How much you reckon??
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: UAE
How much you reckon??
Hey folks!
Just a quick question. How much you reckon it would cost to do all your training to fATPL level in the UK? From PPL to MCC. Just been offered a job which kinda blows my 6 months off plan and would be crazy to turn it down.
Cabair's modular price of 30k looks reasonable but 150hrs done in USA.
Any ideas?
kempus
Just a quick question. How much you reckon it would cost to do all your training to fATPL level in the UK? From PPL to MCC. Just been offered a job which kinda blows my 6 months off plan and would be crazy to turn it down.
Cabair's modular price of 30k looks reasonable but 150hrs done in USA.
Any ideas?
kempus
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If you manage the whole process carefully and don't necessarily feel you have to do everything with the same provider my estimates run at:
PPL £5000
Night £600
CPL £5000
IR £9000
Hour Building: £10000
MCC: £1500
Total: £32000 (rounded up)
Error @ 20%: £39000 (rounded up)
PPL £5000
Night £600
CPL £5000
IR £9000
Hour Building: £10000
MCC: £1500
Total: £32000 (rounded up)
Error @ 20%: £39000 (rounded up)
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
Deliberately pessimistic
Based on both my own and other friends experiences:
PPL (in UK) Approx £4,000
Hour building (US/SA) Approx £13,000
ATPL Groundschool Approx £3,000 (inc exam fees)
CPL Approx £ 6500 (inc ME Rating and fees)
Instrument Rating Approx £14,000
MCC course £2,000
Living Costs for 10 months £6-8,000
Total £48,500 - £50,500
All costs are approximate, best to add at least 20% to the total to take into account unforeseen circumstances (crap wx, resits etc etc) £58,200 - £60,600.
Dont fall into the trap of trying to cost things out optomistically. You could find yourself half way through the IR and run out of cash. Miserable old cynic, aren't I?
PPL (in UK) Approx £4,000
Hour building (US/SA) Approx £13,000
ATPL Groundschool Approx £3,000 (inc exam fees)
CPL Approx £ 6500 (inc ME Rating and fees)
Instrument Rating Approx £14,000
MCC course £2,000
Living Costs for 10 months £6-8,000
Total £48,500 - £50,500
All costs are approximate, best to add at least 20% to the total to take into account unforeseen circumstances (crap wx, resits etc etc) £58,200 - £60,600.
Dont fall into the trap of trying to cost things out optomistically. You could find yourself half way through the IR and run out of cash. Miserable old cynic, aren't I?
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: UK
I agree with flypuppy. With exam and test fees plus landing and approach fees on top of the published prices, not forgetting living expenses, I have calculated it will cost me around £40k minimum. It may be as much as £50k if I don't nail everything first time.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 465
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From: UAE
mmmmmmmmmmm! Interesting!
This post really links the other post i put up with the modular training bit. Been offered a job with BA in another area and with my foot in the door, dont want to turn it down. Thats why i was gonna go modular as living expenses are paid while i work, resits saved for and i can have the odd little luxury in my life. Highlight odd and little!!
Any views on that? Got an interview arranged for next week with HSBC. Asked a few captains from work for their views and the best reply i got was:
"Make graphs, lots of graphs! Oh pie charts too then some more graphs! put projections of future income shown on a graph, pass rates on a chart, another graph from a book and label it economic and recruitment cycle! Make it up! just have loads of graphs, charts and pie charts!"
Well that's what he said he did and he's now a capitiano!
kempus
This post really links the other post i put up with the modular training bit. Been offered a job with BA in another area and with my foot in the door, dont want to turn it down. Thats why i was gonna go modular as living expenses are paid while i work, resits saved for and i can have the odd little luxury in my life. Highlight odd and little!!
Any views on that? Got an interview arranged for next week with HSBC. Asked a few captains from work for their views and the best reply i got was:
"Make graphs, lots of graphs! Oh pie charts too then some more graphs! put projections of future income shown on a graph, pass rates on a chart, another graph from a book and label it economic and recruitment cycle! Make it up! just have loads of graphs, charts and pie charts!"
