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Breakfast Patrols
Dear Go-Around,
Breakfast Patrols have been around since Pontius was still in the ATC. Please be assured that these are only conducted in good VFR using the good old mark-one eyeball. At the risk of calling you a fxrty, why not actually join in one. You might then slag everybody off for poor airmanship when you have actually witnessed it and not just speculated on something you have no experience of. However, in the meantime indicate the legislation that will - presumably by your definition and not through actual practice - be broken in pursuit of a free fry-up and I'll let you know if I have ever witnessed it?? If BP's were dangerous you can trust our CAA to ban them. The ones I have participated in have always been the subject of a comprehensive briefing. The good old internet should facilitate this - pity we don't see them these days....fingers crossed for a few in 03! You never know G-A, you might just sharpen up your flying if you joined in??!! HP |
G-A
Lighten up man. I can see where u are coming from but......... How many position reports have u heard that actually help you get a tally on someone?! and lets be honest, class G airspace, get your bloody eyes out mate. If you are trusting a radar service all the time you might as well just climb into the nearest cloud layer and fly RAS all day. Let these guys have their fun. Too many people nowadays try to put a dampner on things that have worked for years! Not that Im condoning 1 v multi combat in 152s but hey `see and avoid`!! Of course, another alternative is to tape out your reg so when u land u can deny everything and still get a free brekkie!! Hope you guys have fun if you organise one! Fry me a kipper I`ll be back for breakfast! |
Stik
Thanks for the offer - will take you up on it - and thanks for the input on Friday. We code a number of sectors and fly a strict pattern with a number of sweeper aircraft when we can get them. Briefing before hand on safety and general 'keeping out of trouble' stuff. |
Go Around,
There really is life out there you know once you get a bit of 'experience' under your belt..... Not everyone dons their Ray-Ban aviators and flies to Le Touq for lunch, or spends all week programming their shiny new GPS just to fly once round the circuit at Elstree. As bizarre as it may seem, some hardy aviators actually look out of the cockpit windows, and use an old fashioned chart to navigate with! Its a bit of fun mate, something to break the monotony of modern life. Weekend warriors indeed! Some people actually fly for fun you know... Hairyplane, Thanks for the invite.. I'm quite a regular visitor to OW, so may take you up on your offer. Maybe visiting again in the summer when it all dries out.. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of the wife..... and managed to sneak away to the airstrip. :) An unknown aviator |
Hairyplane
You never know G-A, you might just sharpen up your flying if you joined in??!! There really is life out there you know once you get a bit of 'experience' under your belt..... Just imagine, God forbid, that there was a collision on one of these breakfast patrols, and it turned out in the report that no position reports were made and some "evasive manoeuvres" were undertaken. How long do you think that GA would last once the papers got a hold of it? I've never been in a breakfast patrol, but as soon as the first one is organised, let me know, i'll be there just for the experience. I must admit that they do sound "exciting" but, as my first FI taught me, assume that no-one else has seen you, so get on the blower and let them know you're there. If you're on a breakfast patrol, please be careful, and don't do it over my house, I don't want to pick the peices up Ignore my last post, I've just re-read it and realise how much I sound like a man from the Authority!! I do however still feel that it's a slightly risky way to earn a breakfast, but as suggested i'll be there for the next one, so, please, please, please, keep your eyes skinned for the bloke flying a constant HDG and HT. It'll be me. :D |
Go Around,
I wasn't trying to doubt your experience, but from your initial post it did appear that you didnt really understand why certain pilots do certain things.. Every pilot has good reasons to do certain things with an aeroplane (but I'm still trying to work out what posesses a pilot to fly gyrocopters!) and maybe you just prefer flying straight and level instead of doing something interesting with your flying.. And glider tugging doesn't exactly deserve the 'interesting' tag. I know cos as a 3000hr CPL/IR, I've also been there and done it too, and been incredibly bored by the ups and downs of it. Not to mention the sheer arrogance of certain glider pilots. But that's another story... So, you be happy with your flying and us Brekkie patrollers will be happy with ours... As Hairyplane said: If BP's were dangerous you can trust our CAA to ban them Gawd, I sound like bloody Victor Meldrew! |
mostly on topic
I can't help feeling from this thread that the GA scene needs to lighten up a bit. This forum offers plenty of evidence that of the 50,000 or so pilots out there in the UK there are probably 50,001 motivations. We all have our reasons for flying and all experience (and are experienced at) different things. Unless there is clear evidence that something is dangerous we shouldn't criticise those who do it. Everything is unsafe if it is outisde of your experience or personal safety / comfort zone.
