Crossing the Channel
 

Hi,

I'm contemplating crossing the English Channel to the north coast of France for the first time within the next few weeks in my hired PA28. It'll be a solo VFR flight, from Norwich to Calais via Dover (DVR VOR) and then back again at FL60 - I won't be landing in France. I just want to have a look around and to be able to say that I've flown to France. I've got a PPL, and have flown 90 hours (25 solo), most of which has been in America - so I'm a little unsure about what might be involved in a flight like this.

If someone could answer a few questions I have I would be very grateful!

1) Since I'm not landing in France, am I right to assume that I needn't worry about Customs?

2) Do I NEED to file a flight plan? If so, how would I go about doing that (I've never done one before)?

3) Do I NEED to be in contact with an ATSU (e.g. 124.6) while crossing the channel (I know it's probably recommended)?

4) As I understand it, I won't need clearance to enter the class E airspace around Calais - is this correct?

5) Are there any other issues involved that you think I should be aware of?


Thank you,

Samir.

1. You will be leaving UK airspace and entering French, so I think it would be wise to land at a Customs airport both ends. Otherwise, you might be "met" and asked a lot of questions. After all, why go all the way to France, and then not land there?

2. YES. Mandatory when crossing an international border. There are many guides to filling in FPLs - if you go to an airport with a briefing unit (such as Southend), they can help you.

3. Yes.

4. No. Arriving from abroad. If you don't talk to Lille Approach, they might send someone to check you out.

5. Yes. If you fly that route at FL60, you will be in Class A airspace for quite a bit of the trip, for which you require an Instrument Rating, ATC clearance, and a suitably equipped aircraft. I don't think you can route Norwich - DVR- ING in that airspace: there are preferred routes.

In France, VFR flights must be at intermediate 500 foot increments - refer the French AIP.

I'd suggest find an instructor or someone who's done it before, and fly with them, land at Calais (24 hours notice required for Customs) or at Le Touquet, and enjoy the différence. Have lunch there, even.

You will be surprised at how murky even a CAVOK day may seem when crossing the channel. Knowing how to use the instruments to keep on track and right way up might prove useful.

This isn't meant to be dig at samirlsn...

..but as someone who trained in the US it never ceases to amaze me how the so called superior UK/CAA/JAA trained and tested pilots are not aware of basic requirements for flight planning and PIC responsiblities.,

Sorry if this is off thread... but I can't believe a licence was issued to someone who, (probably not due to their fault), doesn't know when a flight plan is required or how to file it.

Samir says that most of his hours have been flown in the US, so maybe he trained there, but, wherever he trained, I don't think that you can generalise about UK vs US training standards by reference to the hapless numptoidness of the questions posed above, and the poor level of pilot training and pilot SELF-briefing which they suggest. It is, to say the least, disappointing, that someone with a PPL and coming up to a 100 hrs TT should really need to enquire here about these things.

Samir, may I ask if you just went through your PPL course ticking off the exercises one by one? Did you not read around the subject, chat to your instructor and to other GA pilots about this, that, and the other, and take steps to inform yourself about being a pilot in command. Perhaps you are just teasing us?

Re your question (5): have you seen the "blue-blue" effect flying over water on a sunny day? If you have done any training at Norwich, perhaps you have. Why not challenge yourself just a tiny a bit and try to find Dover with the VOR switched off?

As for flight plans, there are reasons why, quite apart from mere bureaucracy or anti-terrorism blah, filing such a document might be useful. Hint: got a life jacket?

Crossing the Oggin'
 

Hi Sam'

Don't do it on your own.

Get somebody to sit with you and go through the flight planning - all simple stuff. THey don't need to be an instructor - an experienced/ competent PPL will be fine.

Plan a lunch at Le Touquet.

THe next time you go Foreign - think how impressed your pax will be when you fill out that complicated looking form - that isn't really but shhhh! - and wheel them through the terminal and into the restaurant as if you've done it 1000 times.

You are a low-timer. For safety reasons - I also point out the viz over La Manche. Even on a good day you may find that there is no distinctive horizon. Your straight and level flight may well require more than a glancing reference to your panel.

Southampton - Cherbourg is a cracking 'next step' too.

I know of many experienced PPL's who have never been 'foreign'.

All I can say is - it is no black art. Choose your day(s) carefully and never take a passenger who has to get back by any certain time. You'll stay alive that way.

