I think that all the replies to this post have failed to read the part where he says that he doesn't intend to land in France. Since you are not landing there is no need to worry about customs. The only form that needs to be filled is a flight plan and whoever gives you the form or files it for you will probably help fill it in. Thats all there is to it.

Even landing in France for the first time is much much simpler than everyone has managed to make it sound. Simply fly south until it goes from dry to wet to dry again and land on a long black bit of tarmac. No need to attempt to speak the lingo as they all speak English or you can just point and shout.

There seem to be masses of people that want to go out of their way to make every next step in flying harder than it need be, perhaps so they feel important. There is really no reason why a low hour pilot can set off to Africa let alone France. If you feel like taking someone for the first time then at least take someone who thinks it is easy and who encourages you to stretch yourself.

In 4 years of flying out of Bournemouth as a PPL, I kept promising myself to have a go at an X Channel excursion but wanted to take someone along with me (not for the flying part, but more for the where and how to pay fees and what to put on drawback forms, how to file plan for the return trip, etc). Never quite got it together enough to do it with someone elese, so finally decided to go for it with a couple of pax in a PA28 (niece was newly qualified PPL at the time). Filed plan, then went to check aircraft - it was iced up, with -3 deg C and no sun on it. Went and drank coffee for 2 hours in vain hope that it would warm up, but no sign of any rise above -1 deg. Eventually had to give up and go home; that's the closest I ever got to an LFAT trip. I now live a bit far away to consider it easily.

Sam - I'd countenance going for it. Take Keef up on his offer if you have the slightest doubts (I might well do it if I lived closer). It will build confidence, but like all things in aviation (and life in general) - if your gut instinct tells you at any point that 'this isn't right' or 'I shouldn't be doing this' or 'I'm uncomfortable with the conditions, aircraft, etc' - BIN IT!!. A little frisson of excitement, even nervousness, is good - liquid adrenaline and pushing on against all odds is bad.

Enjoy - it could be the best adventure of your life so far! :D

Some good points so far.

As suggested a call to London Information and we can get the latest met reports at your destination, a/c reports of current conditions over the channel and a good idea of any problems talking to the French airfields.

If the worse should happen and you have problems a radio tuned to 124.6/124.75/125.47 will get a quick answer and appropriate action.

London Info, no radar but an information and help service for all pilots.

End of advert.

SWANFIS
London Information:-

- a very fine body of men & women
- much under resourced by NATS
- much appreciated by GA pilots

:) :) :) :)

/Engage Christopher Hitchens "contrariwise, said Alice" mode


I may get zapped for saying this, but I’ll say it anyway. Over-confidence can of course, be a real killer in all forms of aviation. One of the clichés of recreational flying is that a hundred-hour PPL who thinks he/she knows it all is likely to be a dangerous character. Can there, however, be a potentially dangerous level of UNDER-confidence? Accidentally or otherwise, the posts from our new contributor suggest a level of, to be blunt, timidity, which is surprising in someone who has had the motivation to get a PPL in the first place. The initial posting gave the impression that Mr S planned to meander down towards France, at a level which would put him inside class A airspace if he took any sort of predictable route from Norwich to Dover, stooge about a bit, and then fly back again, apparently reluctant, for no readily apparent reason, to talk to the perfectly civilized people at Lille, Le Touquet, Calais etc, or to land on a runway which looks and functions just like a runway (even if it is called a piste), by the process of wobbling ailerons, elevators and so on through air molecules which, amazingly, behave just like the ones back home. The basic info on crossing FIR boundaries and so forth is readily available in the books, the magazines, on the boards at most flying clubs, and on dozens of websites, and tends to get chatted about in GA pilot bars and coffee rooms. Samir now tells us that he hasn’t landed by himself at anywhere in the UK other than his base field. Not even, say, at Norwich, a normal, non-scary full ATC field a few minutes flying from his base. What a pity.