I have flown a Robinson R22 and been told by commercial helicopter pilots that it is follish and unsafe. I fly formation and have been told by others at the flying club that formation flying should be reserved for the military who practice every day. I have turned aircraft upside down and had it explained to me that this is a sure way to bring death and destruction closer. I have organised Breakfast Patrols and there are those on this thread who would have me hung drawn and quartered for reducing the safety of GA. I guess my personal safety zone is to only do things which can either be participated in at different levels (so that I can choose my level) or things which I have been trained for. With a BP you can choose to fly straight and level and hope to avoid detection, you can keep your eyes open and change course to route to the blind spot of a spotter aircraft (few hang out of the window to look behind them), or you can fly in a more spirited fashion to avoid detection. This is personal choice and I am not convinced that a saving of around £5.00 is going to make anyone extend much beyind their personal comfort / safety zone. I you feel you might be tempted to pull into a loop to avoid detection but have not practiced such a manouvre can I suggest that you dont attend a BP I organise. As with G-A I don't want the pieces scattered around me. |
Maybe if the CAA get on the case with Brekkie Patrols, they'll also try to ban flying displays, formation flying, Dawn to Dusk flights (Yawn!), the PFA rally All of the above forms of flying are totally different kettles of fish. Flying displays are authorised/regulated by the CAA and an amount of training is required. Formation flying should be undertaken by trained pilots, and most of the time is. Dawn to dusk flying in just the same as a quick hop down the road for a £100 cup of tea. The PFA rally is, I agree, pretty hectic on arrivals days, but AICs and briefings are issued and pilots make position reports and/or everyone arrives through pre-defined channels. Breakfast patrols are usually made up by, and I mean no disrepect here, relatively infrequent and amateur (by licence only) fliers. Maybe you disagree? They are not NOTAMed (unknown a/c giving no position reports, hauling tail all over the sky.) Although it might look like it, i'm not a NIMBY/CAA man/old fart etc etc. I enjoy a bit of excitement now and then but only if I consider it safe. I've done dogfighting, formation flying, low-level flying and flour bombing sort of things but amongst highly experienced professional pilots that i've known for a long time and trust their flying skills. As for glider towing, I think that it was the most "exciting" :eek: flying i've done as there was at least one attempt on my life nearly every day. :rolleyes: |
GA
Sorry old chap, I do not mean to question or denigrate your vast 500 hours of flight time. However, there are those around who are considerably more experienced than your good self. Ponder the following: At 300 hours you think you know it all. At 500 hours you know you know it all. At 1000 hours you realise that you don't know as much as you thought you knew. at 5000 hours you know you'll never know it all. Just because there is an AIC out does not mean everybody will read it - more's the point, actually confining aircraft to certain areas (lanes, zones or not) is actually increasing the risk of collision. What frequency do you listen to to ensure that you receive standard position reporting throughout the UK? I didn't know that the radio was a primary flight control. Since you appear so keen to open the rule book can you please tell me what rule or rules BPs break? Also could you please remind me if dropping of items from aircraft is still against the ANO with specific approval. (ref. Flour Bombing) Also, how do you ensure that an adequate lookout is maintained with your head so far (shall we say) up your own tailwheel? Oh! I mean no disrespect by that of course! Wake up man and look out of your aircraft. |
Breakfast Patrols
Hi M14P,
Like the post and agree with you 100%. I am sure that G-A will modify his views once he has taken part. So easy to make a judgement when you have never done it and made the assumption that the whole thing is a free for all dogfight i.e. not properly organised by responsible safety-conscious people who certainly don't want a smokin' hole in their back yard or indeed that of their neighbour, nimby or otherwise. I operate from a farm strip so I can only respond to an invite. Please...! I can smell the bacon already and do you know what? I reckon I won't have to pay for it! HP |
So, any ideas how to run a 'modern' BP. Format, style etc. I have my ideas but I'd like to hear from others.
