Strange G.A. Practices!
 

I flew into a small airfield (anonymous for now) not that long ago, having departed from one controlled by NATS.

The destination strip has a metalled runway, with a single taxiway exit at the easterly end leading to the ramp.

Whilst on short finals another aircraft flew at 90 deg across the runway at < 50.ft :eek:

I landed in a westerly direction with backtracking to vacate being the only option. I called G-***** backtracking and was then taken aback - putting it mildly, to see this other aircraft on a very tight base leg and calling telling me not to backtrack as he was landing :confused: :confused:

Now what would you do:(

Tell you what I did later:mad: :mad:

d_b - hope to hear your learned opinion

:mad:

That's incredible!

Let's ignore his breaking the 500' rule for his low pass across the runway. We'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that you misjudged his height, since that's a fairly standard defense when accused of low flying. (Note that I'm not suggested for one second that you did mis-judge his height - I'm just giving him the benefit of what tiny amount of doubt there may be!)

Did he offer any alternatives to your suggestion that you backtrack? Maybe you should have just stayed where you were? Or pulled off of the manoeuvring area while he landed?

Since you were on final approach before he was, you had right of way, and you maintain that right of way until you vacate the runway. Common sense clearly says you were right, and it seems that the law agrees with common sense on this occassion, too.

I'm curious - what did you do???

FFF
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(I was once landing at an uncontrolled airfield in America, called final, only to hear, about 30 seconds later, an aircraft call that he was "crossing the runway". I called "very short final" for the same runway, and the other pilot - if we can call him that - replied "Yeah, don't worry, I'll be well clear. And how long have you been practicing the English accent for?" :confused: This was followed by one of the fastest runway-crossings I've ever seen! My hand was on the throttle ready to go around - it wasn't necessary, but it was close!)

FFF
Let's just say I've been around awhile - <50 ft - well I was at about 250ft and although no APAPI on runway, I was making a reasonable app. And I was looking down on him.

Tell you what I did when a few more (maybe) post. Wondering if I dare ever mention the airfield by ICAO code......:p

I guess it's all down to judgement on rwy length and how tight, tight base was...I would probably have taxied onto the grass and rejoined the rwy once 'crazy man' had passed. :eek:

Not enough experience to have ever been in a similar situation, but I suppose it depends how far you were form the landing end of the runway and what type of aircraft it was on approach, but I'd be looking to get off the runway onto the grass as soon as possible. I'd assume the other guy MUST have some kind of emergency and therefore may not be able to make the best of landings or be able to stop in time or steer to avoid me.

Another option would be to contimue to the far end of the runway, if there was room left, but this would involve turning your back on the other a/c.

By the way, why not name the airfield? Not their fault and you're not accusing them of anything. Or was it their CFI who was misbehaving?

I would have:

a) replied on R/T "G-XX Negative: suggest you go around as I am still occupying the runway"; whilst

b) simultaneously exiting onto the grass ASAP because being right is not enough... I want to be right and alive!; and finally

c) file an airprox (assuming he did continue to land).

What a t*sser!

Go on then, where was it?

After making sure that the other aircraft did not hit you, I hope that you took the reg and reported the facts to the CAA. Unless the person was in an emergency situation, in which case they should have used either a mayday or pan call, they appear to be in contravention of at least two parts of rule 17, plus possible certain other rules and articles.

Was he suffering an emergency, it seems the only reasonable explanation for the behaviour?

G

Its a lot easier to sit, think and write about it, than decide in the few seconds you had available. :eek:

However, I think I would immedialtely hold postion, and be ready to escape off the runway in case he fouled up.

It also depends a bit on the runway length (and maybe its width?), but I guess if you had just landed (normally) and were backtracking, you must have been within his proposed landing area. Given that, I think I would move to the side and would have made another call repeating the runway was occupied and that there was no space to land.

I'd still keep plan B to escape off the runway though.

A quick (make that long!) word on the ground would seem highly appropriate, as well as the "reg" and a call to the safety people - maybe. Given the low fly over as a precedent, it doesn't sound like you would be talking to a responsible person, does it?

Well, there was nowhere to go - the grass was taller than I am used to seeing on an airfield with a long grass policy (i.e. to deter birds) in fact it was tall enough to conceal a Pelican!