HP

Samirlsn
Firstly, as I see that this is your first post, Welcome to Pprune :)

I would ignore those who made comments on the lines of "you should have known that". You made the correct decision for any pilot, which is if you are uncertain about something, ask. And this forum is a great place to ask, as there are usually lots of helpful replies.

I frequently fly to France, & I would strongly advice you to follow the advice from Keef above.

In particular, do take an instructor or an experienced PPL, who is familiar with cross channel trips, with you for the first flight. If you are hiring from a school or club, then it may be a rule that hirers have to be accompanied on the first cross-channel flight, anyhow.

In a S/E engine aircraft I always go the shortest route across the channel, which is Dover to Cap Gris Nez.

One point to bear in mind, that was mentioned by the previous posters, is the visability. Last Saturday, I flew a T/E aircraft from Le Touquet direct to Lydd. Just after leaving the French coast the view ahead & all around was a bowl of seamless grey haze, with absolutely no line between the sea & sky. This is fairly common over the channel, so it is helpful to be current on instrument flying, as I assume that you have not yet got an IMC rating. ie at least comfortable in flying for 20 miles or so, with no horizon or landmarks, while tracking a VOR.

BUT, don't let us put you off, regular trips to France, is one of the joys of holding a PPL. :)

Hi - and welcome!

In addition to the points mentioned above,

• Wear your lift jacket from take-off to landing.
• Take a life-raft. If the worst were to happen, you wouldn't last many minutes in the channel at this time of year.
• French ATC aren't always very talkative.... I think Calais are better than most, but it's not uncommon not to get an answer in many places. Check the hours of service of anyone you're likely to talk to. With the 35 hr working week in France, an increasing number of ATC services now operate a reduced service, especially at weekends.
• Land and have lunch! Don't be surprised if you see French pilots sharing a bottle of wine, and (personal recommendation...) don't imitate them!
• File your flight plan for the return leg in plenty of time.
• Remember to close your flight plans after landing!
• Enjoy it!

Must admit, if I was the chap I would have probably been put off going by now with some of the comments above.

Samir, I crossed for the first time a couple of years ago and I'm happy for you to send a private message so we can chat about it.

If you're going that far then make sure you land and take it all in. It would be a shame to get there and back without stopping and I'm sure the club will hire the plane at a reduced rate whilst on the ground.

Thank you all for your input.

I've been successfully put off (for now)! I'm glad I asked though - now I know how complicated it can be I think I'll wait until I have more experience and confidence. I'll probably just go to Dover and back now. I think I was getting ahead of myself.

Samir.

Sam,

You make it out there! Just ignore all the negative comments, this is not rocket science, you have plenty of experience. The best advice which was given several times is to take somebody along with you the first time who knows what they is doing.

See one, do one, teach one :)

Somebody on this board must be willing to take him.

Sam - you asked and you got answers! It's not difficult, and I've sat alongside quite a few people doing their first cross-channel in my time.

Go for it! If you're going to fly to Lydd, you might as well go the next little bit, do the foreign thing, and get the duty drawback too.

I'd be happy to fly with you, either sharing the flying or just sitting there looking stupid. Stop in at Southend for Customs and Flight planning, and I'll meet you there. I can't offer you a go in our group aircraft as it's "complex" and the insurance is strict about that.

Good for you keef .

Don't be! Either take up Keef's offer, or find someone else, or plan it very carefully and don't find someone else!

I first crossed the channel when I had about your hours, and shared the flying with a similarly inexperienced friend. Except for a bit of channel haze, it was a piece of cake. Hardest part of the journey was getting around London on the way home.

(Actually, the hardest part was turning down the bottle of wine at lunch, but circumnavigating London ran that a close 2nd;) )

I found crossing the Channel the first time the greatest concern was I did not know what to expect. I simple description would have been helpful – so here it is.

I guess it will take you an hour from Norwich to Lydd. Land at Lydd and don’t bother with a plan for this leg. The people at Lydd are very helpful. Have a chat with them. They will give you a good idea (from other pilots) what visibility is like over the channel. If you are lucky, and have chosen a good day you will be able to see France from Lydd once you are airborne. If visibility is poor, and you are reluctant to go, so what, you have had a good day out already. Alternatively, there is at least one flight school at Lydd. I am sure an instructor would accompany you for the next leg and back.

