AIRMED - why 24 months integrated?
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AIRMED - why 24 months integrated?
Does anyone have any idea why the integrated course at AIRMED in Valencia is 24 months long!! I would like to study there but when most other integrated courses are doing it in about half the time, time I could be using to get a FI rating etc. it makes me curious as to why?
Anyone had first-hand experience of this course?
Anyone had first-hand experience of this course?
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Hulk is right - 12 months for a JAA integrated course seems awfully short; 24 months more like it - but I managed ab initio JAA modular in 20 months... Remember, continental FTOs look at 10-12 months for the ATPL ground school, whereas British ones do it in 6 months (but 9 months is more realistic), so they work you harder West of the Channel.
I suppose 24 months give you plenty of slack for any ATPL resits etc. For a Spanish FTO, I find AIRMED's prices quite high at €60,000 or so.
Cheers
I suppose 24 months give you plenty of slack for any ATPL resits etc. For a Spanish FTO, I find AIRMED's prices quite high at €60,000 or so.
Cheers
Well, perhaps 12 months is a little optimistic but Cabair take 56 weeks, BAe quote 60 weeks and even Oxford's ridiculously overblown APP only takes 65 weeks.
It should be possible to complete a modular CPL/IR with ATP exams in 24 months, if it takes AIRMED that long to complete an integrated course then it seems all the stories about their inefficiency might be well-founded after all.
An extra 9-11 months accommodation will take a large bite out of the budget and, even at Spanish prices, will go some way to paying for the FI rating.
It should be possible to complete a modular CPL/IR with ATP exams in 24 months, if it takes AIRMED that long to complete an integrated course then it seems all the stories about their inefficiency might be well-founded after all.
An extra 9-11 months accommodation will take a large bite out of the budget and, even at Spanish prices, will go some way to paying for the FI rating.
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12 months is a perfectly reasonable aim for a course. Many will find it takes a little longer, but many others could complete in that time.
Mine took almost 15 months, but I was flying the CPL over the worst part of the winter which added about a month and was ill and unable to fly for 6 weeks (also requiring some extra training due to lack of continuity). I also did not push the flying being in no great hurry and wanting first-time passes, so only flew once a day to allow plenty of ground study.
This was a modular course with more time taken in groundschool than strictly required.
Mine took almost 15 months, but I was flying the CPL over the worst part of the winter which added about a month and was ill and unable to fly for 6 weeks (also requiring some extra training due to lack of continuity). I also did not push the flying being in no great hurry and wanting first-time passes, so only flew once a day to allow plenty of ground study.
This was a modular course with more time taken in groundschool than strictly required.
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A half competent provider could easily manage to get a student of even modest ability through an integrated course in 14-15 months, and that still allows a flying schedule that isn't going to bust your b@lls and plenty of revision time for groundschool. 24 months is a p1ss take to be frank.
Are you having to pay accomodation by the week separate to the cost of the course? That could well be the answer.
Are you having to pay accomodation by the week separate to the cost of the course? That could well be the answer.
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The e-mail I received from AIRMED this morning quotes 24 months, although their website which I have checked this afternoon quotes 21 months, which I still consider a little excessive for a full-time 'fly/study your ass off 5 days a week +' integrated course.
Here is what you get:
Basic Aircraft Phase 120:00 hours
Complex Aircraft Phase 30:00 hours
Multi Engine Phase. 30:00 hours
Basic Simulator Phase FNTP I 50:00 hours
Advance Simulator Phase FNTP II / MCC 40:00 hours
Price is 62360e which works out at approx. £43300
The website then quotes "housing is also included at an additional cost of 5040e" (£3500)
Perhaps they mean housing is 'excluded' and comes at an additional cost of 5040e. It is open to interpretation I think....
Even if you have to add on the accomodation it comes to £46800 which isn't bad for 21 months training and 270 hours, but surely you could trim it down a bit?
Here is what you get:
Basic Aircraft Phase 120:00 hours
Complex Aircraft Phase 30:00 hours
Multi Engine Phase. 30:00 hours
Basic Simulator Phase FNTP I 50:00 hours
Advance Simulator Phase FNTP II / MCC 40:00 hours
Price is 62360e which works out at approx. £43300
The website then quotes "housing is also included at an additional cost of 5040e" (£3500)
Perhaps they mean housing is 'excluded' and comes at an additional cost of 5040e. It is open to interpretation I think....
Even if you have to add on the accomodation it comes to £46800 which isn't bad for 21 months training and 270 hours, but surely you could trim it down a bit?
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moo - if you are willing to go for the "Spanish connection", have you checked out AEROFAN at Madrid/Cuatro Vientos? Their integrated ATPL course also takes 24 months, but SEEMS quite cheaper at €49,000 or so - just under £35,000 (but, again, dunno if that includes 24 months' accommodation).
Their MCC courses, though, seem seriously overpriced when compared to Britain.
Cheers
Their MCC courses, though, seem seriously overpriced when compared to Britain.
Cheers
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Thanks Fouga, hadn't looked at them. 
If these FTO's in Spain wish to be taken more seriously and wish to raise their profile, shouldn't they take more time with their websites/prospectus material? After reading Aeromadrid's first webpage and coming across this about their newsletter:
"Subscribe and we'll informs you about everything what occurs to our company"
I have decided not to invest £45000 there.