I could not take refuge up at the far "stop end" as I had already done a 180 and was not going to turn my back on this n*****r. I have learned never to turn my back on an aeroplane in motion or racing car - do so at your peril.

His only distress seemed to be the one he was trying to inflict upon me:rolleyes: basically the type of aviator one is best keeping well clear of.

I am well used to hearing "land after" clearances either directed at me or following aircraft - no problem. ATC MATS Pt. 1 clearly defines when this may be used in U.K. - for an a/c to assume a land after does not, however, work with an a/c backtracking the "active! - oh no!

Bottom line - unless he was effected by an emergency in which case I'd go easy on him, unless the airfield is ATC controlled he can't do a "land after" - in fact he's not allowed to land whilst you're still occupying the runway, which you are if you are backtracking and that's the only realistic exit option. Now I'll admit that there's a world of difference between the law and practical reality when faced with this situation, but I'd have certainly not done anything that would have risked my aeroplane (like taxiing off into the grass) and would have probably said "G-XXXX still occupying the runway suggest you go-around". And if he still landed, a report would have been in order.

Andy

So come on, sharpshot, what did you do (and where was it)?

With the restrictions you mention above, I suppose I'd seriously consider shutting down the a/c and getting out leaving it where it was. Reason being it'd be the only way to ensure my own safety in a dangerous situation.

My only other thought, when you called back-tracking, is it possible he thought you were about to start backtracking from, say, a point somewhere off the runway at the other end, but had not yet started? i.e. did he know you were actually sat on the runway? What was the vis like?

EastMids, is there actually a rule forbidding a pilot to land when the runway is occupied? I thought it was left to the discression of the second pilot as to how much room was available/required etc. I've certainley seen it happen several times, usually on wide grass runways where the first a/c can pull well over to one side before the other lands.

Just to give you a clue where to be very wary - he's still bound to be there - I'm talking east of Cambridge and north of the home counties.

I did speak to our CAA aerodrome inspector latterly and you can guess what he said!

Now having memories of another um ...aviator who I nearly did MOR
- oh well another thread in the making.

I must admit, its a novelty looking at the hits on this - everyone who has looked has actually responded:cool:

P.S. I don't go out of my way filing MOR's, although I do get a little concerned watching fellow aviators going over built up areas too darn low - if I can read the reg, I'm sure Joe Bloggs can too.

Hey knobbygb,

I do believe that if you are beyond the declared runway LDA and stopway etc, another aircraft may land on the area declared usable for landing - but how many airfields in our little land have all this space. Don't take above as gospel - I have a feeling that East Mids could be an ATCO and correct me - please do!

And knobbygb - I assure you I was on the runway
I tried vacating a bush strip in Aussie Andy's former home once - what a mistake and then I had to land back in "civilisation" (Oz ?)
with a right grubby C.177RG- not cool!!

Being a pilot with little experience (nearly 200 hours), I would want to get out of the way as safely and quickly as possible. I would assume either of:

1. He's got a problem and needs to land quickly so I need to take avoiding action. OK so he should PAN or MAYDAY in this case, but who knows what's going on in the cockpit. or

2. He's an arrogant S.O.B. so I need to take avoiding action.

For me, the priority is not to prove a point but to avoid physical contact. I don't know how long or wide the runway is or how far you had back-tracked, but my first inclination would be to stop immediately, preferably as far to one side as possible, then radio my position (so he can choose to go round). If possible, I'd turn round and give him as much runway as possible.

Once on the ground, I'd want to talk to the pilot, find out what he was doing and then sympathise or protest in the strongest possible terms.

What did you do?

Knobblygb

"A flying machine or glider must not land on a runway which is not clear of other aircraft, unless an aerodrome ATC unit otherwise authorises"

No ATC, no authorisation. Interestingly though:

"Aircraft on the ground must give way to those taking off or landing..."

Sharpshot,

Interesting comment about being beyond the LDA - not sure. And no, I'm not ATC.

Andy

But, jayemm, our friend says that the grass was too long for him to be able to safely vacate!

