iPad for flying
 

Hi all,

I'm looking into getting SkyDemon, and need a tablet to run it on. I can't quite weigh up whether or not they have GPS that will work at altitudes. I know the 4G ones have GLONASS, but as far as I'm aware, that requires a data signal too? Or am I wrong?

does anyone have any experience of this?

Thank you

T

I have a nexus 7 which runs pocket fms perfectly well. the built in gps works fine but with a high wing I find its better to get the fix before you get the plane as otherwise struggles to get one.


low wing is no problem at all

Excellent, I was looking in to getting an android tablet, but not sure if an iPad would be better suited for my other needs too.

IPad 4G (ie a cellular rather than wifi only model) has a fully functional GPS that works without any data signal/ground signal - ie it will show GPS position even if no SIM card installed.

But it is very expensive compared to perfectly viable Android options.

@rjtjrt - Thank you, I wasn't sure about it, but I think that's what I'll go for.

They are more expensive than Android, but they are very, very nice.

BUT why pay for 4g you don't need.???? unless you need phone network for other stuff


also nexus 7 or similar fits on your thigh if you don't want to cockpit mount it.


get what works, not what looks nice.

Camargue - My reason is because I'm impulsive and really, really, really stupid with money I don't have. I think I've settled on a Galaxy Tab 9.7", but still not certain

In a recent flight trip written up in the Pilot or Flyer one of the most impressive things using SkyDemon was filing a flight plan from the cockpit in the middle of Morocco after being refused take off clearance and told to taxi back and refile a VFR FP due to track request errors. Using the 4g connection and SD they refiled siting on the taxiway in less than 10 minutes. ATC very surprised that a new FP popped up on their system so quick.

So I would say to get the best out of SD or FMS an Ipad or Android with cellular and a good data package is a good idea. A separate GPS with dual system may be a good idea to cover GPS drop out as well.

Your 4g mobile phone has a GPS which can Bluetooth the Nexus if asked so there is your backup and cellular capability.

I've flown a fair few hours now with SD running on an Asus 7" tablet. Can't fault it. I've flown 7hrs on the battery alone and still had a fair bit left.
It's cheap enough to leave dedicated to SkyDemon.
ASUS MeMO Pad 7 inch Quad Core Android Tablet Intel Atom Z3745, 1GB, 16GB eMMC | Laptop Outlet, UK

I have just set up an iPad mini 4 cellular on a yolk mount. I have a lightning lead attached which goes to a cigarette lighter in the aircraft. The advantage of the cellular is that it has internal GPS. You can buy an external GPS to fit into the lightning socket but if you do that, you lose the ability to power the iPad. The external GPS costs the same as the extra for the cellular iPad so for me it is a no brainer. The nano SIM card allows you to connect to 4g and get up to date met, notams etc. You could also tether your smart phone to the iPad and get the same info. Coupled to Skydemon it is a great piece of kit.

I use an iPad mini clipped into a kneeboard and blue-toothed to a GNS 100 gps as it is a wifi only iPad. Works a treat with Skydemon. When I get a new iPad for Christmas it will be a cellular one and the GNS will be on eBay.

but android devices have gps built in anyway.
If I ever needed cellular capability (and admittedly the type of flying I do renders this very unlikely) I just tether to my phone.

Should work well on either of these.


http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/applicat...01&imgtype=jpg


http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/applicat...03&imgtype=jpg

This is a copy of what I have posted in the Pacific and General Aviation forum.

Something to think about. We go flying with our iPads fully charged and OzRunways doing its thing.

Last weekend the ground temperature was around 15 degrees and around 10 degrees at the level I was flying. iPad strapped to my right leg and the sun streaming through the window when a message appeared that the iPad was shutting off to cool down. Not the sort of thing you'd expect.

The iPad is known to overheat and shut down. It's by no means uncommon. Even here.

I think it is best to check the spec of any device as not all have in built GPS or cell phone. SD or FMS are not compute heavy programs so processor power is not a worry the screen and storage are I think are more critical even a cheap Chines will do the job and cost a third or less of an ipad. The yearly cost of phone/data and SD may exceed the tablet cost and its only a one off cost so even the extra of an ipad is not the biggest expense just some thoughts.

I'll admit I was I impressed with the filing of a flight plan from a taxiway at an airport in Morocco. But I'm going to be boring again. What happens when the damn thing packs up? it will. Also, when this lump of silicon decides to misbehave, which it will, who flies the plane when you do battle with wretched thing? These bloody bits of silicon are best left in your bag when VFR flying because too many PPL's have shown the world what happens when they fail. If you can't fly without one, you shouldn't be flying. So when you reply, "Oh, but I can!" Why do you need one?

PM

You use your already fired up standby one.

And in my case, when that packs up, you use the built in one.

Etc.

Around 70% of infringements are by pilots NOT using a GPS.

Have a backup by all means (paper map as well, of course) but today we need to know where we are like never before.

