Flight Training Differences - FAA and JAA
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Flight Training Differences - FAA and JAA
OK - first off - this is not intended to open a "can of worms." I am genuinely curious about this.
For those of you who have trained (flight portion) in the U.S. as well as the E.U. what are the major differences in the "flight portion" of your training.
For those of you who have trained (flight portion) in the U.S. as well as the E.U. what are the major differences in the "flight portion" of your training.
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Shon,
It would be a long message with a lot of details if I were to describe all differences between JAA training and FAA training.
I would say that FAA is more oriented towards general aviation and JAA more towards airline procedures.
For CPL :
- No soft field takeoffs and landings for JAA.
- Short field landings are more precise for FAA (100 feet). Also FAA does power-off landings within 200 ft. JAA is more relaxed.
- Both do stalls. JAA does turning stalls also that FAA only does for CFIs.
- No slow flight for JAA. FAA does that.
- No chandelles, lazy eights, eights on pylons with JAA. FAA does all that.
- No Vmc demo and lift/drag demo for multi-engine JAA. FAA does it.
- Partial panel work for JAA CPL. FAA does it mostly for IR.
- Navigation is the same. Arrival within 3 minutes of estimated ETA. Big difference is that JAA doesn't do pilotage; only navigation and dead reckoning. I would say that JAA navigation is more precise.
- FAA doesn't do diversions under the hood. JAA does it, which is very confusing because you are not supposed to continue in IMC without an IR !!!
- There is absolutely NO oral with JAA. FAA oral is harder, lots of regulations, aircraft systems, emergencies, etc ...
For IR:
- More accurate than FAA. 1/2 scale deflections instead of 3/4 for FAA. 5 deg on NDBs. FAA doesn't do NDBs anymore, it does GPS instead that JAA doesn't do yet.
- Single engine go-arounds and holds for JAA. FAA doesn't do.
- FAA does limited panel approaches that JAA doesn't do. That's a hard stuff.
- Again the oral is MUCH harder for FAA. JAA doesn't teach students to brieff approaches. No lost-com procedures. No questions on charts, approach plates, regulations, systems. NOTHING !
- Also JAA requires 50/55 hrs training while FAA requires only 40 hrs but there is a big difference. FAA requires 40 hours "hood time" while JAA is 50 hrs instrument training time. 1 hour "hood time" for FAA is usually 1.3 total fligth time. For JAA it would be 1.3 towards your 50 hrs. So, at the end of the day, 50 hrs JAA is VERY close to 40 hrs "hood time" FAA.
That's the BIG picture ...
It would be a long message with a lot of details if I were to describe all differences between JAA training and FAA training.
I would say that FAA is more oriented towards general aviation and JAA more towards airline procedures.
For CPL :
- No soft field takeoffs and landings for JAA.
- Short field landings are more precise for FAA (100 feet). Also FAA does power-off landings within 200 ft. JAA is more relaxed.
- Both do stalls. JAA does turning stalls also that FAA only does for CFIs.
- No slow flight for JAA. FAA does that.
- No chandelles, lazy eights, eights on pylons with JAA. FAA does all that.
- No Vmc demo and lift/drag demo for multi-engine JAA. FAA does it.
- Partial panel work for JAA CPL. FAA does it mostly for IR.
- Navigation is the same. Arrival within 3 minutes of estimated ETA. Big difference is that JAA doesn't do pilotage; only navigation and dead reckoning. I would say that JAA navigation is more precise.
- FAA doesn't do diversions under the hood. JAA does it, which is very confusing because you are not supposed to continue in IMC without an IR !!!
- There is absolutely NO oral with JAA. FAA oral is harder, lots of regulations, aircraft systems, emergencies, etc ...
For IR:
- More accurate than FAA. 1/2 scale deflections instead of 3/4 for FAA. 5 deg on NDBs. FAA doesn't do NDBs anymore, it does GPS instead that JAA doesn't do yet.
- Single engine go-arounds and holds for JAA. FAA doesn't do.
- FAA does limited panel approaches that JAA doesn't do. That's a hard stuff.
- Again the oral is MUCH harder for FAA. JAA doesn't teach students to brieff approaches. No lost-com procedures. No questions on charts, approach plates, regulations, systems. NOTHING !
