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9 lives 10th September 2016 01:25

Practice your emergencies regularly!
 
I am reminded that we can fall behind in our emergency skills. Two friends of mine were flying together, and the engine failure they had did not end well. Between the two of them, I estimate their total flying experience would exceed 10,000 hours in GA aircraft. One of then I have known as a pilot for more than 30 years. I don't know which of them was actually flying, but whomever, tried a turn back after an EFATO. It ended poorly, they are both in hospital with fractured spines, and in a world of hurt. The plane, which was a showpiece, is very badly damaged. I know the airport well, it is surrounded with gently rolling crop fields, a forced landing ahead would probably be damage free fore that aircraft, if flown on well.

I have yet to speak to either of them, but did receive an update on their condition from another multi thousand hour pilot friend who also tried a turnback a few years back, and broke his back in the resulting accident.

I would never have expected any of these fellows to be involved in an accident, much less hurt themselves trying a turnback. I reminded myself to be more careful yesterday and today while flying, and I practiced a few power off landings to the surface, just to be sure (though I practice regularly anyway).

So keep your skills sharp, and recent! Regular forced landing practice to the surface!

India Four Two 10th September 2016 05:21

ST,

Sorry to hear about your friends.

I absolutely agree with your comment:

Regular forced landing practice to the surface!
I frequently fly a 265 HP C182 tow-plane and most days I try at least one glide approach from downwind, abeam the threshold. It's a stark reminder of how poor the glide ratio is, even with flaps up.

Glider pilots make glide approaches all the time of course, but the last part of the pre-takeoff check in Canada is Options - "Where will I go if the rope breaks or the tow-plane has a problem during the launch?"

This paid off for one of my club's pilots last week. He was doing a "passenger ride", flying from the back seat of a DG-1000. After takeoff at about 200' AGL, the audio variometer volume was overwhelmingly loud, so he asked his passenger to “flick the little switch on the control column” (which changes the vario setting in the DG-1000). The passenger asked if the pilot had meant the “yellow” knob?). The pilot misunderstood and heard“little”, not “yellow” and said “yes”. The passenger then pulled the release.

So from 250', the pilot made a perfect landing in a field with no damage to the glider. It was retrieved and after a de-brief with all concerned, the passenger went for another flight. :ok:

Of course, there has been a lot of analysis of what happened and the SOPs concerning passenger flying have been revised.

However, there was a large amount of luck in this incident. Of our four runways, only two have good landout options. If this launch had been on one of the other two, the outcome might have only been a "good" landing, rather than an "excellent" one.

TimGriff6 10th September 2016 08:07

Thanks for the reminder. It is indeed important to practice the drills. I have a problem in that I have no way of practicing the initial decision making - has anyone got any advice on that?

To expand a little, I have had one emergency when all of my focus was on keeping the aircraft flying until I could sort out the problem and deal with it. At no time did I contemplate putting the aircraft down on the ground. In training, someone says 'engine failure, forced landing' and you go from there. As I see it happening in real life, the first thing that you have to do before putting emergency landing training into practice is to decide that you are going to put this very nice aircraft onto the ground away from an airfield. How do you make that decision correctly?

Gertrude the Wombat 10th September 2016 09:05


As I see it happening in real life, the first thing that you have to do before putting emergency landing training into practice is to decide that you are going to put this very nice aircraft onto the ground away from an airfield. How do you make that decision correctly?
My one partial engine failure, the instructor took control, told me where was aiming for, sorted out the glide. Then we both started checking for what was wrong, and found it and fixed it. All exactly as per text book and training, and it all worked fine, and it was over in tens of seconds.

9 lives 10th September 2016 14:59


I have a problem in that I have no way of practicing the initial decision making - has anyone got any advice on that?
What an excellent observation, and question!