If these FTO's in Spain wish to be taken more seriously and wish to raise their profile, shouldn't they take more time with their websites/prospectus material? After reading Aeromadrid's first webpage and coming across this about their newsletter:
"Subscribe and we'll informs you about everything what occurs to our company"
I have decided not to invest £45000 there.
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moo - despite their continuous ads in Flight International/Pilot etc., Aeromadrid are (in)famous for their lack of command of the English language; apparently they only recently started English-language integrated courses... looks like there is still some way to go before they are taken seriously north of the Pyrenees!
Cheers
P.S.: AEROFAN's website is on www.aerofanfto.com
Cheers
P.S.: AEROFAN's website is on www.aerofanfto.com
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If a course is going to cost over £40,000, for which you could achieve the same licence in the UK in 12-18 months they have to get times down to be serious contenders. 6-12 months extra earning time can come in very helpful.
Also watch the corruption in Spain. It may seem great if exam papers are available a week in advance, but eventually it is going to affect employers' opinions of the courses out there.
Also watch the corruption in Spain. It may seem great if exam papers are available a week in advance, but eventually it is going to affect employers' opinions of the courses out there.
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Moo,
I just saw what Aeromadrid quoted you as the training you would get, and it bears practically no resemblance to what JAR-FCL requires. For an integrated course leading to the award of a frozen ATPL, you will need the following:
195 hours of total training. Of this 195 hours you will need:
15 hours MCC
40 hours in an FNPT 2 (If an FNPT 1 is used then only 25 hours will count!!!). The other 15 hours will have to be in an aeroplane.
Of the remaining 140 hours around 120 on a single engine type is reasonable (leading to the qualification for a Single Engine Piston (Land) on your licence), and the remainder on a twin, bearing in mind that at a reputable school the FNPT 2 will accurately represent the twin that the school uses.
Please also note that the training is towards the appropriate tests (usually the CPL Skill Test and the IR Skill Test), for which you can budget another two hours each. Also the twin engine conversion (6 hours) does not count towards the training for the tests.
So to sum up you should expect approximately the following training:
120 hours single engine.
30 hours twin engine (including 6 hours conversion and 2x2 hours for tests).
40 hours FNPT 2.
15 hours MCC.
The 270 hours you have been quoted sounds like a rip-off or a quote from an organisation that has not read or understood JAR-FCL.
I just saw what Aeromadrid quoted you as the training you would get, and it bears practically no resemblance to what JAR-FCL requires. For an integrated course leading to the award of a frozen ATPL, you will need the following:
195 hours of total training. Of this 195 hours you will need:
15 hours MCC
40 hours in an FNPT 2 (If an FNPT 1 is used then only 25 hours will count!!!). The other 15 hours will have to be in an aeroplane.
Of the remaining 140 hours around 120 on a single engine type is reasonable (leading to the qualification for a Single Engine Piston (Land) on your licence), and the remainder on a twin, bearing in mind that at a reputable school the FNPT 2 will accurately represent the twin that the school uses.
Please also note that the training is towards the appropriate tests (usually the CPL Skill Test and the IR Skill Test), for which you can budget another two hours each. Also the twin engine conversion (6 hours) does not count towards the training for the tests.
So to sum up you should expect approximately the following training:
120 hours single engine.
30 hours twin engine (including 6 hours conversion and 2x2 hours for tests).
40 hours FNPT 2.
15 hours MCC.
The 270 hours you have been quoted sounds like a rip-off or a quote from an organisation that has not read or understood JAR-FCL.
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machone, had spotted that I must admit, although still unsure of the reason for the 'extra' training.
surely most schools would want to give you nothing but minimum hours if they didn't need to.....so why are AIRMED offering them....
http://www.airmed.es/webusr/planoeng...l/default.html
the URL only lets you get to the front page, but the details of the hour structure are under the 'prices' link
surely most schools would want to give you nothing but minimum hours if they didn't need to.....so why are AIRMED offering them....
http://www.airmed.es/webusr/planoeng...l/default.htmlthe URL only lets you get to the front page, but the details of the hour structure are under the 'prices' link
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The minimum hours for an ATPL (integrated) are I believe 160, though most round up the phases to 170 total. This does not include the MCC (which is not part of the fATPL but a requirement for the issue of a multi-crew type rating). 270 sounds more like a modular course (though this may be as little as 230)
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Don't go in Airmed cause you are not going to finish in 2 years never ever . Almost 90% of the student finish the course in 2 year an half or more. Now they have changed and they do a course in 14 months
But be careful again cause the total flight hours was reduced from 180 Hrs to 140 Hrs. And the theory is reduced and compacted and believe me was already hard to do in 1 year and half and to do just in 10 months is totally crazy....
They have fired a lots of flight instructors and they are close to bankrupcy. So it's crazy to go there and not be sure to end the course
But be careful again cause the total flight hours was reduced from 180 Hrs to 140 Hrs. And the theory is reduced and compacted and believe me was already hard to do in 1 year and half and to do just in 10 months is totally crazy.... They have fired a lots of flight instructors and they are close to bankrupcy. So it's crazy to go there and not be sure to end the course