I agree with those above who have made the point that crossing the channel in a light single is straightforward. Any recently qualified PPL ought to be able to do it, and it’s fun to do. Teaming up with another PPL, perhaps a fellow newcomer to the hobby, is an excellent way to make light of the workload (which isn’t really all that high anyway). Anyway, I’d better forget about lifejackets, immersion suits, rafts and the like, as after posting this I may be facing hazards more igneous than aqueous.


/Christopher Hitchens mode disengaged

On the noticeboard in the tower at Thruxton:

"Learning HOW to fly takes about 45 hours. Learning WHEN to fly takes a lifetime".

I think it's significant that the more experienced people are on the whole telling you to take it slowly. I remember being a very new PPL, determined not to turn into one of those people who never flew beyond their own circuit. So six weeks after I got my licence I flew from Welshpool to Oxford to meet a friend for lunch. On the way back I got lost, got found three miles from Birmingham Airport in marginal vis, and directed to the M54 by a friendly Air Traffic Controller. A good learning experience. But all sorts of disasters could have happened, and someone told me afterwards that if I was going to fly round the country, I should take a more experienced pilot along. Who was right? There's no one answer to that. I think you need to make haste slowly; bearing in mind you're inexperienced, and it's an alien environment up there. Listen to everyone, but ultimately listen to your own feelings on this. If you never push yourself, you'll never go anywhere. But if you overdo it, it'll be dangerous, and you won't enjoy it - which is after all what it's all about.

Samirlsn

Just a quick thought - do you have a JAR PPL or a FAA PPL?

If it's FAA, you cannot leave British airspace in a G-Reg plane and you would need to access an N tail nunber (you probably have this figured out already.)

Hope this helps.

BTW, I 'did' my first channel crossing during my PPL and then solo at about 70hrs.

Like a lot of things, what sounds a bit intimidating is pretty straightforward when you watched someone else show you how.

France isn't your only option either, Ostend is a fun airport with a 3200m runway and some good restaurants a cab ride away.

Plus the Belgiums are very, very nice - I work with a business school in Brussels and spend a lot of time across there ..... the ATC people reflect the national stereotypes of being relaxed and friendly - but they are also professional.

Good luck

Hi FNG!

It's been a couple of hours, and nobody's zapped you yet!

I think that many of us are / were under-confident as newly qualified PPLs. I know that I was. It took me a good 20 hours before I flew with a passenger, a bit more than that before I asked for a class D airspace transit, and more still before I stopped finding excuses for not flying if there was a crosswind...:o A few years on, and these problems which used to cause anxiety all seem pretty trivial.

Under-confidence can, in my experience, best be cured by patience and friendly explanation. It's certainly much more likely to succeed than sarcasm. When I started mountain flying a couple of years ago, I was reluctant to fly close to the mountainside - which is something that one has to be able to do. It made me nervous, and I'd find alternative ways that avoided having to do it. Amazingly, and with the patient help of an instructor with over 20,000 hours mountain flying experience, I discovered that the air molecules near the mountain were just the same as those further away, and that there was nothing to be anxious about as long as I understood what I was doing. From his position of experience, he could have been sarcastic about my wimpishness, but I don't think it would have helped much.

It's not really a big deal if people ask questions they should know the answer to. It's better to ask than to go on being ignorant. Yes, there are other ways of finding the answers - but on the positive side, I'm sure a lot of people have read this thread who had never crossed the channel and who now have a better understanding of what's involved thanks to some of the replies.

What an excellent collection of advice. I must admit I would encourage you to go as soon as possible, take up one of the kind offers to share the trip and enjoy a great lunch in France. One thing that I did not notice is mention of Fuel Excise Drawback. This is one form that I never mind filling in. Every time you fly out of the UK HM Customs and Excise will pay you 27.34 pence for every litre of fuel you can squeeze into your plane. This is because you are exporting the fuel and they give you the duty back. I go to the South of France in my plane every month and each month they send me a cheque for £130. It will be less for smaller planes but it will certainly pay for your lunch and your landing fees.