Well that's what he said he did and he's now a capitiano!
kempus
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
That's an expensive IR Flypuppy, and the hour building can be achieved for considerably less in the UK, though your estimate for the PPL is low. I reckon all told you're looking at £37-42,000 plus living expenses given minimums (depends partly on how the groundschool is achieved, as distance learning is about £1800 and full-time about £4000 or more), all achieved in the UK. I would agree with your top end then, though the whole lot is achievable more cheaply.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
Posts: 826
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
The costs I have indicated are based on rough averages of people I know who have been through commercial training in the last 2 years. The costings are realistic and based on "real world" experience. I have included things like the night rating, flight tickets accomodation and beer money into the hour building costs, again realistic costings.
Why dont you try reading my post correctly Send Clowns? I stated quite clearly, even put it in big bold letters, that I was erring on the pessimistic side. If it is achievable more cheaply, fantastic, but from what I have seen and experienced, the prices quoted are about what people should expect to pay.
Why dont you try reading my post correctly Send Clowns? I stated quite clearly, even put it in big bold letters, that I was erring on the pessimistic side. If it is achievable more cheaply, fantastic, but from what I have seen and experienced, the prices quoted are about what people should expect to pay.
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Calm down Flypuppy
I did read your post. I was pointing out that you were quoting for more hour building than really required (which becomes fun flying, all very well but beyond the scope of this query) - it is easy to achieve for less than £10,000 in the UK - and for either an expensive IR or an IR with extra training. You were then adding contingency on top of this. This makes no sense - either you should quote a minimum figure and suggest a contingency or quote a real-world range of figures, which of course includes the natural variation in costs.
I did read your post. I was pointing out that you were quoting for more hour building than really required (which becomes fun flying, all very well but beyond the scope of this query) - it is easy to achieve for less than £10,000 in the UK - and for either an expensive IR or an IR with extra training. You were then adding contingency on top of this. This makes no sense - either you should quote a minimum figure and suggest a contingency or quote a real-world range of figures, which of course includes the natural variation in costs.
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
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From: Bournemouth
Send Clowns,
Shhh - don't tell my boss that. How do you think I manage to spend so much time on PPRuNe? I apply the double-contingency trick to all of my time estimates!
FFF
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This makes no sense - either you should quote a minimum figure and suggest a contingency or quote a real-world range of figures
FFF
-------------
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
Posts: 826
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
Let me try saying this in a way you might understand Send Clowns.
The figures I quote are based on averaging out what myself and 6 other people have spent since the middle of 2001 on flying training.
Some people have spent less, some people have spent more.
The average cost of an IR, based on the people I know who have carried out this training has been approx £14,000 (£10,200ish was the cheapest over £16,000 the most expensive)
These figures are what people should expect to pay.
The final total that you suggest of £37-42,000 plus £6-8,000 for living expenses, (£43,000-50,000) is within spitting distance of what I indicate as a basic cost of £48,500 - £50,500.
As a general rule, virtually all those people I know who have engaged in commercial training have over-run their budget by 15-20%.
The figures I quote are based on averaging out what myself and 6 other people have spent since the middle of 2001 on flying training.
Some people have spent less, some people have spent more.
The average cost of an IR, based on the people I know who have carried out this training has been approx £14,000 (£10,200ish was the cheapest over £16,000 the most expensive)
These figures are what people should expect to pay.
The final total that you suggest of £37-42,000 plus £6-8,000 for living expenses, (£43,000-50,000) is within spitting distance of what I indicate as a basic cost of £48,500 - £50,500.
As a general rule, virtually all those people I know who have engaged in commercial training have over-run their budget by 15-20%.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 16th October 2003 at 00:22.
Joined: May 2001
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pups i can see where sendclowns is coming from.
The establishment you trained with I will admit has one of the best pass rates in the UK. But it also has the reputation charging for shall we say the quality of its instruction.
Its not normal for the average to be that high, infact for that money I got cpl/ir and MEP.
And for the peeps who have guessed which school we are talking about don't name it or the thread will be deleted.
MJ
The establishment you trained with I will admit has one of the best pass rates in the UK. But it also has the reputation charging for shall we say the quality of its instruction.