This is a woefully overlooked element in pilot decision making training. It's the "fight or flee" decision making process, flight to continue to fly it, or flee to the ground, essentially giving up the flight to keep flying. The possible availability of a BRS adds a whole other element to that, however, the scope of this discussion is an emergency at a low enough that a BRS would not be of much use anyway.

I have had a total of six engine failures/major power losses during my flying, with three being EFATO. In all cases, I was able to land the aircraft ahead, in a place from which a later takeoff was possible - lucky me! But the "fly the plane" element remains vital in any case. A mentor of mine once told me: "point the plane at a place you think you could crash, then don't crash when you get there.".

The decision making as to "just land it ahead", or cause check and search for a good spot, will be based largely on the length of time available to you to glide to your short final approach, and arrive there with suitable speed for a power off flare and landing. In most power planes, and EFATO at less than 500 feet means that the time to do anything before committing to a landing ahead will be near zero - push the nose down, and land it.

In my considered opinion, pilot training and mentoring spends too much time teaching cause checks, looking for a good spot, and flying something like a circuit around it, without actually landing on it. Looking for a good forced approach spot should not be something you begin to do when it all goes silent, it should be something you are always doing if you're not watching for traffic, checking your position relative to the chart, or checking that all systems are operating normally. Looking for a spot should be a part of your regular flying scan.

Cuase checks? Yeah, perhaps you have forgotten to change tanks - easy fix. Cause check things like that before the engine stops, rather than after! Do cause checks throughout your flying as a part of the aforementioned "checking that all systems are operating normally". If the engine has stopped due to something like an oil failure (pressure/pump/quantity, you're gliding. Similarly with total fuel exhaustion, or total ignition failure. Very few failures can be fixed right after they have occurred. Carb heat/alternate air would be one of the few things you could do after the fact. That said, one trick I once used during an engine failure at night was the use of the primer. I had had ice crystals in the fuel (before I learned to use alcohol), and the fuel flow was interrupted. As I glided down in darkness from 6000 fee, I ran (sort of) the engine by pumping the primer, and that ran it enough, that between carb heat, and the rapidly changing power settings, the obstruction cleared, and I was able to continue. The benefits of cruising at higher altitudes!

But, EFATO, decide to land ahead with no delay. Maybe you have time for a quick cause check, but probably not, and don't surrender any opportunity to keep flying the plane to cause check.

Practice forced landings to the surface, and to touchdown. Pilots get too little opportunity to practice being in the flare, and making the best of a less than ideal approach, a practice forced landing is a good opportunity - don't pass it up! Sure, the instructor once a year will pull the power back on you during a check ride, and you'll find a perfect field off near the horizon select some key points, and spend a lot of time head in, reviewing systems. At 150 AGL you'll get the word to go around. What a wasted opportunity! Land the plane!

Now, of course this means that practicing to a suitable runway would be a good idea - do that! Sometimes the airport is quiet, ask the tower if you can fly some practice forced approaches, with no circuit dimension restrictions - they might say yes. In July I did this twice while mentoring a fellow pilot. At both Osijek, Croatia, and Bergen Norway, the airport was quiet when we arrived. May we do some PFA's please? Yes. My we fly a non standard circuit please? Yes. I had my charge fly some PFA's from a very tight downwind, about over the tower, to a mid runway touchdown. After about ten of these, he was catching on well. It required a full side slip through 180 degrees of heading, with extending flaps on the way down to dump the altitude, but with a bit of practice, he was within a hundred feet or so of the aim point selected during the base element of the approach. Later, with that skill, we flew another dozen or so onto the ocean in a fjord (it was an amphibian).

I have only once in recent memory flown a PFA which was a planned overshoot, and that was in the Cub, as it was a farmer's field, which I did not know well, and the exercise was to position the aircraft to the flare in between some obstructions, so the landing was not the focus. Otherwise, If I state it's a PFA to my charge, it'll be to the surface.