- Also JAA requires 50/55 hrs training while FAA requires only 40 hrs but there is a big difference. FAA requires 40 hours "hood time" while JAA is 50 hrs instrument training time. 1 hour "hood time" for FAA is usually 1.3 total fligth time. For JAA it would be 1.3 towards your 50 hrs. So, at the end of the day, 50 hrs JAA is VERY close to 40 hrs "hood time" FAA.
That's the BIG picture ...
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Hi Dorosenco,
Are you sure?
The Full Procedure NDB approach with a circle to land was the last of the three approaches on my FAA IR checkride this summer.
You say JAA is more accurate than FAA... well that is true until the FAA candidate attempts their FAA ATP checkride. Now if I remember correctly the FAA ATP checkride is even more stringent on ILS deflections etc. The JAA candidate only has the CPL and IR checkrides, no seperate ATPL checkride.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
- More accurate than FAA. 1/2 scale deflections instead of 3/4 for FAA. 5 deg on NDBs. FAA doesn't do NDBs anymore, it does GPS instead that JAA doesn't do yet.
The Full Procedure NDB approach with a circle to land was the last of the three approaches on my FAA IR checkride this summer.
You say JAA is more accurate than FAA... well that is true until the FAA candidate attempts their FAA ATP checkride. Now if I remember correctly the FAA ATP checkride is even more stringent on ILS deflections etc. The JAA candidate only has the CPL and IR checkrides, no seperate ATPL checkride.
Best wishes,
Charlie Zulu.
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dorosenco
A lot of what you say is not done on JAA is of course taken into the theory exams, which are much harder (we have had students with full FAA ATPLs that have struggled with the JAA course). Not necessarily the best way of doing things, but these are not left out.
Briefing approaches and procedures is not really appropriate for a single-pilot IR (which the JAA one is, specifically). That would, I presume, be tested in the type rating, after being taught in that and the MCC course.
GPS is coming into the IR. It is in the new in the syllabus my employers have developed, though not yet in the test as it is not yet legal for a primary navigation in the UK.
Oh, and "you are not supposed to continue in IMC without an IR" is correct, and this part is being changed to a recovery to the airfield IMC, I believe. However the old system is good - you may have little choice but to divert IMC. Although that would suggest poor planning, that is not unknwn in commercial aviation, I have heard of it in flight instructors!
A lot of what you say is not done on JAA is of course taken into the theory exams, which are much harder (we have had students with full FAA ATPLs that have struggled with the JAA course). Not necessarily the best way of doing things, but these are not left out.
Briefing approaches and procedures is not really appropriate for a single-pilot IR (which the JAA one is, specifically). That would, I presume, be tested in the type rating, after being taught in that and the MCC course.
GPS is coming into the IR. It is in the new in the syllabus my employers have developed, though not yet in the test as it is not yet legal for a primary navigation in the UK.
Oh, and "you are not supposed to continue in IMC without an IR" is correct, and this part is being changed to a recovery to the airfield IMC, I believe. However the old system is good - you may have little choice but to divert IMC. Although that would suggest poor planning, that is not unknwn in commercial aviation, I have heard of it in flight instructors!
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FAA doesn't do NDBs anymore
)Swings and roundabouts really. Some things are harder under JAA and other things are harder under the FAA. For the CPL ME check ride the FAA examiner get you to plan and start flying a VFR flight somewhere (had Vegas for mine), then divert you at some point, VFR. All the time he'll randomly pull the mixture on one or the other engines, and expect the engine failure drill. This can be in the circuit, on the runway or in cruise flight. He'll also expect an engine shut down, whether he asks you 'shut down an engine' or just pull the fuel selector is up to him. For me he just turned off the fuel to one of the engines without me seeing, and as I wen't the engine failure drill I continued to full feather. If he doesn't want it he'll stop you before you you fully feather. They also expect a Vmc demo, and the usual stuff, stalls, steep turns, emergency decent plus a load of pattern work (short field, normal, asymetric etc). If you haven't already got a private ME with instrument privileges, then to add instrument privileges to the ME CPL you need to shoot two approaches, one asymetric....assuming you are already IR'd of course.
If you have the ME CPL, to add the SE privileges you have to do the usual stalls (power on, power off, turning) / steep turns, steep spirals, Eights on Pylons, Lazy 8's, Chandelles, pattern work (normal, short field, soft field, flapless all to within 100' of intended landing point).