Flight plan

You will need to file a flight plan from Lydd to L2K and back. Ask a chum to run through the flight plan form with you before you go. Have the plan pre-prepared and take it with you. Also have the plan from L2K back to Lydd. All you then need to do is enter the times on the day. Both Lydd and L2K have a fax for sending plans. You ideally need to send the plan an hour before you leave Lydd, which is perfect for your coffee stop at Lydd. Check, they may accept less on the day if you wish. The plan will be simple, Lydd, FIR boundary, L2K. Don’t forget to remind your chum who helped you prepare the plan that you are expected to give your estimate for the FIR boundary, and make one of your alternates Lydd.

From Lydd

The stop at Lydd will give you a chance to put on your life jacket and have your raft ready if you take one. You can also refuel if you wish. Check you have your passport – they do sometimes check at L2K. They take credit cards if you need fuel in L2K.

All you now need to do is depart Lydd – they will know you are on a flight plan for L2K. Climb in the Lydd overhead (having told them your intention) to whatever height you like below the class A of FL55. The only advantage of climbing high is that in the unlikely event of an engine failure at FL55 you have maybe only ten minutes mid channel outside glide distance of the coast, but the weather will ultimately dictate the height you select. If you now feel uncomfortable with the weather, tell Lydd you are returning and they will cancel your plan on arrival. Do the same, if at any time you are unhappy with the visibility. As others have said, do not be surprised to find even on a good day, the horizon disappears and you have no visual clues. If this happens and you are unhappy, do a 180; as long as you haven’t plodded on, the coast behind will be visible and will give you back the visual clues.

You can stay with Lydd radio or, after you leave the coast, switch to London info. The advantage of being with London info is that most of the traffic will be working this frequency. They will have your plan, so just be ready to tell them you are on a flight plan to L2K and you estimate for the FIR. If you hear others saying they are “coasting out” this simply means they are crossing the coast – a term I found new my first time.

At the FIR change to Lille who will allocate you a squawk. It is a good idea to cross the French coast at Boulogne. The harbour stands out well, is easy to spot and there is a VOR to the south. Now follow the coast to L2K. Lille will tell you to change to L2K. Listen to the L2K ATIS – don’t worry if you don’t speak French – it is in French and English, and both the controllers at Lille and L2K speak good English.

As you approach L2K you will see the river first. The main runway runs parallel to the river. If the main is in use expect to be told to join downwind so be ready. L2K sometimes prefer to use the main when the wind favours the alternate. Do not be worried about requesting the alternate.

Simple really, so don’t be put off. The flight plan is not rocket science and you have pre-prepared both legs anyway – if you can fax a sheet of paper you are OK, departing Lydd and landing at L2K is just like any other short leg with an arrival and departure, so the only complication is losing the horizon over the channel. As others have said, if you are unhappy with a short time on instruments don’t go on, do a 180 and back to Lydd – as I said you have had a good day out anyway.

Finally, I know this is not exactly what you had in mind from your first post, but you may find it is an easier route and destination for your first time and reduces the whole experience to a single short leg.

Samirlsn, don't be put off, listen to the excellent advice from Fuji Abound and you'll be fine. I have asked the moderator if I can send you an email and am happy to give you my number if you want to discuss anything. Believe me when I say one thing................when you do the trip you'll get back home and wonder what all the fuss is about.

Ignore the "head up a***e" comments from people like pilotwolf, you have worked for your licence and you need to use it before you get scared of the whole thing you have been working towards. Even people like him would have wondered how to do it at some point. When I learned to fly I was also not taught the Flight Plan procedure (albeit 14 years ago) and I had to ask somebody for some advice.

Private Message me if you want and I'm happy to talk you through it.

Monocock

P.S. The "losing your horizon" thing has been mentioned several times now. It can be a hazard but try and wait for a forecast that has a high overcast and it shouldn't be a problem. The wx mid-channel is normally the complete opposite of coastal/inland conditions especially when crossing the longer distances from Seaford and Southampton.

I think the people who criticised a 100 hour PPL for being sensible enough to ask some very relevant questions should be....couple of deep breaths now Whirly... OK, should think before posting, and try to put themselves in his position. You don't know things if you haven't needed to do them. I didn't know how to file a flight plan till I went to Ireland and had to do it. Sure, we sort of covered it in the PPL syllabus, but I forgot it again. I suspect the critics are South-East England flyers, to whom flight plans and channel crossings are second nature. I learned to fly in Wales; I absorbed mountain flying early on, but flight plans??? You learn what you're likely to need to know. I've been to France once, with a group, so all the official stuff was done for me; if I did it alone I'd still have to look it up or ask someone. And I have 500 hours. Does that make me a bad pilot?

