Bae Flight Training for sale.
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Joined: Dec 1997
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From: Suffolk UK
weette despite your theories of conspiratorial mods controlling the flow of information, whether for commercial or professional advantage or whatever, I'm afraid you're wrong! If we remove a thread, it is placed in a secure area of the site so that whatever is offensive, actionable or questionable about the thread can be studied by the senior mods and, if necessary, produced as evidence at an appropriate time and in an appropriate place. There is no such thread about BAe (or any other fto) currently residing in our secure area, so I can only assume that the originator of the thread deleted it of his own accord and for his own reasons.
As for the sale of Jerez, I'm afraid that BAe's only motivation will be to get the best price it can as quickly as it can. While it will be keen to make sure that its own reputation isn't sullied by any shoddy dealings during the sale, and it will do a reasonable amount to ensure that the buyer is a company of good standing, which will look after the interests of those students who have contracted with BAe, I doubt that its concern for the students who come thereafter will amount to much. This is purely a commercial imperative, not a charity decision. Let us hope that the buyer is as keen to get the best out of the place as you guys are.
Scroggs
As for the sale of Jerez, I'm afraid that BAe's only motivation will be to get the best price it can as quickly as it can. While it will be keen to make sure that its own reputation isn't sullied by any shoddy dealings during the sale, and it will do a reasonable amount to ensure that the buyer is a company of good standing, which will look after the interests of those students who have contracted with BAe, I doubt that its concern for the students who come thereafter will amount to much. This is purely a commercial imperative, not a charity decision. Let us hope that the buyer is as keen to get the best out of the place as you guys are.
Scroggs
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Worldwide
I heard that Warren Buffett of Berkshire Hathaway (Netjets and Flightsafety) have heard of the above news. Well, I think it'd be a good move for them-watch the stock price on the Berkshire Hathaway company.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Dark Side of the Mon
Scroggs, good points!
WWW, also good questions!
What would happen if BAE fails to sell? Having done some research, it seems fairly likely that it will close. But what will this do for the poor students who are still there waiting to complete their course? What will happen to the dwindering motivation of BAE staff and instructors faced with imminent job loss? Certainly IT WILL NOT do anything positive towards quality of training.
Also what about the students that complete their training with BAE? BAE partly sells the course on graduates being in employment within 6 months with the help of BAE management, and their airline contacts. Are these students going to be left to fend for themselves in the current market. After all I agree with WWW in another of his recent posts, whereby he explains that airlines prefer graduates from the approved course to the modular course, simply because it is easy for airlines to get in touch with the approved school for a training reference.But what happens when their is no-one at BAE to answer the phones?
Other interesting RUMOURS are that the CAA is becoming more reluctant to renew FTO approval to a non UK residing FTOs. After all under JAR, BAE should really operate under their Spanish DGAC approval (which they currently have). However, the Spanish approval is not used soley because BAE have no Spanish DGAC approved examiners on site. Therefore BAE continue to use expensive CAA examiners from the UK.
With regard to the sale of BAE, personally I have doubts. BAE is a global company, and if they cannot make a profit in over 6 years in delivering flight training, nor financially afford to keep the Civil Flight Training schools, then who can? Particularly in Jerez, where I am told a vast number of flying days are lost to excessively high temperatures in the summer, the levante SE crosswind, ATC restrictions and generally poor management.
Anyone out there know any interested parties in purchasing BAE?
In the mean time, you can still join the BAE Systems Rowing Team. Vacancies for 6 (management) blokes steering, and 1 (instructor) bloke rowing..............Yes it does go around in circles all day!
WWW, also good questions!
What would happen if BAE fails to sell? Having done some research, it seems fairly likely that it will close. But what will this do for the poor students who are still there waiting to complete their course? What will happen to the dwindering motivation of BAE staff and instructors faced with imminent job loss? Certainly IT WILL NOT do anything positive towards quality of training.
Also what about the students that complete their training with BAE? BAE partly sells the course on graduates being in employment within 6 months with the help of BAE management, and their airline contacts. Are these students going to be left to fend for themselves in the current market. After all I agree with WWW in another of his recent posts, whereby he explains that airlines prefer graduates from the approved course to the modular course, simply because it is easy for airlines to get in touch with the approved school for a training reference.But what happens when their is no-one at BAE to answer the phones?
