Tailwheel tips anyone?
 

Does anyone have any words of wisdom on how to land a PA-18 (90hp, flapless) consistently without scaring oneself? :confused:

I have flown a number of tailwheel types, and am in current solo practice on various Jodels (D113 and D140). Generally I don't have any problems. Once they're down they stay down and swings are easy enough to correct with rudder.

The Cub, however, seemed unduly prone to bouncing (even when I thought I'd held off properly), and - worse - I found it very hard to correct a swing after landing. The rudder alone didn't seem to do much, and I found the heel brakes were very hard to operate and not very effective.

Any ideas?

Other than the landing problems, the Cub was fantastic. Flying at 70mph with the door open on a warm evening was one of the nicest aviation experiences I've had in a long time.:)

AF,

I have about 80 hours on the PA18, and of all the tail-draggers I've flown (PA18, Great Lakes, Pitts S2C and Europa mono-wheel) I found it by far the easiest. But I also have far more time on it than any of the others, so that may not be a fair comparison.

The most important thing for 3-pointers is that the stick must be all the way back - none of this set-the-attitude-and-hold-it stuff, you're going for a full-stall landing, or as close as possible. As with any 3-pointer, setting the correct speed over the threshold will make this easier, as you'll spend less time in the flare.

If you're bouncing wheel-landings, the only solution is practice - you have to recognise when the wheels are going to touch, and be ready to let the stick go slightly forward. The only way to do this is practice, practice, practice.

The swing is more of a problem. You really shouldn't need to use the brakes for directional control on the runway. There is nothing specific about the PA18 in this respect, as far as I know. One technique, for all tail-draggers, is the old cliche of dancing on the rudder pedals. I never really understood this until one instructor explained it as follows: use the rudders all the way to touch-down, even if you don't think you need to use them, keep using them anyway. Then, when you touch the ground, your brain already knows exactly how much response it can get out of the rudders, so there won't be the usual over-correcting which quite often happens.

If you're not doing wheel-landings, I suggest you get an good tail-dragger instructor and learn them. One common teaching technique for wheel-landings is fast-taxying, which will also teach you to control the swing. Apart from controlling the swing, and giving you more tools to use, learning wheel-landings will also help your general technique, for example you'll be better at controlling the aircraft during take-off especially once the tail-wheel is off the ground.

The only other thing I can suggest is to try a different PA18. I've flown 3 PA18s, and each one handles subtley differently, especially at low speeds and on the ground. If you try another one and find it easier, then there may be a problem with your particular aircraft. This wouldn't surprise me, especially what you said about not having the rudder authority to control the swing.

I agree, by the way - the PA18 is the favourite of all the aircraft I've flown so far! :D

FFF
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Hi FFF,

Thanks for the reply!

I was bouncing 3-pointers.... I thought the stick was all the way back, but it probably wasn't.

Funny what you say about the PA-18 being the easiest tail-dragger, because for me it was just the opposite. The Jodels, Citabria, Zlins, and Cap 10 were all OK, and even the Pitts S2A was OK apart from the visibility. (In the Pitts I find just holding a 3-point attitude then bringing the stick hard back on touchdown works). It's been a long time since I bounced as much as I did last Saturday in the Cub!

For holding straight after landing, again I've never had too much trouble in the other types. As you say, you need to be active on the rudder but on one of my worse attempts in the Cub (in a very gentle crosswind) we did an initial bounce and on the 2nd touchdown veered dramatically towards the edge of the runway. Rudder alone wasn't enough to correct it. (Nor was I, alone, enough to correct it! Luckily the instructor had quicker reactions.)

As for wheel-landings, I've only really tried them in the Jodel D140. It's big, easy to fly and quite easy to do wheel-landings in. It doesn't seem such a natural thing to do in the smaller types. I must do some practice.

Unfortunately I've only got access to the one Cub (and here it is, and here ). It did occur to me that the bungees may not be quite as they should, but it's more likely that it was me!:rolleyes:

That can't be a Super Cub. It's the wrong colour - Super Cubs are yellow! :D

Oh yes, and if it was you flying in the first picture, the tail-wind certainly won't help your landings! :eek:

There is no reason not to wheel-land a PA18, especially with an instructor behind you. In fact, it's the only safe way of getting it down in a descent, gusty crosswing, in my experience.

I wonder about your example of bouncing then veering across the runway... depending on how you bounced, is it possible that the bounce induced some roll or yaw, which caused you to not be straight on your second landing? I'd guess that, in recovering from the bounce, you may not have noticed the drift or yaw. I don't know, I'm just guessing here.