The decision in a light single should be to put it down, unless you have thousands of feet of altitude to play with. There is too much risk of turning a "makeable" forced landing into a crash, because fiddling around distracted you away from simply flying well. But all the practicing you're going to do will show you how much of your attention can be diverted from flying during a glide to a landing - not as much as you thought!

3wheels 10th September 2016 22:52

Sorry to her about your friends Step.

Still I read on here people advocating turn backs.

And watching a Cirrus instructor frequently teaching them just makes my hair stand on end, especially when the "student" gets it wrong as happens frequently.

Jonzarno 11th September 2016 07:12


And watching a Cirrus instructor frequently teaching them just makes my hair stand on end
As a Cirrus pilot myself, it would make my hair stand on end as well. Is this instructor an official CSIP (Cirrus Standardised Instructor Program) instructor? Standard EFATO practice in a Cirrus is:

Below 500 feet AGL: land as near straight ahead as possible
Between 500 and 2000: deploy CAPS immediately
Above 2000: consider CAPS and deploy if a safe landing is not assured

TimGriff6 11th September 2016 07:52

Thanks for that ST. Just to clarify, I have no problem if it goes quiet - the only way is down. The problem would be if it goes a bit (or a lot) lumpy. Taking the original post as an example, if I am climbing away but speed is decaying, climb rate is reducing or reversing slightly and the engine is still running, perhaps roughly, what would I do? I'd like to think that I would do what I was taught - pick the landing spot and trim etc to go down towards it before dealing with the problem. However, and from my experience, if I can keep the aircraft roughly level and above the stall, that becomes more of a difficult decision to make and I think that there is a natural temptation to keep going as long as you can. One to practice in your head perhaps and have some sort of QR flow chart in there to fall back on?

Centaurus 11th September 2016 08:13

There are some excellent GA flight training devices around and many flying schools have one for instrument flying practice and generally these have quite realistic visuals. It is safer to practice engine failures on take off using one of these devices. Do it from various altitudes. No risks, no insurance problems and keeps you current against the inevitable dangers associated with practicing engine failures and practice forced landings in the real aircraft.

I think the buzz word is called "Risk Mitigation."

Pace 11th September 2016 10:09

The only relevant bit of a forced landing is the landing
If it's an engine failure at 2000 feet or 200 feet makes little difference
Too much is made of selecting a landing field from a 2000 foot cut
The main things are to keep flying don't fixate on one course of action and be prepared to change if things are not looking good
The field left or right which is too short with a fence and crosswind is better than landing short into trees or buildings on the path to your so carefully selected field at 2000 feet which may look very different when your down at 200

3wheels 11th September 2016 22:05


And watching a Cirrus instructor frequently teaching them just makes my hair stand on end
As a Cirrus pilot myself, it would make my hair stand on end as well. Is this instructor an official CSIP (Cirrus Standardised Instructor Program) instructor? Standard EFATO practice in a Cirrus is:
I cannot see it on his website....but may have missed it.

Where are they published?

foxmoth 11th September 2016 23:11


And watching a Cirrus instructor frequently teaching them just makes my hair stand on end, especially when the "student" gets it wrong as happens frequently
Actually part of the point of training this is to show how hard it is and so a very much last resort manouvre

rjtjrt 11th September 2016 23:39

Post 8

........The problem would be if it goes a bit (or a lot) lumpy. Taking the original post as an example, if I am climbing away but speed is decaying, climb rate is reducing or reversing slightly and the engine is still running, perhaps roughly, what would I do? I'd like to think that I would do what I was taught - pick the landing spot and trim etc to go down towards it before dealing with the problem. However, and from my experience, if I can keep the aircraft roughly level and above the stall, that becomes more of a difficult decision to make and I think that there is a natural temptation to keep going as long as you can. One to practice in your head perhaps and have some sort of QR flow chart in there to fall back on?
That is the one that really concerns me. It seems to be the scenario that is most lethal.
The only thing I can see as a solution is to recognise it is "sucker trap", especially on take off, and be very cautious about getting sucked in and trying to fly around the circuit to land.