The best thing I ever did when I first got my PPL was find two friends who were outstanding pilots and fly as much as possible with them. I suspect some of those above offering to go with you may turn out to be yours!

Finally, remember that to an instructor whose live quite literally revolves around the circuit a trip in the right hand seat with you will seem very appealing.

:eek:

Can we go back to the business trip thing a bit!

As I understand it - as long as you do not accept financial reward (other than "cost sharing") and are within the 90 day rule then you can take passengers under a PPL to any destination you could otherwise take youself. The reason for taking them there - their choice, your choice, their business, your business or whatever - is, AFAIK, not relevant.

It may be diffrerent in the US, as the first poster on this sub-topic suggested, but if there is a rule out there in CAA or JAA regulations I have missed that limits passenger flying from the above, then please enlighten me. :)

Ali

Hi Samir,

Please don't get put off by some of the supercilious posts above, crossing the channel should be fun, and it definitely isn't rocket science as they would have you believe.

The most difficult part about the whole thing is the paperwork (customs, flightplan etc), and for that reason alone, it is quite nice to go with someone who has done it before. That is exactly what I did. If you know anyone who is a channel-crossing veteran, do try and go with them because it will definitely build your confidence (or take up one of the kind offers posted here).

I read quite a good book by Nigel Everett called (I think) 'Beyond the PPL' and it made the very important point that you should try to give yourself a bit of a challenge with your PPL. Before I get shouted at, obviously safety is the first priority. For example, try getting a few MATZ clearances, cross the channel, land at a busy airport etc. This will really build your confidence - anyone can fly the easy route from A to B, but try getting clearance through some class D or some Special VFR clearance to get from A to B next time. Much more interesting, and much more educational.

Best of luck, and don't stick to your quiet Norwich airfield - there is much more to flying than that!

Samson.

I've been thinking about this giving yourself challenges thing. You see, I was an over-confident low hours PPL, who thought I could fly anywhere. I think we're probably at least as common as the under-confident won't-leave-the-circuit types, and far more dangerous.

Perhaps the secret is to give yourself challenges, try new things, but ONE AT A TIME. So either fly to a new airfield OR go through a MATZ OR get a Class D clearance OR cross a large expanse of water OR travel from one end of the country to another. Once you've done some of those, you can add in others. The trouble is, if you haven't flown outside your own area or landed away in the UK, a cross channel trip requires rather too many new things. So, actually, does a trip from Norwich to Newcastle - lots of MATZes and controlled airspace en route; get used to talking to them first.

None of these things are difficult, ONCE YOU'VE DONE THEM. But if a new pilot does all of them for the first time, he/she is likely to be at the limit of what they can cope with. And then, if the workload increases at all due to weather or something unexpected, they hit overload, which can be dangerous. One option is taking a more experienced pilot along for the ride. Another is to take things slowly - which doesn't mean at snail's pace.

After all, what's the rush? France will be there next year. There is a balance between never leaving the circuit, and doing it all immediately. A PPL is a licence to learn, and nervousness is sometimes there for a reason.

OK so I made some assumptions but to the likes of mumraaa et al please read the first line of my post again.

My point is if this guy has been issued a CAA/JAA licence either on the basis of a checkride or a foreign licence he MUST have taken a GFT and the Air Law exams. Therefore if these subjects weren't covered by the examiner there must be a deficency in the examination process and indeed if UK trained the instruction process.

No I am not an instructor but I have flown with a good few people with different ICAO licences and there is a definate difference in knowledge standards. May be the difference is on the priority of procedures but I have encountered pilots wanting to fly a strange a/c without doing W+B and when asked why was told they had never performed one nor had any idea what density altitude was and why it was important to performance but was in possesion of a nice shiny new CAA licence.... needless to say I didn't fly with him.

Even more recently I encountered another JAA pilot who had just passed out from unknown causes, suffering shortness of breath and chest pain. Yet couldn't grasp my concern as to why he should not fly! What happened to Human Performances and Limitations?