Point taken EastMids - I should know that. I think what is happening at the grass strip I fly from is that the runways are physically very wide (about 45M, I think), but only the centre 18M is oficially runway - off to eaither side and you're on the taxiway. This would explain the 'multipule landings' I described.

Having said that, I now realise that many of my early attempts at landing were probably on taxiways :eek: ;)

As for the right of way, I'd stick my neck out and say that since he was still on the runway he was technically still landing and so had right of way as the lower of the 2 aircraft. Quite happy to be proved wrong again though.:D

Sharpshot, didn't mean to imply you weren't on the runway, just that the other guy may have thought you weren't.

sharpshot,

The definition of the 'land after' procedure does not preclude its use with backtracking aircraft. As long as the specified criteria are met then then the direction of travel is irrelevant. However, because of this anomaly, some units do have extra procedures published in their Mats PT2 which outlaw its use in such circumstances.

With regard to the LDA, technically you are required to be beyond the 'runway strip' before being considered clear of the active runway. The strip dimensions depend on the length of the runway and wether or not it is an instrument runway.

Yup, the priority to landing a/c rule is really related to taxiing a/c not entering the runway whilst something's on approach. If you're already on it, different story.

Number one priority in any sitation like this must be protection of firstly lives and a close second aeroplanes. However, based on what we've been told I fundamentally believe that the guy landing was in the wrong (assuming no ATC and no land after) and in those circumstances my secondary objective would be to make him realise that he was wrong and for him to take the proventative action - not leave it to me.

Andy

Unless it's a trick question. Was the other aircraft a helecopter?

Aussie Andy,

I know. I view vacating onto grass very risky unless I am familiar with it or ATC says it's ok. My suggestion depends on the width of the runway.

Either way, if I hadn't started the backtrack I'd try to keep as clear as possible irrespective of what rules exist that say the other guy shouldn't land!

Now the enquiring minds are getting technical - good for you!
Here goes; Licensed aerodromes have to conform to CAP 168 and Runways are coded from 1 to 4.
Now I can't speak on grass runways, but the same probably applies. (Always in something a bit heavy for potentially damp grass and I hate to think about all the performance issues regarding whether its wet and how long etc.)

Back to the point all runways are (should be) safeguarded with a "strip area" around the runway. This ranges from 40m up to 150m for a precision app. runway. Best way to visualise this is usually by noting where any runway holding points/stop bars/wig wags are located. Inside ot these and you have not "vacated" the runway.......so in this instance, it was still mine.

I'll try and look through the books and see if same applies to grass runways........don't suppose their are any precision approaches on to grass:D :D

No it was not a helicopter - and don't be fooled by them either. Just remember, and I was useless at physics, the forces required to kep them airborne have to exceed the equivalent of their weight hence rotor wash can do a lot of damage. Please excuse my lay interpretation, but the nett result may not be pretty/

Got to go to a meeting.......other side of airfield!

sounds to me like the 'aviator' has a helluva lot of confidence in his landing abilities, not to mention an equivalent ego/arrogance to feel the need to demonstate this.

If it WAS an emergency (SS did not mention any pan/mayday calls) then if he has time to tell you not to backtrack because he is landing, then he has enough time to tell you he has problems.

so for my money's worth radio silence would probably make me think that he has a problem, "aviate, navigate, communicate" and all that...

sitting in my chair, I'm not really sure what I would have done in SS's situation but a game of chicken would not be ruled out....:mad:

I assume as this thread is happening that the aviator was able to land/stop in the space available so we wait with baited breath for the answer.

sky...

It is immaterial if the runway is grass or hard as far as runway strips are concerned. For a visual runway, code 1, the width is 30m either side of the centreline, and for a visual code 2 runway it is 40m. Straying a bit off-topic but for an instrument runway we hold closer than the edge of the runway strip, it can be 90m from the centreline for a code 4 rwy (ignoring Cat III).

Although you're quite correct in saying you haven't vacated the runway until you are outside this area, in practice providing the acft has vacated the runway and is keeping going we will clear the next one to land. Sometimes you have too!! :D But here I am talking full ATC.

But back to the original post, clear breach of Rule 17(7)(b) in my view.

If this had happened in Canada, the aircraft on the ground would have to vacate the runway for the landing aircraft.