Other interesting RUMOURS are that the CAA is becoming more reluctant to renew FTO approval to a non UK residing FTOs. After all under JAR, BAE should really operate under their Spanish DGAC approval (which they currently have). However, the Spanish approval is not used soley because BAE have no Spanish DGAC approved examiners on site. Therefore BAE continue to use expensive CAA examiners from the UK.
With regard to the sale of BAE, personally I have doubts. BAE is a global company, and if they cannot make a profit in over 6 years in delivering flight training, nor financially afford to keep the Civil Flight Training schools, then who can? Particularly in Jerez, where I am told a vast number of flying days are lost to excessively high temperatures in the summer, the levante SE crosswind, ATC restrictions and generally poor management.
Anyone out there know any interested parties in purchasing BAE?
In the mean time, you can still join the BAE Systems Rowing Team. Vacancies for 6 (management) blokes steering, and 1 (instructor) bloke rowing..............Yes it does go around in circles all day!
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
But what will this do for the poor students who are still there waiting to complete their course? What will happen to the dwindering motivation of BAE staff and instructors faced with imminent job loss?
Assuming they continue I would hope that the instructor morale would not be a problem. My closest experience was the closure of SFT, much more precipitous and less orderly than Jerez would be, with the employees losing a lot more. There the priority of the instructors was certainly on the students, and helping as much as possible. Arrangements were made to keep the school open for three weeks with unpaid instructors to complete as many subject courses as possible (I was not directly involved, as my subject was too large to complete and so dropped). It is to be hoped that the focus of all instructors is as close to the requirements of the students as that of my colleagues was.
Moderator
Joined: Dec 1997
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From: Suffolk UK
I imagine that Jerez is an independent cost centre within the BAe group, and thus will be required by the accountants to stand or fall on its own merits. There is little or no cross fertilization, as there might be if an airline owned the school, that could justify it running at a trading loss. I would not be surprised if the place has run at a loss over the last two years, and that the accountants' limited patience may have run out.
If BAe should decide to close down Jerez, I am sure that they would do it in an orderly fashion and wouldn't leave everyone high and dry. There would, in spite of that, be those who lose out. For example, should a student fail a check within a short time of any pre-announced final closure, you would not expect BAe to keep the place open to support that one student while the student receives remedial instruction and subsequent testing. I would hope that it may be possible for that student to be placed elsewhere - but it may not be.
Obviously, and finally, this is all speculation. We all got very upset when such speculation appeared about other schools a little while back, so let's not get too excited about this. I believe that the whole aviation market is on the upturn, and that the future is likely to be somewhat brighter. Hopefully Jerez will stay in business and go from strength to strength.
Scroggs
If BAe should decide to close down Jerez, I am sure that they would do it in an orderly fashion and wouldn't leave everyone high and dry. There would, in spite of that, be those who lose out. For example, should a student fail a check within a short time of any pre-announced final closure, you would not expect BAe to keep the place open to support that one student while the student receives remedial instruction and subsequent testing. I would hope that it may be possible for that student to be placed elsewhere - but it may not be.
Obviously, and finally, this is all speculation. We all got very upset when such speculation appeared about other schools a little while back, so let's not get too excited about this. I believe that the whole aviation market is on the upturn, and that the future is likely to be somewhat brighter. Hopefully Jerez will stay in business and go from strength to strength.
Scroggs
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,500
Likes: 1,845
From: England
It is a little premature to speculate about how Jerez would close down! However, be assured that it would be an orderly process. Knowing the organisation as I do I think it highly unlikely that any customer would end up with a raw deal. In fact you might end up with a quite a good deal - just like the first students at Jerez who had 3 aircraft each etc.
I believe that in the past the school did enjoy a somewhat ringfenced existence in the the BAe empire. I have been told that the school only ever made money one year out of four. It was deemed as useful to have an ab initio school by sales staff flogging lucrative civil and military contracts in places like the middle east. Prestwick was certainly home to a significant number of middle eastern students who had a leisurely approach to training and life itself...
Anyway, all speculation and navel gazing.
The real problem I think is that the argument for JAA modular is stronger than that for JAA integrated.