Pilot DAR 12th September 2016 01:05

One of the things I have been taught is that once you believe you should perform a power off forced landing, it is best to commit to that, and don't change a decent plan. It's difficult to think that you are about to risk an off airport landing in a "good" plane, but committing to that may save your life. It has happened that a Pilot has been gliding down to a reasonable prospect of a landing, to have the engine momentarily spark to life. They have changed their plan to attempt a continued flight. Then the engine quits for good, and their possible landing is no longer possible, and there is no new plan. Some instructors teach that once you have decided to glide down, pull the mixture, to be sure it stays quit, and you continue to the planned landing.

mary meagher 12th September 2016 08:05

EFATO? best training for this event.....
 
Book a day's training at a gliding club with a WINCH launching system.
And ask for launch failure training.

This is the closest you can get to EFATO, and excellent practice.

In a winch launch, the glider pilot rotates carefully into the full climb, at no point being unhappy were the cable to break exactly then. A low cable break is rather approximate to an engine failure after takeoff...the only correct response is

1. LOWER THE NOSE

2. LAND STRAIGHT AHEAD

no brainer.

A high cable break,

1. LOWER THE NOSE.

2. DO NOT TURN UNTIL CORRECT AIRSPEED IS INDICATED ON THE ASI.

3. JOIN THE CIRCUIT, OR IF YOU CONTACT A THERMAL, SOAR AWAY!

but a medium height cable break...and this does depend on wind strength and direction....

1. LOWER THE NOSE! ! ! ! !

2. TURN AWAY FROM THE WIND DIRECTION (this must have been decided before takeoff) and you will find yourself nicely set up for a normal circuit and approach....possibly briefer than normal . This works fine for gliders, but power -- probably wouldn't work because your engine dead glide ratio is probably about 12 to one. So land ahead.

But in a glider, it's more like 30 to one, so time enough for a normal circuit.

All the same, the experience is valuable, and no glider pilot gets worried when on a check ride in a power plane the instructor cuts the power low down and asks what are you going to do now? easy!

1. LOWER THE NOSE

2. LAND AHEAD

if you are over 2,000 feet already, you may have enough energy at 12 to one to land back (consider a downwind landing if the wind is light) and any higher than that, you have time to monkey around with the sputtering donkey and do your radio distress calls....which wouldn't help in a real emergency anyway.

As to chosing a field, forget worrying about that. As I mentioned on the sticky, the field choses you; if you control the aircraft you will walk away...aircraft have landed on top of houses, hangars, trees, hedges. The plane now belongs to the insurance company, so let them worry about it.
You will not be injured if you have arrived under control!

Don't know about landing on roads...depends on the traffic....

The Ancient Geek 12th September 2016 09:16

Another tip - if you have a VP prop pull the blue knob all the way out to extend the glide and then use it as a nice controllable airbrake as you approach your chosen landing spot.

VP-F__ 13th September 2016 02:10

I am lucky enough to fly from a very quiet airfield and usually have no other traffic to deal with which can provide a degree of freedom. Bearing in mind the well founded advice to not turn back in the event of an engine failure I experimented a little.

The important thing to remember here is that it was a simulated failure, with just myself onboard and I knew what I was planning to do......very different to an unplanned real emergency when the mind does not necessarily work in the way that you might wish.

The runway is 900m and I had a 20kt wind at 30° off the runway heading giving a 10kt crosswind from the left. I was in my own standard Cessna 172. I carried out a normal takeoff and climbed straight ahead to 700ft before closing the throttle. I immediately lowered the nose to maintained 65kts and turned left with a 30° bank onto the runway recipricol and allowed the wind to push me across the center line and when just short of being abeam the numbers I turned right and landed. I landed on the numbers.....had I turned earlier I could have landed deeper.