I think that Mr Hairyplane might be considering out-foxing the rest of us by appearing in something slow and wooden (poor radar signature) probably trailing a Gypsy induced oil haze. I've considered that sheer speed might be an advantage since although you might be spotted from afar a dash of many knots to the overhead might be enough to avoid identification. There is also the tatic of swamping in which I see potential - a coordinated attack (Blitz Style) of many machines. Some will get through and others will be cannon fodder (I have images in my mind of a very widely spaced line abreast that it simply too difficult to patrol). That way our Brave Breakfastless Brethren can share in our spoils when safely on the ground. |
The best attack that I ever heard of was a tigermoth pilot who came overhead the airfield at around 8000ft, put it into a spin and recovered once within the (brekkie)safe area!
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Did a few defending acts at WW years ago. It is a lot of fun. If anything (Pay attention Go-Around) it sharpens up your lookout and helps your handling skills. You just need to use a little common sense. At least at Waltham we had the defending advantage of controlled airspace above and behind us.
Looking forward to the next BP so I can have a go at a free breakfast. (Having an aircraft with very little reg helps). If you read this Go-Around, the type of Licence you posses is only a guide. Some of the best pilots I have ever flown with are PPL's some of the worst ATPL's. Just keep on learning and look at everything with an open mind. Regards Wide 8500 hrs ATPL and wishing that one-day the amount I have to learn would get smaller:) |
Well I hate to have to bring it down to this level, but i'm obviously not getting my point accross very well.
M14P: Do you think i'm stupid enough to think I know every thing about flying? The 500hrs I quoted was just my experience of VFR puddle jumping. I for one, read the AICs, as should every one, there really is no excuse not to now. If people are too lazy/arrogant/stupid to do so, then more fool them. I would have thought that a BP would have confined everyone to the area of the field anyways. The flour bombing I participated in was an organised event with a dispensation from the CAA. Wide-Boy: I agree, and as I said, amateur by licence only. I know that there are PPLs out there that are better pilots than I will ever be, but on the other hand, there are some 50hr pilots out there who don't know their @rse from an aileron, and never will. Back to the point, I feel that most people do not fly regularly enough to go flying close enough to some one to read their registration. If I get close enough to read someones reg or they read mine without me knowing that they were there, then I'd start to worry. That's just my opinion and not everyone agrees with it, and it would be boring if they did. Just picture the scene, a half decent day after a bout of bad weather and half the world and his dog goes flying. Bimbling along minding their own business at about 4000ft when out of the blue a well flown a/c comes up alongside for a wing waggle. No harm in that I guess, apart from the bloke inside the intercepted a/c with recently browned trousers and an Airprox to fill in. "Sorry mate, thought you were after a free brekkie" Or same bloke on his way back from somewhere when a well spun Tiger Moth shoots past him! The best attack that I ever heard of was a tigermoth pilot who came overhead the airfield at around 8000ft, put it into a spin and recovered once within the (brekkie)safe area! Safe? I don't think so. I'm not againts BPs at all, and as I I've said, I've not yet been to one and I'll be there for the next one and hopefully my views will change. I'm just thinking of those that aren't in the know. It looks like we'll be creating our own bad press/problems/Airproxes and none of us want that. |
Close enough to read the registration?! Airprox!? Puddle Jumping!