I've never flown any of the other types you've listed. The closest is my S2C vs your S2A, but since I only have an hour on type, I don't know it well enough to compare to the PA18. But I have been pax in a Cap10 a couple of times (thanks FNG!), and, if I remember correctly, the Cap10 doesn't land with the stick full-back. I'd try to concentrate on that the next time you fly.

The bungees are easy enough to check - I think it's about 3 screws which hold the covers on. But I don't think you'd get much of a mechanical bounce unless you were dropping in from quite high. I'd have thought that the aerodynamic bounce from landing main-wheels first is far more likely. When I mentioned mechanical problems, I was thinking more along the lines of the tail-wheel linkage not giving you enough tail-wheel authority. But, now I think about it, immediately after landing you'll have enough aerodynamic rudder control that tail-wheel authority isn't all that important, so scrap that one!

FFF
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I fly the 90-hp no-flaps Super Cub sometimes and have always found it one of the more docile taildraggers. If you are happy in the Pitts, I find it hard to believe that a properly rigged Cub would give you directional trouble and perhaps something is out of whack with it. The brakes are relatively ineffective but you shouldn't need them much for directional control on the roll-out.

I suggest that you ask for the undercarriage geometry to be checked out, as if this happened to me in a Cub I would suspect that the wheel alignment was wrong - perhaps too much toe-in (or insufficient toe out).The bounciness is hard to comment on without knowing something about the state of your strip. On grass I also find the Cub rather bouncy compared to the Pitts - perhaps because it is so light.

I fly a 150HP Super Cub, but often land it flapless. As the veteran of many bad landings and a couple of decent ones, here are my suggestions:

a) Check your approach speed. Too high an approach and over the hedge speed has been the most consistent reason for bad landings for me. It's a big fat wing that loves to float and float if you're a bit too fast and then you end up bouncing the landing.

b) Definitely stick full back for a 3-pointer. No, FULL back! No, more than that!

c) Try glancing out the side in the flare to get the perspective right.

d) You'll get used to the heel brakes and when you do you'll find them easy to use, quite intuitive and effective at preventing swings at the end of a crosswind roll-out.

e) To get feedback on this issue from 10,000 hour Super Cub pilots, post your queries in the Cafe Supercub folder at www.supercub.org

Puttering along with the door open at 500 feet or so is sublime. Welcome to cubbing.

QDM

FFF

It wasn't me (thankfully there was nobody with a camera!), but the strip is one-way so downwind landings are something that has to be lived with. Don't plan on trying it in the Cub for a while, though...

I suspect you're probably right about getting a bit of yaw or roll in the bounce, and that causing the dramatic lurch for the edge of the runway. On the landings that didn't bounce things were easier.

Lowtimer

I too thought that a Cub would be easy after a Pitts! Having said that, I've only landed a Pitts on grass and only landed the Cub on tarmac which possibly didn't help.

As you say, the brakes aren't up to much. The main problem was reaching them, however. The only way I could get a decent pressure on the pedal was to take my foot off the rudder...

QDM

60mph over the threshold. Stick full back? The trim spring was strong, so I think I goofed on the stick back bit...

As for the heel brakes, I hope you're right! It felt like either my legs were too long or my ankles too inflexible...

I'll have another go in a couple of weeks, and hopefully things will go better then.

Almost certainly too fast, I'd say, but it's obviously dependent on weight and the accuracy of your ASI. More like 50mph over the hedge. The experts will do it slower.

Trim it for the approach and you should easily be able to overcome trim forces to flare. Eat your spinach!

Like I say, the fellows at Supercub.org are the ones to talk to.

QDM

Once I get the hand of finding the trimmer by feel alone...!! There was at least 1 approach where I gave up and just because I needed my hand on the throttle instead of fumbling around for the trimmer.:rolleyes:

60mph didn't feel too fast - we didn't float for too long. The instructor and I are both starting our diets tomorrow.;) And the runway has a bit of a slope so you need enough speed to round out to a climbing attitude. Still, the instructor was fairly new to Cubbing so he might have had me approaching a bit faster than needed.

Thanks for the supercub.org link!

Just seen your post.
I have a PA18 -95, 60 MPH seems a bit fast it will float forever. Try 55 .The book says 42 for the stall speed, so 56 is plus a third. If you are at max weight or more I find that it can drop out the sky with a bump if you are too slow. I still have problems getting to the brakes, but easy enough on full rudder, when things are getting a bit squirrelly. Any large deviations to the left or right have been me being too slow to react or heavy on the rudder.
As the others say dancing on the rudder pedals helps, but you'll know that better than me with the other taildraggers.
The 95 is a nice aircraft, and pretty cheap to run, a really good way to hour build 'cos you 'aint goin anywhere quickly.