Its not normal for the average to be that high, infact for that money I got cpl/ir and MEP.
And for the peeps who have guessed which school we are talking about don't name it or the thread will be deleted.
MJ
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Joined: Nov 1997
Posts: 826
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From: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
The averages are based on people who went to a number of different schools, from the south coast of England to the middle of Scotland. It is not just based on one school.
The cheapest advertised IR I can currently find is in the area of 10,500 (inc. VAT but NOT inc. test fees)
No names, no pack drill.
The cheapest advertised IR I can currently find is in the area of 10,500 (inc. VAT but NOT inc. test fees)
No names, no pack drill.
Last edited by Flypuppy; 16th October 2003 at 01:11.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 465
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From: UAE
Hey!
The kinda thing i was looking at was to do training in the one area as job and house would really prevent me from moving around alot.
I have looked thro magazines, trawlled the internet but each time i add up the figures a cost of 45K is bout the norm. That includes all the test fees and vat but only a 10% safety net.
Got the bank manager on Monday so think thats the kinda sum i will be putting forward for!
kempus
The kinda thing i was looking at was to do training in the one area as job and house would really prevent me from moving around alot.
I have looked thro magazines, trawlled the internet but each time i add up the figures a cost of 45K is bout the norm. That includes all the test fees and vat but only a 10% safety net.
Got the bank manager on Monday so think thats the kinda sum i will be putting forward for!
kempus
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Posts: n/a
www.blackbusheaviation.com advertise a commercial IR at £8700!
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
Erm, exactly, Flypuppy, they are the range that you and friends have actually spent. They accord pretty much with the amounts people I know spent. If you use actual spends, and cover a range of circumstances (not including the money people lost when companies went bust) there is no need to add in a contingency figure, which is usually used for the difference between ideal and reality. You are basing your figures on reality, not idealised sums, so no contingency is required, except to note that unusual circumstances can increase this.
I managed to live on £4,500 + luxuries for a year while I was on the course, so my minimum figure would be around $41,500 (though I would admit that would be tight and boring!). £3-4,000 can make the difference in peoples decisions in these things, let alone £7,000!
It is entirely possible to finish a CPL and an IR in minimum hours and many do, so although a range must be considered the low end is not unrealistic!
HWD
How much of that is sim time? It is entirely possible to do 43 hours of sim in an IR now, at £150-200 per hour replacing flight time at £200-350 per hour. However most schools prefer to teach with more time in the aircraft, so although they may be able to match the quote they quote for perhaps 25/25 sim/aircraft.
Kempus
That sounds about right. Although staying in one place will save you money it is worth being prepared to move for part of the course. You find out a lot more about places once you are in the system, and may decide the school is not right for the next module.
I managed to live on £4,500 + luxuries for a year while I was on the course, so my minimum figure would be around $41,500 (though I would admit that would be tight and boring!). £3-4,000 can make the difference in peoples decisions in these things, let alone £7,000!
It is entirely possible to finish a CPL and an IR in minimum hours and many do, so although a range must be considered the low end is not unrealistic!
HWD
How much of that is sim time? It is entirely possible to do 43 hours of sim in an IR now, at £150-200 per hour replacing flight time at £200-350 per hour. However most schools prefer to teach with more time in the aircraft, so although they may be able to match the quote they quote for perhaps 25/25 sim/aircraft.
Kempus
That sounds about right. Although staying in one place will save you money it is worth being prepared to move for part of the course. You find out a lot more about places once you are in the system, and may decide the school is not right for the next module.
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Send Clowns,
They quote 20/15/15 for Sim/Archer/Seneca respectively. It says so in the destination of the like wot I posted.
They describe the sim as a Frasca, which ,looking at the Frasca site, means it could be anything from just a generic twin with no visuals to a massive hydraulic War of the Worlds type thing! Prolly the former.
They quote 20/15/15 for Sim/Archer/Seneca respectively. It says so in the destination of the like wot I posted.
They describe the sim as a Frasca, which ,looking at the Frasca site, means it could be anything from just a generic twin with no visuals to a massive hydraulic War of the Worlds type thing! Prolly the former.