This obviously has to be flown accurately, using too much bank or getting too slow will easily see precious height vanish but it was an interesting exercise to try. I have since tried it in different winds and seen two other pilots (one a commercial high skilled light twin stol pilot, the other a 400 hour ppl with next to no stol experience) who both managed it.

As with any manouver practice makes perfect and this was an interesting exercise in seeing what was possible.

n5296s 13th September 2016 06:53

Oh no, not the impossible turn topic. You'll be lucky to survive this (the topic, not the turn). I posted something about trying it a couple of years ago and was lucky to escape with my life (again, the post, not the flying).

Theory says a 45 degree bank is optimal. I did it successfully down to 500 AGL using a 45 degree bank but flying about 10 knots faster than optimum (which is JUST above the accelerated stall speed).

Subsequently I tried it at altitude flying at the optimal speed and concluded that it SHOULD be possible from 400 feet as long as you keep the speed and bank angle under tight control. But that doesn't mean I'm prepared to try it for real.

One interesting thing I found is that the altitude loss in the 270 degree turn at stall+10 is the SAME as at stall-5. At the latter speed the aircraft is REALLY telling you how unhappy it is, but nothing bad happens (in my TR182 - I can't speak for any other type or even aircraft). In other words if you do try to fly it optimally you won't just crash and burn because you get a couple of knots slow. Assuming you recognise the stall symptoms of course.

Not recommending anyone go fly this thing - common sense says that if you haven't practised it, land straight ahead. And even if you have unless the only thing you can find straight ahead (or close to it) is schools, kitten farms etc.

foxmoth 13th September 2016 08:49


climbed straight ahead to 700ft
Why? At most airfields you would be turning at 500' anyway.:confused:

9 lives 13th September 2016 11:43


Oh no, not the impossible turn topic. You'll be lucky to survive this (the topic, not the turn)
It's not about how you handle the emergency, it's about practicing for it, and if it happens, flying what you practiced. If your flight profile enables a turn back, and you're practiced at when you can enter, and make around and back safely, then that is what you've practiced - good for you! There are certainly times when the turn back is my emergency plan, I'll circle up after takeoff from a lake, plotting the point at which I could make it back if I had to, as there is just no where else good to go. It' all about the practice!

rusty sparrow 13th September 2016 14:30

Re Mary Meagher '1. LOWER THE NOSE'. My several hundred winch flights years ago instilled that reflex in me which was very useful when the engine failed in a Jodel D9, a small aircraft with little inertia. Also, the feel of the glider at a flyable airspeed - you're spending all the time looking outside when a cable breaks. Flying by the feel, not the numbers.

mary meagher 13th September 2016 18:16

Thank you, Rusty Sparrow! I'm afraid our American Cousins don't have very many nearby winch gliding clubs, clearly your winch experience was helpful when the Jodel engine failed. British power pilots, contact the British Gliding Association to find the winch launch club near you...you will be pleasantly surprised at the relatively low cost of this experience. And you will be a safer pilot, guaranteed.

And Sparrow, your point about looking outside...alas, most power pilots are more entranced by the array of instruments on the panel. I was very surprised flying a Warrior, when nearly meeting opposing traffic in the US. I saw him, he never saw me at all, and probably just as well, as I dived away just in time - before that I was talking to my passenger, and the other plane was hiding behind the doorpost. Surprise!

Gertrude the Wombat 13th September 2016 19:07


British power pilots, contact the British Gliding Association to find the winch launch club near you...you will be pleasantly surprised at the relatively low cost of this experience.
My very limited experience - some of us from a power club visited a gliding club for an evening - is that that there was no "relatively low cost". We spent an entire evening at the field - interesting in itself, and fine on the occasion as I had nothing else to do that night - in order to spend just a few minutes in the air at a cost per minute that was not noticeably different to powered flying.

...alas, most power pilots are more entranced by the array of instruments on the panel
Ah well, at least for my few minutes in a glider I was actually looking out of the window - I never even noticed whether it had anything much in the way of instruments (apart from the piece of wool)!