You are having a bit of a laugh aren't you. How close do you reckon you'd have to be to read a reg. I can read a few in the circuit if the light is right. I'm terribly sorry but the world of Private Flying is not about budding commercial pilots building hours by tugging gliders and writing Airprox reports every time a aircraft crosses the horizon - it's about private flying (funny old thing). That means that it's a hobby and it's fun. People who fly aircraft - regardless of license colour - are quite capable of realising what is really dangerous and what is safe. The next time you are in the Open FIR consider this - It is an uncontrolled VFR environment and should be treated as such. Filing an Airprox in such an environment is a comment on your lookout just as much as it is on the other party involved. The reason that you are not getting your point across is because your point is rather silly. If I understand the subtext of your point correctly then we should all be filing flight plans, adhering to prescribed tracks and making position reports. I know, let's ban General Handling! We are not deliberately strapping on an aircraft purely to attempt suicide. The organisers of BPs have the ability to pick the defenders from suitably skilled individuals. BPs tend to take place around breakfast time (when the bimblers are generally still on the ground). A BP arrival should - in truth - be no more than a non-radio (shock, horror) circuit join. One idea that I felt might enhance safety (mindful of GAs sensibilities) was a general broadcast every few minutes on the host aerodromes radio frequency advising of the BP activity. |
Point taken.
If I look hard enough then registrations can be seen quite a way off. What I would object to would be another a/c semi-formating on me without my position. Highly unlikely I know, but possible, and if I felt that my a/c was in danger because of the proximity of another a/c then I would file an airprox just as I was if I got too close. (But needless filing of airproxes is not my point or intention) Like you say, private flying is supposed to be fun, and it is. One idea that I felt might enhance safety (mindful of GAs sensibilities) was a general broadcast every few minutes on the host aerodromes radio frequency advising of the BP activity. And no I don't think that we should file flt plans for GH and stick to set tracks,:eek: but letting people know that you're about (if you have a radio) is common courtesy and above all good airmanship. Apologies if I've put anyone's back up. Mine was just a small point badly put :o Still any chance of an invite?? |
Back to the basics.......
How to organise a BP (as it has become known on this thread) ?? I am sure we can throw up a few ideas that can be played around with and discussed, and maybe even discarded. To start...... 1. Get aerodrome owners permission !! 2. Set a fixed time window (from xx hour to yy hour) 3. Define any noise sensitive / environmentally sensitive areas to be avoided. 4. Probably wise to set an upper vertical limit. 5. Define a safe area around the aerodrome inside which the attacker is home safe (avoids silly antics in the circuit when pilots have more pressing things to do...like landing) 6. Probably best to set a minimum arrival height over the aerodrome (to avoid low flying and blundering into the circuit at warp speed) 7. Set local rules such as no straight in approaches etc. 8. Publicise the event along with the rules and any local airspace / environmental restrictions. 9. May be worthwhile notifying to the CAA Airspace Utilisation Service as a rally or fly in so they can publish it more widely. oohh! and yes.....set local weather minima, no thundering around in the mist and murk, definitely good VFR only. any other ideas ? Regards TMC |
BP's
Any other ideas?
Yup. I get so annoyed when people advertise a 'Full English' and there isn't any black pudding to be seen anywhere. Love the stuff. Organisers please ensure - nice spicy sausages, field mushes and lots of black pud. HP |
How about adding:
Max patrol range Inform other local airfields/LARS/MATZ etc so that they can warn others |
Black Pudding! OK.
I think that patrol parameters should be clearly defined within easily identifiable landmarks or a radius - that is in the interests of the patrol too since it is easier to protect a smaller area. I think that so long as the whole thing is kept simple with a strict 'no heroics' message then it could be a really fun way of running a fly in. Happy New Year all |
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