Lowtimer,

This obviously works very well for you, but the danger in general of bringing the stick hard back AFTER three-pointing is of increasing the angle of attack of the wing, thus increasing lift and causing one of those fifteen foot taildragger bounces.

You may be right -- it may well be the heavier engine which makes the difference. It is a much heavier aircraft and I think it does benefit greatly from the flaps for that reason.

QDM

QDM,

I'm not sure I agree. If you've got all three wheels on the ground, it's not going to possible to increase the angle of attack. The back of the aircraft can't go any lower (unless there's some "springiness" in the ground or the tailwheel, both of which should be negligable), and the nose won't go any higher because there's not enough lift - if there was you wouldn't have touched down in this attitude. Bringing the stick hard back after landing is the way I land my Europa every time - not doing so risks the tail being thrown back into the air by a bump on the runway.

The issue is whether bringing the stick all the way back before landing is necessary. In some types, doing so will result in a tail-first landing - not a real problem, but not pretty and not kind to the tail-wheel. In other types, not doing so will result in a main-wheel-first landing, which will be followed by an aerodynamic bounce as the center of gravity does what centres of gravity do and the angle of attack increases. In my experience, and that of most posters, Super Cubs will bounce unless the stick is hard back before landing - LowTimer is the only poster who hasn't found this to be the case.

FFF
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Guys

The tecnique for 3-pointing any tailwheeler is the same - hold of until all 3 wheels *just *above the ground and keep pulling back sufficiently that it doesn't land, but not enough to cause a climb. Eventually either you will run out of back stick and the aeroplane will settle genty on, 3 point. Or the wing will lose so much lift (not quite stalled, but very close) that despite further backward stick movement it sinks on in a 3-point.

If, at that point of touchdown, the stick is not already all the way back, pull it right back imeediatley and hold it there. The angle of attack cannot be further increased, becuase that would require the tail to rotate down - and being firmly on the ground, it can't. Kepp staright with rudder.

For a wheeler, check the descent in the level (tail-high) attitude, and allow the aeroplane to sink (a tiny bit of back stick just prior to the mains contacting may be required to cushion touchdown). As soon as the mains touch, ease the stick forward just enough to reduce the A of A and 'pin' the mains down. AS the aeroplane slows, keep straight with rudder (easier than in a 3-pointer, 'cause the speed is higher and the rudder is up in the slipstream). Gradually ease the stick further and further forward as you slow, to maintain the tail-high attitude. Eventually you will run out of forward stick and the tail will gently descend to the ground. In a Chippy with about 30 knots blowing down the strip you can come to a stand with the tail still up!

SSD

Agreed, SSD.

Is it not easy, though, when flying a type which will run out of lift before the stick is fully aft, to get into the habit of not having the stick fully aft until after landing? And is there not a temptation to then try to transfer this habit onto a different type, where it may not apply? This is what I think Aerobatic Flyer may be doing, and is why myself and others are encouraging him to ensure the stick really is fully back on a type which won't land any earlier than this.

FFF
---------------

Yes, quite so. A slip of the keyboard. ;) The danger of the technique is that if you do happen to land two wheels first and are in the habit of pulling the stick back AFTER you land you will be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Standard procedure in a wheel landing, of course, is to put the stick forward after touching to glue the mains on by decreasing angle of attack and so dumping lift.

QDM

3 pointers etc
 

AF
Maybe I've missed something but a couple of things are relevant
If you hold off at the right height, as you FEEL the aircraft start to sink, then pull the stick slowly back and you should aim to touch down with it on the back stop (not optional in my book)
The magic word is FEEL, don't get bogged down with technicalities !
You may land tailwheel first but only if you held off too high would it become an untidy arrival.
Tailwheel steering springs shouldn't be overlooked. Some wouldn't be out of place on an old bed, ie too soft or wrongly set up, so because the ground steering is too soft, this causes extra footwork.
Proper Scott tailwheel springs (the most common type) are only £15-£20 and are cheap maintenance with a worthwhile result.
TTH
:)

Them thar hills:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "Feel" the aircraft begin to sink?

Did you mean to say " See " the aircraft begin to sink?

Thanks: :)

Cat Driver:

The lower-powered Cubs have been mentioned by a couple of people. I've flown an L-4 (military J-3!) from a farm strip since 1989 -- and it still gives me the odd lesson in not paying full attention on landing. The PA-18 Super Cub is rather easier to land sans bounce, but either machine should be easy to steer during the rollout.

Two lessons from my past: worn-out Scott tailwheel steering arms plus 5 kt crosswind over tarmac runway equals groundloop; and properly rigged elevator equals tailwheel-first landings (when you have become used to not getting full up elevator!)

The tailwheel problem might not be apparent if you only fly from grass. Wear on the arms (hidden inside the circular steering body) allows the wheel to breakout at very low torque, or even castor freely.

Regarding the elevator rigging: I used to be able to sort of auto-land by feeding the stick back until it hit the rear stop, and we three-pointed. This almost eliminated any chance of a bounce. Tailwheel-first arrivals may be hard on the spring, but they are even less likely to result in a hop.

I, too, used to fly an L4. It has 'bungee' un-damped mainwheel springing, so is more prone to rough-field-induced bounces than, say, a Chippy which has oleos. I can well remember executing perfect 3-pointers, greased on, (by no means always!) only to end up suffering a series of small bounces caused by Barton's rough surface. They were quite benign, and the cure was to keep the stick hard back as the aeroplane slowed, and eventually they'd stop.