Big Pistons Forever 14th September 2016 01:37

The best way to deal with an engine failure is to not have the engine fail in the first place. Around 80 % of engine failures in light single engine aircraft are caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot.

It is the boring unsexy cockpit and flight disciplines of a good pilot that will likely prevent the requirement to do the hero aviating.....

With respect to the EFATO, yes, nose down immediately has to be the automatic response. I get my students to call out the immediate action drills for engine failure before every takeoff. This always started with
"stick forward" and I wanted the student to physically move the wheel/stick forward to build that automatic muscle memory.

With respect the turn back....well AOPA did a review of EFATO fatals and determined that you were 8 times more likely to have fataliies if the aircraft was turned back to the runway below 1000 feet AGL, over taking your lumps straight ahead

9 lives 14th September 2016 03:38

Since my first post, I have come to understand the cause of the engine failure my friends suffered. The details are not mine to discuss, other than to say it was entirely not pilot caused. So, they were two skilled pilots suddenly in a difficult position not of their making. For whatever reason (I have not spoken with them yet) they did not make the best of a forced landing opportunity which lay ahead of them. I know that airport well, and I am confident that I could put that plane onto a nearby field, more or less ahead, possibly with little damage, but confidently with no injuries - as long as I followed my practiced skills.

That said, in general, I do agree with BPF, avoid causing your own engine failure with prior application of your skill and planning!

I'm not a fan of the turnback. I have personally assisted in lifting the remains of two friends of mine who have both attempted very tight turns back onto the same runway at my local airport. They were both more experienced pilots than I. If they could not accomplish the maneuver, I should not attempt it - they taught me a memorable lesson.

So I practice PFL's to the surface, both land and water, regularly in most of the aircraft I fly.

piperboy84 14th September 2016 06:29

The Ancient Geek

Another tip - if you have a VP prop pull the blue knob all the way out to extend the glide and then use it as a nice controllable airbrake as you approach your chosen landing spot.
I may be wrong on this and please correct me if I am, but wouldn't a VP prop be "off the governor" in an EFATO situation and be forced into a fully fine pitch due to both lack of oil pressure and centrifugal force so attempting to move it to a course pitch for better glide performance would not be an available option?

The Ancient Geek 14th September 2016 08:12

It depends. In most cases the prop will be windmilling and driving the engine so there will be oil pressure. Try it by pulling the mixture, it makes a big difference to your glide range.
OTOH if the engine has suffered catastrophic damage such a a broken crank all bets are off, it might be jammed solid or have lost its oil.

londonblue 14th September 2016 08:20

Out of interest, whilst on a flight are you able/allowed to practice, for example, a forced landing? If you are, how do you do this safely? Do you have to tell ATC what you're doing? Do you actually declare a "practice pan"?

I'm fully aware that I need to practice these more, but am never sure about the practicalities.

oggers 14th September 2016 08:32


I may be wrong on this and please correct me if I am, but wouldn't a VP prop be "off the governor" in an EFATO situation and be forced into a fully fine pitch due to both lack of oil pressure
Other way round. Oil pressure = fine, spring pressure = coarse. Otherwise it wouldn't feather after eng fail. Though I think there are exceptions to this general rule.

The Ancient Geek 14th September 2016 09:04

The prop governor does not know what is turning the engine, it only knows that the revs are dropping so it fines the pitch to keep the revs constant. By pulling the pitch lever you reduce the rpm demand and feather the prop but it can never fully feather because the only source of rpm is the windmilling prop.
A fully feathering prop as fitted to bigger twins has a special oil pressure reservoir to drive the prop to the fully feathered zero rpm position.

9 lives 14th September 2016 11:54

Different CS props have different operating characteristics, and the pilot should have some awareness. In short, if the prop/engine are still turning (powered or windmilling), the pilot should expect to have control of RPM, and may (and should) select full coarse/low RPM if a power off forced landing is committed.