TOO

(Skydemon on 8" Tab 3. 8 hrs between charges and NO overheating. Backup Garmin 96. Backup to the backup current paper chart with line drawn on it)

The airlines are using Ipads / tablets for electronic library....i.e.no paper charts. OK they have a certain amount of info also contained within the FMS, but in reality rely on the two tablets ........if its good enough for them , then ???

I find it much easier to defend the use of GPS than defend a reluctance to use it.

Airlines do have iPads, but not for navigation. And if both of ours pack up as well as the internal systems fail, we will still be OK. DR still works OK. Also old fashioned Mk. I eyeball is still valid, like today with a visual approach. A/P, A/T, F/D off - as it should be. Not a drop of FMS, DME or anything else. Just old fashioned TLAR. A bit like being in a bug-smasher.

But if if you do use a bloody iPad, why bother with the actual nasty, expensive flying bit? Just send a damn drone up, programmed to follow a pre-programmed route, record what it flew over and replay it ad nauseum. Job done. You don't even have to leave home.

So if I get this right, iPads must be used by PPL's to avoid controlled airspace. Well if that is the case, I'll suggest that anybody infringing controlled airspace should be imprisoned, because they have no excuse. No wonder private flying is doomed. An own goal scored by incompetents.

PM

Hopefully you will come and visit us all in prison Piltdown. And yes, with us all in prison, GA will look pretty doomed.

Just whack the prison post code into your GPS and Bob's your Uncle. And don't turn up late for the visiting hours saying you got lost along the way. That would be equally incompetent.

I'll find the prison with a map thanks. I'll make sure I bring some snout as well, so you can pay the big boys not to mess about with you in the showers...

But seriously, flying in small aircraft should not be a gadget arms race. I can not see the additional pleasure gained in having to check version numbers of downloads, database validity dates, charge states and manufacturers' notices before comparing my GPS maps with the official 1/2 mil. charts. And then typing in waypoints, checking for airspace infringements and then doing all the things you have to do anyway.

Weather, NOTAMS, draw a line or two, plan (2-3 minutes max) weight & balance (rule of thumb), performance (rule of thumb) and fly... S M I L E as you enjoy the view out of the window. That is what flying is about. I certainly was when I did it both for pleasure and money.

And on the subject, a few months ago the CAA Enforcement Branch asked for input regarding possible new punishments for airspace infringements. They were suggesting unlimited fines and imprisonment as a way of deterring people. My submission to them was that this would make no difference as these were non-intentional violations and draconian punishments would have little effect on infringements. Maybe I was naive. In my mind's eye I was imagining a well trained PPL with map, compass and stopwatch getting his numbers wrong. A genuine mistake. But you lot telling me that you are whizzing around the sky relying in silicon to keep you out of trouble. It sounds like it won't be long before 100% of violations are made by pilots who should their current and expected positions to within plus/minus 10 meters. Then what excuse will you have? You weren't trained? Database error? Incompetence?

Keep smiling.

PM

The infringements data seems to indicate that it is guys without GPS or digital planning tool of any kind who are vastly more likely to infringe. Imagine a scenario where a pilot gets all his carefully drawn lines on his paper chart (just as he was trained to do), and flies his plan exactly right - but oh no! he is using a paper chart where every AIRAC amendment and NOTAM has not been carefully annotated since the chart was published, and his perfectly planned route flies straight through airspace he was unaware of.


Furthermore, having GPS on board can be a godsend when accused of infringing; I have heard a number of instances where a controller has insisted CA has been breached and subsequently started "the process" for raking the pilot over the coals - but then the pilot produces his track logs and can demonstrate exactly how well outside the zone he was. Without GPS you have pretty much no right of reply when accused of infringement, and no warnings popping up to notify you before the infringement happens, so infringement is more likely.


The times GPS is not so helpful is when the pilot doesn't understand how to set the warnings appropriately, when he doesn't update the aeronautical data, and when he doesn't appreciate the nature of GPS error and the conditions under which GPS functions sub-optimally. This could be remedied by a few hours briefing as part of the PPL syllabus - GPS is a tool, not a magical anti-infringements device, and we need to make sure that the benefits and limitations of the tool are well understood to optimise its effectiveness.

Bobby, you make your point well but the limiting factor will always be the integrity inherent in such a device. To boldly go where the device says it is OK is not the solution, especially since such devices do not normally display their current accuracy status. Nor do I reckon RAIM status is checked before flight. Without knowing that status, you cannot prove where you have been key alone use it to drive you to where you want to be. But to be honest, I think we will be splitting hairs forever.

I used to take pleasure in navigation, both in teaching and application. I used to think it a worthwhile skill. But you lot don't and it appears that I'm in a minority of one here. You are obviously armed with multiple GPS systems with moving maps, know the seconds to go to each waypoint etc. So if you people get pleasure from following a bloody iPad around the circuit - knock yourselves out!