To be honest I think that is was always the intention of those in the shadowy corridors of power. Integrated would mostly be airline cadets and Modular would be mostly self sponsored. You can see it in the small syllabus differences - Integrated students only complete a couple of dozen SOLO hours. Its all geared to multi pilot ops. There was a belief in the latter 90's that in the future most airlines would select and sponsor most of their FO's. The likes of the Airbus and NG Boeings meant that the old routes of Senecca flying then turboprop then jet was not felt to provide the optimum preparation for the jet.
Hence the rise of MCC and JOC courses - the FNPT2 standard was introduced and suddenly there were quite good sims popping up all round the country.
Airlines were going to want to have new entrants complete somewhat customised ab initio courses with MCC using airline SOPS and a full type related JOC course integrated smoothly between basic and line training. This would be a brave new world where basic handling skills were held to a minimum standard (e.g. no solo twin time required) and the softer skills were emphasised (e.g. lots of sim exercises focusing on decision making and lateral thinking).
It all sounds very nice apart from it being balerics.
Airlines suddenly dropped all sponsorship as they focussed on not going bust. Those self sponsored students that were undeterred did the sums and worked out that Modular was the way to go. Hence you find the smaller FTO's around the country are packed out and making good money. Indeed smaller new commercial FTO's are being founded within 5 miles of where I type now.
The worm will turn though.
After ever slump there comes a point whereby things pick up. For a very short sweet time everyone starts hiring - seemingly at the same time. It happend as I recall in 1993/4. After a few years of misery post 1990 GWone suddenly lots of flying instructors I knew were packing their bags and off to the airlines or freight haulers. The industry is bigger now and more fluid with people less likely to work for one airline their whole career. Possibly this will make the upswing more vicious this time.
The critical bit is to be in the right place at the right time with the right bits of paper.
There will be people whose IR of Class One has lapsed just at the wrong time. Whose CVs' 6 month stay in the pile has just elapsed the week before the Chief Pilot asks to see it... etc.
Good luck,
WWW
I believe that in the past the school did enjoy a somewhat ringfenced existence in the the BAe empire. I have been told that the school only ever made money one year out of four. It was deemed as useful to have an ab initio school by sales staff flogging lucrative civil and military contracts in places like the middle east. Prestwick was certainly home to a significant number of middle eastern students who had a leisurely approach to training and life itself...
Anyway, all speculation and navel gazing.
The real problem I think is that the argument for JAA modular is stronger than that for JAA integrated.
To be honest I think that is was always the intention of those in the shadowy corridors of power. Integrated would mostly be airline cadets and Modular would be mostly self sponsored. You can see it in the small syllabus differences - Integrated students only complete a couple of dozen SOLO hours. Its all geared to multi pilot ops. There was a belief in the latter 90's that in the future most airlines would select and sponsor most of their FO's. The likes of the Airbus and NG Boeings meant that the old routes of Senecca flying then turboprop then jet was not felt to provide the optimum preparation for the jet.
Hence the rise of MCC and JOC courses - the FNPT2 standard was introduced and suddenly there were quite good sims popping up all round the country.
Airlines were going to want to have new entrants complete somewhat customised ab initio courses with MCC using airline SOPS and a full type related JOC course integrated smoothly between basic and line training. This would be a brave new world where basic handling skills were held to a minimum standard (e.g. no solo twin time required) and the softer skills were emphasised (e.g. lots of sim exercises focusing on decision making and lateral thinking).
It all sounds very nice apart from it being balerics.
Airlines suddenly dropped all sponsorship as they focussed on not going bust. Those self sponsored students that were undeterred did the sums and worked out that Modular was the way to go. Hence you find the smaller FTO's around the country are packed out and making good money. Indeed smaller new commercial FTO's are being founded within 5 miles of where I type now.
The worm will turn though.
After ever slump there comes a point whereby things pick up. For a very short sweet time everyone starts hiring - seemingly at the same time. It happend as I recall in 1993/4. After a few years of misery post 1990 GWone suddenly lots of flying instructors I knew were packing their bags and off to the airlines or freight haulers. The industry is bigger now and more fluid with people less likely to work for one airline their whole career. Possibly this will make the upswing more vicious this time.
The critical bit is to be in the right place at the right time with the right bits of paper.
There will be people whose IR of Class One has lapsed just at the wrong time. Whose CVs' 6 month stay in the pile has just elapsed the week before the Chief Pilot asks to see it... etc.
Good luck,
WWW
