want CF to reach 150-200 hours, be ready to do his CPL, and only then discover that he doesn't have enough P1 time and he needs to find more money (and time) to build some more hours.
Nice summary of the privileges of the FAA IR on a G-reg aircraft, the only thing you've missed out, I think, is that "In order to obtain the CAA IMC privilages off the back of your FAA IR you will need... to formerly apply to the CAA to add the IMC to the JAA PPL" .... and send the CAA a cheque, of course!
FFF
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Tactics rather than cost.
A mountain of flying in the States in a gigantic hit.
Then long, long lay off with barely any flying while you sit the 14 little multiple choice friends.
A wait for a couple of possible resits.
Than its into commercial prep and flying at pro A/C and instructor costs? This is not the time to be paying these rates because you haven't flown for months. Expensive form of revision - especially if you are still not comfotable with Euro airspace and RT.
Then into Flight Testing with CAFU examiners????
Sorry CF - Kudos indeed for thinking it through and asking - the vast majority don't. However, I think you've produced something that looks great and economical on paper but ignores every possible real life issue.
I know the clock is ticking once you've done the writtens but I can't think of a worse way, state of mind or flying currency to get into aircraft with an examiner for your professional licenses.
I'd suggest you do structured learning in the air - FAA/IR or multi then some equally disciplined consolidation flying just before the JAA pro flight courses and testing.
Put the ATPL's in the middle somewhere. This might mean two trips to the States or doing some European hour building. Extra costs? Big deal?? Not a bit of it if you think it through.
Can somebody please give ConcreteFloater a realistic cost for a repeat IR exam flight and test fee to put it into perspective??
A mountain of flying in the States in a gigantic hit.
Then long, long lay off with barely any flying while you sit the 14 little multiple choice friends.
A wait for a couple of possible resits.
Than its into commercial prep and flying at pro A/C and instructor costs? This is not the time to be paying these rates because you haven't flown for months. Expensive form of revision - especially if you are still not comfotable with Euro airspace and RT.
Then into Flight Testing with CAFU examiners????
Sorry CF - Kudos indeed for thinking it through and asking - the vast majority don't. However, I think you've produced something that looks great and economical on paper but ignores every possible real life issue.
I know the clock is ticking once you've done the writtens but I can't think of a worse way, state of mind or flying currency to get into aircraft with an examiner for your professional licenses.
I'd suggest you do structured learning in the air - FAA/IR or multi then some equally disciplined consolidation flying just before the JAA pro flight courses and testing.
Put the ATPL's in the middle somewhere. This might mean two trips to the States or doing some European hour building. Extra costs? Big deal?? Not a bit of it if you think it through.
Can somebody please give ConcreteFloater a realistic cost for a repeat IR exam flight and test fee to put it into perspective??
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How silly of me to forget the £67 (or whatever it is now) cheque that the CAA require to type "IMC" into the ratings page of the PPL... oh you also get an extra revalidation page in your book.
Yes I should be looking at this more from the viewpoint of someone with zero hours... it would be very frustrating for CF to get to the 150 hours or so with only, say, 30 hours P1 thus needing to spend another £7000 (UK based costs) on an extra 70 hours that he otherwise wouldn't require.
I kind of agree with Towers in that the plan looks great on paper but in reality will probably end of costing quite a considerable amount more.
Looking into the costs that PPRuNe Towers has asked someone to find, I have found the test fees in the following document.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...es_prof_05.pdf
So a realistic analysis for say an initial JAA Instrument Rating are as follows:
CAA Initial Test Fee of £637
2 Hours Multi Hire £500
Total £1137
Quite an expensive couple of hours eh? Now that'll be the cost as long as you pass first time.
If you don't and you only get a partial pass (quite a few people do) then it'll be another test with the examiner which will cost something like:
CAA Partial Pass Rest Test Fee of £426
1.5 Hours Multi Hire £375
Total: £801
Expensive day out.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Yes I should be looking at this more from the viewpoint of someone with zero hours... it would be very frustrating for CF to get to the 150 hours or so with only, say, 30 hours P1 thus needing to spend another £7000 (UK based costs) on an extra 70 hours that he otherwise wouldn't require.