See CARs 602.19 (7) - "Where an aircraft is in flight or manoeuvring on the surface, the pilot-in-command of the aircraft shall give way to an aircraft that is landing or about to land."

...we thought that was meant to apply to aircarft not yet on the runway, i.e. taxiing, versus those that have just landed, which kinda makes sense, yeah?

How can a pilot who has just landed on a runway with no turn offs (long grass) do anything other than backtrack? As the landing isn't over until the aircraft is clear of the active runway, SS in these circumstances is not technically in an aircraft manouvering, he is in an aircraft landing. Unless the chap behind him had an emergency then SS has priority until such time as he clears the active.

I know it's easy to say sitting in the comfort of home but I would have been tempted not to hurry to get out of this arseholes way and continued to taxi back to the end of the runway. Alternatively, if I'd felt my safety was threatened enough I'd consider coming to a stop, shutting down and getting out for a ciggie and see what Mr. Hotshot did with the situation.

Once I felt safe enough I'd clear the active for him to land. If his tone was as condesceding as I'm interpreting it, then I'd have chinned him. :D

My first instinct was that it was an airfield that they hold one of the british aero nats at, but then you said east of cambridge.

The airfield i thought you meant is very similar. At this years nats, arriving aircraft landed in a westerly direction then continued to the end to a holding area. They then did a beautiful formation scarper to the pan (this happened when lots of ships arriving).

Perhaps my experience is very gash, having been raised on farmstrips and "less than controlled" airfields but i would have just said "Roger. Will expedite my taxi. " Then left the decision to him/her.

In my humble experience it is safe to land over the top of someone who is backtracking or is stationary if you keep them in view with sideslip, you know what you are doing and you have excess runway.
If they have to go-around and they feel agreeved then i am sure they will come and talk to you about it.

As an aside, a similar thing happened to me at work the other day in LGTS (look it up because i cant spell it). A C150 landed then could not decide where to taxi/back track/ spin on the spot etc etc. he was been actively encouraged vocally by ATC to leave in any direction possible but that did not nothing to stifle the surprise when he turned to face us and saw an A321 go around from the flare.
Were we cross? Of course not - it would make a good bar story for him.

Ps. dont get at 50' circuits until you have spent a lazy summer evening in your cub doing them, please.

Interesting overnight contributions.

Vintage ATCO - I have a sign outside the door that tells me if we are CAT1 or CAT III - just wish I had the I/R and the plane in which to practice the latter - can't even experience from the jumpseat anymore, although did one myself in a DC-10 sim once - YO!:D

LowNSlow - Glad you interpret my understanding of situations and Aussie - beats me what they do in Canada:confused:

Meslag - Circuit height does not give me a problem - but how many people go crosswind at about 50' with another plane on short final:rolleyes: Another issue that bothered me in the cold light of day - what was he doing / where was he before I had visual contact with him?

Just like to point out that this was not Old Buck......like that place on a sunny day.
However, place in question is related to a word you'll find in the good old Oxford Dict.

Frankly I felt like decking the pratt! But I'm not like that......really!
There was no EMERGENCY, I have a feeling he probably owned the place ?

I had done a 180 when he informed me he WAS landing. A rapid survey of my surroundings told me I had no way of vacating so I went as close to the runways edge as possible and put the brakes on. He landed.....well clear of me - but hey there are no guarantees - backtracked and by the time I reached the apron he had shutdown and vanished. Welcome to the O.K. Coral - been there once before and I don't think it will ever change:eek:

Next time I met up with a gentleman from the CAA I told him about it. The event, relative to the location, did not appear to surprise him. "Hope you MOR'd him".

A few weeks ago I landed at another airfield into a 17 kt. headwind. Never landed there before although had taken off. The landing roll was very short and I thought I could vacate on to the grass to park alongside others. The AFISO advised that I would have to roll to the end. Now, despite trying to expedite, the guy behind had to go around. I apologised.
At least nobody was endangered.

Gotta love this thread :)

I have always wondered what "Cat III" etc. means - so searched on PPRUNE, if interested you can read a bit about it here. Where is this in the AIP?