The only reason to not select coarse pitch, would be if the pilot wants the drag of the fine pitch windmilling prop to assist in a steep descent into the "spot". In that case, the pilot should have practiced how the plane glides and flares that way.

I have recently changed propellers, and the new one is much more draggy than the one I replaced. I have experimented with glides in coarse, and doing that makes a great difference in how the plane handles in a glide. In coarse, I "get back" about 600 FPM descent rate compared to fine pitch. While experimenting, I did move the mixture to ICO, and mags off, no change in propeller operation. I was still flying a "turning" engine though - seized would be a different story.

Note that some feathering propellers cannot be feathered at RPM slower than around 1000. This means that if you're going to feather it, get it done before the engine coasts to a stop. Some feathering propeller systems have unfeathering accumulators to provide the oil pressure required to move the blades toward fine pitch for an inflight restart. Starting a feathered engine in flight is messy.


whilst on a flight are you able/allowed to practice, for example, a forced landing? If you are, how do you do this safely? Do you have to tell ATC what you're doing?
As often as air traffic seems to permit, ask ATC if you can fly a circuit which will include a practice forced approach. Otherwise, fly to a quite, uncontrolled airport where you have some circuit and runway to yourself. Then keep a close listen for other traffic arriving while you are focused on your practice!

sunday driver 14th September 2016 17:18

H'm
Well, practice - of course
But
EFATO is a crisis.
Now I have been involved in quite a number of crises (none EFATO) and they all have one thing in common.
The critical thing about a crisis is spotting at the earliest possible moment that THIS IS A CRISIS! :eek:
So
This IS a crisis - doesn't matter if it's the Sudden Deathly Hush, the oil spattered windscreen or just a cough - it's a crisis.
All this wobbly prop stuff is fine, but THIS IS A CRISIS.
Don't P@@s around thinking this or that.
Just do it! Nose down, best glide, space ahead, land, stop, getout, breathe.
It's easier to explain that the nice aeroplane and you are in pristine condition sitting in an adjacent field than it is to ... well add your own scenario.
It's just too easy to pretend that things are going to get better - well maybe they might have, but then again maybe not.
I prefer to bank on certain, positive action, not on uncertain maybes.

Yours
An aviation simpleton
SD

mary meagher 14th September 2016 20:28

A one day winch launch course - 6 launches...
 
that should do it for most of you intrepid birdmen. At Shenington, my club, that would set you back £125 for 6 launches, including the instructor. You should mention you already fly in power, and basically want the actual experience of dealing with failed launches right down to the grass....have fun!

Come on your own, best without family or friends, so you can concentrate. And yes, you will have to push gliders out of the hangar, tow them to the launchpoint, help the other chaps on the course, and all that. It is actually more sociable than power flying, but it will take a day of your life, so bring a packed lunch.

Tell them Mary sent you!

Maoraigh1 14th September 2016 21:03

10/9/61 3 winch launches, 1 cable break. 8/10/61. 3 winch launches, 1 cable break. Record after that lost. I hope the reaction is still there. Last winch launch December 1962.
I'm not a turn back fan, but I'd NOT land STRAIGHT ahead if an acceptable turn would avoid hitting something.

londonblue 15th September 2016 10:43


As often as air traffic seems to permit, ask ATC if you can fly a circuit which will include a practice forced approach. Otherwise, fly to a quite, uncontrolled airport where you have some circuit and runway to yourself. Then keep a close listen for other traffic arriving while you are focused on your practice!
Maybe I should have made myself clear. I'm talking about actually practicing landing in a field (without actually landing of course) en-route somewhere, not executing a glide approach.