So like everyone's been saying, go to France, but with someone who's done it before. A murky channel crossing when the sky blends into the sea and you can't see either coast is disorientating the first time; don't try it alone. But full marks for asking what to do, and nothing wrong with your questions. Good luck, and enjoy it - good restaurant at Le Touquet. :)

Thanks to everyone offering to help and giving advice - it's very much appreciated. But to be honest I just don't think I'm ready to make a flight like that yet. I admit I'm inexperienced. I've only had my PPL for 4 months and I've only flown 7 hours solo (25 dual) in the UK so far - and I have yet to make a solo landing in the UK at an airport other than the small A/G radio airfield near Norwich that I fly from (hence my apprehension to landing in France). I'm going to take it one step at a time from now on. I've already started planning a couple of flights where I hope to make a landing away from home. I've arranged with my dad that I will fly him to Newcastle on business next month - so that's what I'm ultimately aiming towards being able to do. Even something as straight forward as that is daunting for me at the moment, so don't think I wan't to undertake a trip to France just yet.

I will take your advice and I will remember those who have made kind offers - and I may take you up on those, but not until I've got a few more hours of flying under my belt!


Again many thanks,


Samir.

Hey Samir,

You definitely need to take this at your own pace, but also remember that sometimes you need to push the boundaries to learn. One great thing about the light aircraft flying community is they are a friendly bunch. I have learned a great deal just by being taken along on trips by friends (or even strangers) who have more experience than me. Just watching how these people do things and seeing that nothing goes wrong is a great confidence builder. As I said - see one, do one, teach one.

I'd be a bit careful about telling people you are going to take your dad on a business trip. If the rules in the UK are anything like in the US then a PPL cannot do that. You can take him if you were going anyway, but if you had no intention of going unless your dad was going along, the not so friendly regulators might consider you are getting into the air-taxi business. That's a big no-no. This sort of thing does happen all the time, but people don't talk about it in public, and if they catch you then you will be busted big time.

Hi Sam

I am also a newly qualified PPL, and did my first solo to Le Touquet a few weeks ago, from Lydd. It really is very straightforward and you MUSTNT be put off by some of the comments on this thread, although well intentioned I am sure. You will find it a most rewarding experience.

As a new PPL I am sometimes afraid of asking questions, and find some established PPL's (particularly on this forum) quite intimidating and critical.

Having taught sailing/windsurfing for most of my life, and with many thousands of ocean miles under my belt, I understand how important seamanship is. You cannot learn seamanship by meticulously studying literature alone. It is something that has to be progressively experienced. Unless you do, you will never develop this essential skill. Seamanship comes about by a combination of study, practical experience and learning from others. I am sure airmanship is learnt in a similar way. Unless you push the boundaries you will never progress. Although, you have to guage realistically the level of the boundary you pursue. For example, it would be fool hardy for a newly qualified Coastal Skipper to attempt a solo southern ocean crossing, as it would be for a new PPL to cross the channel for the first time in poor vis.

You should go for this Le Touquet adventure, and I think you are showing exellent responsibility for asking questions on the subject matter. Intimadating remarks from the likes of PilotWolf will only help to ensure that newly qualified PPL's like myself avoid asking questions on safety in fear that we will be shot down in flames for missing the obvious. Not to mention the damage it can have on ones confidence. PilotWolf, you should be ashamed! You are obviously not an instructor.

Samir

All good and relevant caution - but don't get too stuck to your little field in Norfolk.

The best thing I ever did was to team up with a couple of other guys, and fly together. Great for confidence building, and you feel a lot safer with another PPL beside you. You do need to sort out who's in charge, but that's not beyond the wit of man.

I'd be wary of the business trip - you're getting close to the line on CPL privileges, and AOC, and all that stuff.

The offer remains - when you're feeling up to a trip to France, stop off at Southend (has approach, and tower, and Customs, and ILS, and all the rest). I'll meet you there, and we can go from there to Le Touquet or Calais or Ostend, or wherever.

Southend also has a full briefing unit, so you can file your flight plan there, outbound and return.

Or if you'd rather, drive to Southend and fly with me in the Arrow to somewhere interesting.