Enjoy

CC

Remember:-

Ah, just looked at the pictures. J'ai encore un tip, Monsieur: try grass. It's a lot, lot easier.

QDM

Talking of speeds, these fellows say 45mph is the speed for water-skiing, down even to 25mph:

http://www.supercub.org/phpBB2/viewt...hp?p=1935#1935

Do not try this at home.

:)

QDM

A.F :

You say you are flying with an instructor?

Why can't the instructor sort out your problem?:confused:

Cat Driver:

I used to have an L4, different I know but similar enough. As QDMx3 says the stick must be all the way back and then some. Speed is critical. If I landed the Cub at 55mph I'd do Tigger impersonations all the way down the runway. My touchdown speed was usually 45mph after an approach at 55mph and 50 over the hedge. It can be much slower with power and practice.

You can wind on full aft trim coming down the final approach but it takes a reasonable amount of forward push to keep the nose down until the flare but the aft trim helps to get the stick back when you're on the ground :D
Only trim aft once you are certain of a: reaching the field and b: are not going around though cos the pitch up with full power would be very "interesting". :eek:

I agree with the chaps above that if your speeds are OK you may have a problem with either the undercarriage rigging (try jacking it up and see if you can turn the leg to fuselage attachment bolts, if you can't they're bent) or maybe the rudder stops and/or tailwheel steering springs need adjusting to give more travel.

Those chaps doing the water skiing are bonkers :eek: :eek:

Chuck -
He probably can. However he's French and I'm not, and some of the finer points can sometimes get lost in the translation!

Rather than thinking 'landing attitude' and then waiting, which does work very well for Pitts and other buggarall-lift-winged types, try rounding out and then think 'prevent the landing' ie a classic hold off. You can't hurry or force the touchdown.....
If you aren't already, I would also try making glide approaches rather than long draggy powered ones. Whatever you do, resist the temptation to look at the ground under that invitingly open door ti try and judge height! Look ahead, middle dist. as before.
Also flaps are for girls:D
What bit of France are you flying in?

nonradio

I'm in the Alps. Glide approaches are a bit of a no-no, unfortunately, as go-arounds aren't possible at most sites and the glide approach limits your choices if you're a bit high. (Although the Cub seemed to slip very effectively).

Stick all the way back?
 

QDMx3,

I would be interested in some additional guidance on your "stick all the way back" point. On the PA-18-95 I fly, and trimming to 55 mph on final, even with no-one in the rear seat, I find that full back stick in the flare leads to a tailwheel-first arrival, before the mains, which seems a bit hard on the tailwheel.

I go for the exact three-point attitude, and bring the stick hard back only when I have touched down. Am I doing something different from you, or is it perhaps the case that your heavier engine means that the stick has to be all the way back for the three point attitude?

Regards,

AF: I had a feeling you were going to say the runway wasn't exactly level! All the more reason to look well ahead.
Forget the bungees - 'bouncing' is an aerodynamic effect and is entirely due to excessive sink rates on touchdown (insufficient holdoff) and mainwheels touching first, allowing inertia to move the tail down and hence increase the AoA and produce another takeoff. The effect would be the same if the u/c was solid or excessively squidgy. But then I'm sure you already knew that.....

Lowtimer,

All 3 of the PA18-150s which I've flown have definitely had to be 3-pointed with the stick as far back as it goes. If that's not case on your PA18-95, I can think of three possible reasons:

• As you say, the heavier engine may make a difference. Could someone else who flies a lower-powered Cub or Super Cub confirm how they 3-point their aircraft?
• The trim wheel works by moving the entire front part of the stabiliser. Therefore, if you're out of trim, it might be possible to generate the required amount of downforce from the stabiliser without having the stick as far back as would normally be required? It's too early in the morning for my brain to work out which way out of trim you'd need to be! I think this is unlikely, though - I'm sure I've landed PA18s out of trim once or twice ;) and not noticed any significant difference in the stick position
• Your aircraft is rigged in a strange way!

If it's the first, that means that the advice which myself and others have given to Aerobatic Flyer may not be correct, since he's not flying a 150hp aircraft :eek:

FFF
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I did have the occasional tailwheel first landing in the L4 with the 65hp engine but I put that down to bad driving and being too slow at the time causing the tail feathers to run out of lift before the mainplane. Normally I had full aft stick on for a 3 pointer at 45 mph. This is with my chunky (200lbs) self in the BACK seat cos it was a Cub rather than a Super Cub.