Meanwhile, sharpshot, would be much obliged for hints or statement as to where this took place - I don't think you can get done for defamation of an airfield, and I'd like to be forewarned in case I am ever heading to the place myself!

SS,

Presumably he communicated with you on 122.60?

PULSE1
You've got your finger on it:D
Had to call someone to have a squint in Pooley's or what have you.

So, had any experiences yourself?

Aussie - you'll need a Jiffy Bag soon, not just an envelope to hold all the data!! Don't worry too much about CAT III for now - if you find it's that bad, you should have gone down the pub instead:D :D

SS,

Well it sounds the sort of place where someone is going to make you mad:D

No, I do not have any similar experiences to share but I am pleased that you shared this one. I learn such a lot from this sort of thread. The nearest I have come is too many people turning final just in front of me when I have already called final. This never happened to me until this year when I have had three of them, at White Waltham, Popham and Le Touquet. This is particularly annoying as I always tend to do tight circuits whenever possible.

Most of my other exciting moments have been self generated:(

P1

I know what you mean Pulse - it's just that ATC usually shove an A.321 in front of me and then remind me of the vortex spacing.......then tell me to hurry up or I'll be number three to a 757:D :D (Ended up doing 155kts to two and a half DME)

Flying a bit at a smaller place in the interim and getting used to following a Tomahawk when I'm trying to stay in the circuit and get the speed back is different........mind you ATC suggested he keep his circuit tighter in future, but if the guy was a low time PPL or student I'm happy to pace myself.

Tell you about another one that got my back up next week......;)

Just picked up on this thread and noticed the reference to Canada - the place where you have to know the range at which you can tell the difference between a moose and a reindeer. Might have been handy in this situation!

Personally, I'd have stopped at 45 deg to the grass with my hand on the throttle waiting to see where his roll out would end. But then I havn't seen the grass. (or the approach lights concealed in it)

Isn't there a turn off to a holding point and disused runway about a third of the way down the 06 runway - a possible option in the circumstances described?

The airfield has applied strict rules for based a/c to try and prevent this sort of behaviour and reputation - assuming I have the right place.

Well FFF,
I think your last Para says it all - doesn't it. It tells me that they obviously have a problem with the behaviour of some of their aeronautical brethren - perhaps "antics" would be a better description!

A disused part of an airfield is just that - I admit that I sometimes have difficulties with my mother tongue, regardless of accent, however, "disused" - suggests to me that I keep off that surface.

I see your point in mentioning it. However, despite calling the said frequency, no other aircraft was using it for any call let alone a standard one, i.e. a base leg or final call hence I landed short of aforementioned "disused" part, did 180 and reported backtracking.......then Mr. "I am" announced his prescence.

I'll leave it at that:p

FormationFoto

I just wanted to add a rider to my last - in a former life, I used to be an Airfield Ops Manager and having issued Notams about airfield conditions that used to either not be read - or ignored by pilots from PPL to and dare I say it, mainly ATPL holder's, one tries hard not to call the kettle black........or whatever the expression ought to be:(

SS
I am very familiar with the airfield in question but obviously can't comment on the particular incident - not being aware of all of the details.

For the benefit of others the operating procedure there when using the South westerly (which not all follow it is true) is to continue ahead to the intersection / 'C' hold then check approach clear before back tracking. In the event of not reaching 'C' hold before ready to back track a 90% turn to check approach clear then either continue the turn to backtrack (if clear) or return to original heading and clear at 'C'.
There is no requirement for radio calls to be made by all (and some are non radio) so radio silence can not be taken as an indication that the approach is clear.

There are adequate hard surface 'run offs' at either side of the runway if emergency avoidance is required but back tracking these whilst landing is in progress is not advised. There is also a long taxi way from the 'C' hold to a perimeter track which avoids the need to backtrack.

Not seen 50 ft ACROSS the runway at this location but 50 ft down the runway sometimes.

Aeros, unusual circuits, and formation activity often to be found but mostly not at the same time as visitors following more 'normal' procedures.

I have learnt - thanks largely to making mistakes - that if you want to do things differently it pays not to annoy people in the process.

I hope if you visit again you will get a more friendly welcome.

Are the operating procedures mentioned in the VFR plate for the field in the AIP?