PM

This is what I posted on the SkyDemon thread:

The statistics say you are much less likely to end up where you shouldn’t be if you have some sort of GPS-driven map. If you want to be a purist, keep it under a cover and only look at it if it gives you a warning. I agree with others in this thread that deliberately shunning a navigational aid that could have prevented an infringement is not likely to generate much sympathy from the CAA or the judicial system. Yes, it’s legal, yes, given care and attention you can navigate with reasonable precision using “old” methods. But is it sensible and is it fair to other airspace users who one day you may unwittingly come into close proximity to?

Soon we will be having this discussion over electronic conspicuity. It’s one thing to defend our freedom to fly and quite another to defend endangering others...

Well, slightly going off topic here haha.

I've got a new Galaxy Tab 8" arriving today hopefully.

Even by the standards of pprune, this thread smacks of childishness.

Almost every rotary pilot I know draws a line on a chart AND uses a moving map as confirmation. It is never either or. If you really think that the joy of flying is purely about navigation as opposed to being in the air then we really are doomed.

My partner has just achieved her PPL and still uses a map and compass. Very good she is too. BUT it isnt foolproof as we all know and as she cant spell GPS (it being banned for training) when it goes wrong.......

We need to wake up and accept infringements arent a joke; they are dangerous, costly and risk a criminal record. Anyone, especially a commercial pilot, who deprecates the use of GPS is potentially putting people in harms way. GPS needs to be part of the basic PPL sylabus as an ADDITION to a paper chart

I don't think anyone is suggesting that stopwatch and chicken bone nav is the only way it should be done. But, it should be learned first.
If a student is being taught both at the same time they will obviously take the line of least resistance and pay less attention to the old method, degenerating over the years as less and less to the point of none at all, then the skill is lost forever.
I once watched a student pilot place the protractor on a paper chart with the North pointer facing East. Easily done if you have no conception of where north is or how many degrees there are round the planet.

That is exactly what Piltdown Man is suggesting

for what its worth, i have an ipad2, the type that you can put a phone sim card in, i believe it is called pseudo-gps, it works out its position from telephone masts, works well with a memory map half mill chart until you get into darkest west wales where it seems to be a bit short of masts.

Piltdown,

Where in this thread have people said they are dispensing with traditional methods in favour of relying solely on GPS?

And where is it claimed that we are using GPS to navigate ourselves around a circuit pattern?

Because I don't see any of that and nor would I expect to.

What I do see is a sensible approach being portrayed to enhance safety by the additional use of modern technology. Just because I use GPS doesn't mean I suddenly turn up 20 mins before departure and willingly ignore the MET Office, Notams, Plogs, max drift calcs, fuel burn and all the potential hazards along the route.

Airspace busts for us can have very serious consequences not just primarily to safety, but also to our licensing and wallet. Anything over and above that which mitigates those risks down needs to be looked at and if valuable, applied. And GPS fits that. The CAA themselves endorse. I have sat through their safety briefs on infringements and listened to them tell us about available options including GPS.

The only time I want tea and biscuits at Gatwick is when I go on holiday and not as an invitation to the CAA to explain myself.

Having used both I would never touch another iPad, twice the money to do half as much!

Piltdown, are you telling us that you check the chart changes and annotate your CAA chart before every flight (for a year, till the next one is published)? If so, you are the only pilot I've ever heard of having the time to do so without fail.

Aviation applications now in common use do it for you. I've just switched on my mini Ipad and entered a pre-planned a route via Skydemon. Before it let me in it told me there were updated charts available and it has just downloaded them for me (UK, France, Ireland). It does so on a very regular basis and takes a few seconds; faster than I could access the CAA website to even begin looking for their latest chart changes, let alone start looking up lat/longs and plotting them.

Flying at ultra low level and putting troops on the ground within a 15 second "window" and teaching others how to do it used to be my "bread and butter" job, for almost twenty years. All done in the very early part of my career without GPS or Navaids of any sort. So I know how to do it as well as anyone. But it was almost half a century ago, ancient technology, all in the past. We progress and move on. The aircraft I fly now has twin GPS, terrain warning, TCAS. I plan my flights on the ground using an Ipad and Google Earth to find waypoint and landing site co-ordinates then fly using the chart portrayed on the aircraft's GPS units. Obviously, pilots need to know how to navigate using a chart and stop watch. But on every flight? Not these days. As the military still say "Why practice bleeding?"

Seen these? FAA approved

https://www.guardianavionics.com/ipa...e-panel-mounts

ShyTorque - I used to keep my charts up to date as best I could and you are right, I missed many things. But as I said, I'm in a minority of one here. I also have not held a valid PPL for years and you guys have done a fantastic job in persuading me that it is not worth resurrecting the thing. The spontenatey of aviation appears to have gone, damaged it appears by the punitive action taken by the CAA when dealing with airspace infringers. Therefore, please ignore my previous posts - I appear to be a relic from the past.

PM

Appologies to tobster911 for thread drift and sidetrack.

Now is someone going to help the guy now you have said how essential these things are?

PM