9 lives 15th September 2016 11:38


I'm talking about actually practicing landing in a field (without actually landing of course)
Here in lies the point of my post. To have the benefit of practicing a power off approach and landing, you have to land. Getting to within 200 feet AGL of the ground and powering away saying that you could have completed a landing is only a part of the training, and not the most valuable part. For the time when the engine has actually stopped, things may be different, so lots of practice is your friend then.

Flying the "best glide" speed accurately to short final is a demonstration of precision on your part, but may not set you up for your most successful landing. "Best glide" speed is the speed which provides the greatest distance per altitude lost (I'm sure the the sailplane pilots in the group can comment this better than I). Flying that slow speed will not give you the best excess to out maneuver wires seen late, or stretch 50 feet over a fence. Your practice may show you that carrying extra speed on the final 200 feet, to the flare provides you extra flexibility in your landing, and is easily slipped off if not needed.

If you happen to have a large airport, quiet at the time you are there, ask for a EFATO practice, and pull the power on yourself a hundred feet up. BUT CAUTION! Set yourself up well, with some extra speed before hand, until you get use to the maneuver! Climbing out with some flap extended, at Vx, and chopping the power at 100 feet, is a certain recipe for a very hard landing. The most scary flying I have ever flown was slower Vx EFATO testing in a Cessna Grand Caravan from 50 feet - I thought I was going to wreck it for sure. The testing requirement of 80 KIAS rather than Cessna's 87KIAS climb speed made all the difference, and the EFATO at 50 feet requirement (safe landing) could no longer be met.

When I mentor PFA's, every one will be set up for an actual landing (could be touch and go) to the surface. To assure that I could complete the PFA I have set up, I will always set it up so a slip is probably needed to get in nicely. If I'm going to do a power off landing, I'm not going on an un-necessary cross country, if there is a suitable field below me, that's where I'm going.

Crash one 15th September 2016 14:37


Originally Posted by londonblue (Post 9508549)
Maybe I should have made myself clear. I'm talking about actually practicing landing in a field (without actually landing of course) en-route somewhere, not executing a glide approach.

This is the problem in the UK. (Without actually landing ""of course"".)
The fear of being accused of cowboy actions, "must remember to point out that I won't be doing anything silly like actually touching the ground off airfield".
As a result practice is only carried out down to a low flying stage, no use to anyone.
Flying instructors who have never landed on grass.
Won't do PFLs below 500ft quoting rule 5 etc.
This establishes the mindset of the pilot.

Gertrude the Wombat 15th September 2016 20:17


As a result practice is only carried out down to a low flying stage, no use to anyone.
For a PFL (not EFATO) that's what I was taught ... followed by the instructor pulling the power at high key over the airfield, when I was expected to make it to the runway, to demonstrate that I could do the last few hundred feet as well.

9 lives 15th September 2016 20:55


(Without actually landing ""of course"".)
Of course... it's an incomplete exercise. It was not a full PFL if you did not L. The L is the important part, as it is the evidence that you set everything up correctly.

As you enter the flare, your correct speed and height over the fence will be the evidence that your approach was well judged. An error in that judgement will afford the opportunity to attempt a correction, like a forward slip. You might slip right onto the ground to obtain every benefit of the drag if you need to.

It is up to the instructor/mentor and "student" (who could still be an experienced pilot in recurrent training) to find a suitable place, which if quiet could be the airport. I know that some airports allow the use of the infield for that. We were touring through Croatia, and the airport we stopped was dead quiet. Lots of runway, and no traffic, I asked ATC, and no problem, as many circuits and PFL's as we wanted. I'm sure tower enjoyed the show!

mary meagher 16th September 2016 07:43

Step turn suggests carrying extra speed to the flare in an actual forced landing rather than best glide. VERY IMPORTANT. It enables you to see that invisible wire strung between the trees while you still have height and speed to avoid it...or an inconvenient fence. You can always get rid of that extra energy but if the field is too small and the hedge is approaching all too soon on your rollout after touchdown, it won't hurt nearly as bad as winding your aircraft up in an unseen wire on short final.


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