The L4 also had a lovely built-in A of A indicator - as you flare, just you reach the 3-point attitude, the lower door will rise up in the slipstream to the hrizointal position (I *always* flew with the dors open!).

SSD

It must be possible to 3 point, power off, without the stick fully aft since the stalling angle for a clean break, producing a nose down pitch, would require a much more tail low attitude, not to mention any ground effect; if this wasn't so, then landing would be a rather thrilling activity with wing drops, nose drops and other excessively exciting departures. Of course the machine is 'mushing' on, but in a controlled manner. Stick fully aft, given a slightly high roundout, will produce a tailwheel first arrival (how many Pitts' rudders have witness marks?). Certainly, the correct technique is to ease the stick back fully after touchdown to prevent skipping on bumpy surfaces, but not to yank back at the moment of touchdown since you may add to any bouncing tendency.
Back seat Cubs are easy to fly and land, but difficult to fly WELL - must be a good trainer, then!:D

nonradio,

The stall very close to the ground is completely different to the stall that you practice at altitude, due to ground effect. This is why you can 3-point some aircraft with the stick fully aft.

I wish I knew more about this subject, but I don't. Maybe someone else can fill in some details. Genghis? Anyone else?

FFF
----------------

FFF:Yep, the ground effect does make a difference in reducing the angle of attack but that can mean the machine needs a relatively short undercarriage rather than a long one. The landing attitude is less nose up for the same lift and drag that would apply at altitude, the opposite of what you've implied(?). I'm simply asserting that the stick need not necessarily be right on the back stop for a 3 pointer. For a given sink rate (approachin 0) and landing speed the weght of the machine will affect the angle of attack required which will in turn affect the landing attitude and stick position, all things being equal, since the flight path is essentially horizontal.

see or feel ??
 

Chuck E
I definitely mean "feel" the aircraft begin to sink. How else would you know when to squeeze the stick gently back ??
May feel a fairly firm landing rather than a greaser but the object is to dissipate energy in the hold-off so once down it stays down.
Trundling onto the ground with the stick somewhere aft, in the hope a 3 pointer may happen isn't how to get the right result.
This may work on smooth strips but bumps etc will almost certainly cause a bounce.
Short landings are something else entirely.
TTH

T.T.H. :

I am having difficulty with your description on how to land.

What do you mean by "feel" the airplane sink?

Do you mean pump the stick back and forth so the airplane sinks in jerky movements like it is going down a set of stairs? Or do you mean you "feel" the sinking sensation physically like with your eyes closed?

I am not trying to be difficult it is just that I do not understand your description regarding "feeling sink".

So please describe exactly how you determine when it is about to touch down.

Thanks. :confused:

Cat Driver:

I think what I do is wait until I have a gut feeling that I'm starting to sink, then gradually ease back to prevent that sinking feeling. I suspect this is where the word "feel" comes into play. But of course visual clues will probably provide most of the input to this gut "feeling". Perhaps this is where the confusion is???

FFF
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I think that Chuck is merely trying to confirm (tongue in cheek) that we all judge sink rates by looking out of the window and assessing perspective changes. Unless of course there are some people who really do use the 'force' or other such 'feeling':D

Nonradio:

Exactly. :D

Visual clues, or looking in the correct area ahead or ahead to the side is the "ONLY" way accurate height and sink judgement is possible.

The correct area to center your sight is at that point on the runway where apparent movement stops. ( that point ahead of you where the runway markings seem to lose their appearance of movement, this will vary in direct perportion to your speed. The higher your speed the further down the runway apparent movement will be.

The best method for identifying this apparent movement picture is to watch movies or videos of different airplanes landing, the faster the airplane the further ahead the runway movement picture will be.

By making this area the center of your sight line pheripheral vision will then fill in the correct height judgement skills.

Looking to close or to far ahead degrades your ability to accurately judge height.

There another good samaritan act on my behalf. :D :D

Cat Driver:

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.:D

SSD

For a wheeler.... AS the aeroplane slows, keep straight with rudder... Gradually ease the stick further and further forward as you slow, to maintain the tail-high attitude. Eventually you will run out of forward stick and the tail will gently descend to the ground.

One has to be careful on the ground with these beasts, especially when the airspeed over the control surfaces is not enough to hold the tail up. The same principle applies to the rudder, and more than one person has ended up in the dirt when a gust of wind has arrived from nowhere, and there is not enough airflow over a fully deflected rudder to keep the monster on the centreline.

Sometimes it might be sensible to smoothly bring the tail down yourself while you are carrying a little bit of speed. It still looks and feels good! Taildraggers are always waiting for that moment to let the pilot know he/she is not as smart as they think :)

Slim_Slag

I wouldn't recommend any try this unless they are very familiar with their aeroplane - you need to feel 'part of it'.

I only use the 'come to a stand with the tail still up' tecnique in very strong steady (non gustly) winds blowing straight down the runway. At ALL other times with 'wheelers' I'd lower the tail during the roll-out - but you have to do this with care of course; if done too soon (ie too fast an airspeed), the increase in A of A can get you airbourne again!

But I prefer 3-pointers if conditions permit ;~)

Also, the Chipmunk has excellent differential wheelbrakes. Once the airspeed is too low for effective flight control, the brakes will keep you on the centreline (but are rarely, if at all, needed other than for taxying) so long as you don't suffer from lazy feet - but that would be a problem for rudder control, as well.


SSD