Intersting how I seem to have been flamed more than FNG with his comments - may be it because I ve dared to bring up this touchy subject again? :mad:

Just like to say thanks for all the fine advice in this thread. Im a relatively inexperienced PPL and as Im looking to do my CPL and IR next year im planning on broadening my horizons over the next twelve months.

Sometimes us newbies need our hands holding and it's nice to know that most of those that have already been there are willing to help:) :)

Thanks

Overconfidence
 

Hey Whirly, bet you were never as overconfident as this:-

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ian.fallon/movies/helo.wmv

According to the flyer forum, from whence this came, the keen rotary pupe is a fixed-winger who thinks "how hard can this helo gig be? I'll just jump in and give it a go". Ooops.

Brickbats
 

Wolfie, wolfie...

I know that the nettle stung but it'll soon wear off...

What did you expect?

Have you remembered everything you were taught and everything you read when you studied for your licence?

Of course not.

You will also have 'filed away' in your grey matter stuff that didn't require regular recall. File it away for long enough and the inevitable archiving process is called 'forgetting'.

Isn't the human brain wonderful??

Sami posted for some advice - your response was designed to humiliate him. Insted, he rightly got the Germolene and a cuddle.

Were you bottle fed?? Just curious.....

HP

Hairy Plane, et al

Well as I am obviously not allowed an opinion I m out of this debate. You obvious have no sensible argument against the points I raised so lower yourself to attacking me instead.

I have already twice pointed out that no way did I intend to humiliate Sami but you have chosen to ignore that fact or are able to read my subconcious thoughts that not even I am aware of.

Yes I ve forgtton things I learnt but know where to re-learn them if necessary. Its just a shame that Sami's training and examination was not well enough found for him to have the knowledge he requires. He didn't KNOW the answers, nor had he been TAUGHT where to find them, he hadn't FORGOTTEN them.

If as PIC I infringe LGW airspace because I didn't know how to read a chart, because I hadn't been taught it or was not aware of the need to be taught it, it would be my fault as PIC legally but the failing is with the FI and examiner who not teaching the process and for not realising the fact during the GFT. The examiner is giving you the ability to fly as PIC with pax - if you do not have the knowledge required by the CAA/JAA/FAA etc to pass the exams he has not properly examined you and is negligent in his duty surely?

IN CASE YOU HAVE FORGOTTEN ALREADY I DIDN'T INTEND TO HUMILIATE SAMI JUST QUESTION THE STANDARDS OF TRAINING EXAMINATION.

pilotwolf,

I don't think there was anything wrong with your post, it brought up a good point which you have clarified. I think the problem was with another post which went 'missing'.

pilotwolf,

Without wishing to do this thing to death, you wrote:

"... but I can't believe a licence was issued to someone who, (probably not due to their fault), doesn't know when a flight plan is required or how to file it."

Wellllll, I guess I could look up how to fill in that damn form, and what I'm supposed to do with it...it's been a couple of years since I've flown to Ireland and last had to fill one in, and the old grey matter is a bit overloaded and has buried that bit of info. And let's see...if you're flying more than 10 miles from the coast it's a good idea to file a flight plan, and I'm sure I would...but is it actually REQUIRED...you know what, I'd have to look that one up to be certain...I know, let's ask on PPRuNe; it's easier than remembering where to look it up.

You get my point? Now, if what you meant was that many newish PPLs just barely have the knowledge needed to fly in the modern world, I'd probably agree. Maybe I mean "some", not "many" - how would I know? And yes, sometimes it's due to the...er...imperfections of rushed training establishments and low hours, hourbuilding instructors. We know all this. But I think what some of us are objecting to is the apparent tone of your posts, the "I can't believe a licence was issued" etc. A low hours PPL doesn't need that. He/she needs help, reminding, gaps filled in, whatever it is.

Your post may not have been INTENDED to humiliate Sam. But if I were him, I'd have cringed, oversensitive little soul that I am.
:rolleyes: And I think others felt the same way. That's all.

Take care, fellow rotor addict. ;)

Whirly

Well done whirly - beautifully put!