If you are taking the initial in a SE, this must be complex, and is basically the SE add on above with the above VFR nav portion as well.
Cheers
EA
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The FAA examiner can require turning stalls at ANY level of pilot certificate, so that is not unique to JAA training.
Our local examiner often asks his Private candidates to do turning stalls.
Ray
Our local examiner often asks his Private candidates to do turning stalls.
Ray
Last edited by raysalmon; 12th Nov 2003 at 08:04.
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Good points here above, I agree...
- Yes, if the airport where you're flying has ONLY a NDB for non-precision approach than, yes, you might have to do it. If your airplane is IFR GPS equipped and current than the examiner would rather like to see you doing a GPS approach.
- We are talking here about the initial IR, not about the ATP. When you take your ATP you have at least 1,500 TT so you're expected to fly better than a guy with minimum of 70 TT.
- Yes, the examiner might expect you to do turning stalls for CPL instead of level stalls. Few examiners ask that, at least at my knowledge.
- I heard that the JAA will remove the IMC section from the CPL flight test, starting in 2006.
- Regarding the approach briefs I only want to point out that I had few students who used the WRONG approach plate only because they did not brief it. I think that briefing the approach doesn't have anything to do with single pilot. It will help you verify and remember important numbers. The FAA IR is supposed to be a Single Pilot IR also, so there must be a reason why the FAA teaches approach briefs ...
I'm not trying to prove that JAA is better than FAA or vice-versa. Just point out differences...
I still think that the JAA student pilots are weaker on aircraft systems of their specific aicraft than FAA students. I agree, they know more about EFIS and jet aircrafts ... I met some guys who just passed the JAA CPL and who had no clue on how to handle a prop overspeed on their PA28RT.
Again, guys. I'm just trying to show that the FAA IR is as good as the JAA IR. I'm tired of seeing threads on how weak the FAA IR is and how much better a UK IMC is ...
- Yes, if the airport where you're flying has ONLY a NDB for non-precision approach than, yes, you might have to do it. If your airplane is IFR GPS equipped and current than the examiner would rather like to see you doing a GPS approach.
- We are talking here about the initial IR, not about the ATP. When you take your ATP you have at least 1,500 TT so you're expected to fly better than a guy with minimum of 70 TT.
- Yes, the examiner might expect you to do turning stalls for CPL instead of level stalls. Few examiners ask that, at least at my knowledge.
- I heard that the JAA will remove the IMC section from the CPL flight test, starting in 2006.
- Regarding the approach briefs I only want to point out that I had few students who used the WRONG approach plate only because they did not brief it. I think that briefing the approach doesn't have anything to do with single pilot. It will help you verify and remember important numbers. The FAA IR is supposed to be a Single Pilot IR also, so there must be a reason why the FAA teaches approach briefs ...
I'm not trying to prove that JAA is better than FAA or vice-versa. Just point out differences...
I still think that the JAA student pilots are weaker on aircraft systems of their specific aicraft than FAA students. I agree, they know more about EFIS and jet aircrafts ... I met some guys who just passed the JAA CPL and who had no clue on how to handle a prop overspeed on their PA28RT.
Again, guys. I'm just trying to show that the FAA IR is as good as the JAA IR. I'm tired of seeing threads on how weak the FAA IR is and how much better a UK IMC is ...
Last edited by dorosenco; 12th Nov 2003 at 04:12.
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I would disagree with the approach brief single-pilot. I agree entirely that it can prevent using the wrong plate, but in the training and the test there is no actual danger in using the wrong plate, the instructor or examiner will prevent any hazard. The instruction and test are designed to make you safe in an operational situation. Last time I used an ILS I could not brief: my passengers would have been disturbed, I think. There was certainly no-one else up there who could have taken any useful information or given me advice. How many people brief in operation an approach if there is no second crewmember? If none, why train like this?
Under JARs the aircraft-specific systems come into the class- or type-rating training, as would your prop overspeed drills. They had obviously been badly-trained, as that should come into training for complex single or multi-engine aircraft in the CPL.
Under JARs the aircraft-specific systems come into the class- or type-rating training, as would your prop overspeed drills. They had obviously been badly-trained, as that should come into training for complex single or multi-engine aircraft in the CPL.