I kind of agree with Towers in that the plan looks great on paper but in reality will probably end of costing quite a considerable amount more.
Looking into the costs that PPRuNe Towers has asked someone to find, I have found the test fees in the following document.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fc...es_prof_05.pdf
So a realistic analysis for say an initial JAA Instrument Rating are as follows:
CAA Initial Test Fee of £637
2 Hours Multi Hire £500
Total £1137
Quite an expensive couple of hours eh? Now that'll be the cost as long as you pass first time.
If you don't and you only get a partial pass (quite a few people do) then it'll be another test with the examiner which will cost something like:
CAA Partial Pass Rest Test Fee of £426
1.5 Hours Multi Hire £375
Total: £801
Expensive day out.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
Last edited by Charlie Zulu; 2nd Apr 2004 at 15:46.
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Once again, a big thank-you for your replies.
As I am sure you are aware it is possible to pay £60,000+ to have an 'integrated' school hold ones hand from Hour Zero to fATPL (and a pat on the back). For those of us who are budget-conscious the path is some what less defined, and that is exactly why your 'been-there-done-that-got-the-T-shirt' experience is of huge importance to, not only myself, but others who are faced with the same situation.
FFF your point about achieving minimum P1 hours has shown a serious lack of foresight on my part, and as both you and CZ have pointed out, I would have very little 'true' experience.
PPRuNe Towers. I like the idea of building some hours after the ATPLs. My initial reasoning behind going FAA PPL straight into FAA IR was purely to allow myself freedom when choosing hour building days, rather than needing VFR conditions. In retrospect, worrying about a lack of VFR days in the southern US summer, was probably rather too cautious on my part. Perhaps I should just got to the US and have some fun flying. Get my PPL, build some of hours, and perhaps get a MEP rating. Come to the UK, work hard and pass the ATPLs... then have some more fun finishing off my hour requirements whilst getting used to UK airspace, R/T etc... then, feeling relaxed and refreshed start the CPL/IR.
When you point out the cost of re-sitting a CPL or IR, you certainly make a strong argument for pre-empting the cost and putting it towards some quality flying hours and training. The result, hopefully: +10 hours in the log book and a valuable first-time pass. Rather than: minimum CPL/IR hours and a re-sit... a very strong argument when put in black-and-white!
Thank-you.
As I am sure you are aware it is possible to pay £60,000+ to have an 'integrated' school hold ones hand from Hour Zero to fATPL (and a pat on the back). For those of us who are budget-conscious the path is some what less defined, and that is exactly why your 'been-there-done-that-got-the-T-shirt' experience is of huge importance to, not only myself, but others who are faced with the same situation.
FFF your point about achieving minimum P1 hours has shown a serious lack of foresight on my part, and as both you and CZ have pointed out, I would have very little 'true' experience.
PPRuNe Towers. I like the idea of building some hours after the ATPLs. My initial reasoning behind going FAA PPL straight into FAA IR was purely to allow myself freedom when choosing hour building days, rather than needing VFR conditions. In retrospect, worrying about a lack of VFR days in the southern US summer, was probably rather too cautious on my part. Perhaps I should just got to the US and have some fun flying. Get my PPL, build some of hours, and perhaps get a MEP rating. Come to the UK, work hard and pass the ATPLs... then have some more fun finishing off my hour requirements whilst getting used to UK airspace, R/T etc... then, feeling relaxed and refreshed start the CPL/IR.
When you point out the cost of re-sitting a CPL or IR, you certainly make a strong argument for pre-empting the cost and putting it towards some quality flying hours and training. The result, hopefully: +10 hours in the log book and a valuable first-time pass. Rather than: minimum CPL/IR hours and a re-sit... a very strong argument when put in black-and-white!
Thank-you.
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... and as normal human beings we have a carrot during the ATPL writtens slog. I study tonight, tomorrow, next week and so on and I've got some cracking flying to look forward to.
This should not be discounted as simplistic - it really does help to have something to look forward to when the study for the writtens can seem without an end in sight. Keeps motivation up better than anything I know
Regards
rob
This should not be discounted as simplistic - it really does help to have something to look forward to when the study for the writtens can seem without an end in sight. Keeps motivation up better than anything I know
Regards
rob
