So when does it all click?
 

Hello there,

I've been told from many people that it all just 'clicks' one day and I wonder when that's going to be!

I've done 28 hours, flown solo, passed all exams and am currently working on cross country. When I read the books I feel good and confident, I really understand it...then when I'm in the aeroplane I still have to think so hard what to do next, when to do it, what's my height, what's my airspeed, attitude etc etc. You may think this is normal but surely I should be more fluent by now? I am still terrified of spinning the aeroplane as I genuinely thought of giving up after ex11...I didn't enjoy that one!

Any thoughts appreciated :)

If its a consolation flying VFR didn't really click completely with me until after 100 hours as a flight instructor so about 320 hours. Before that I thought I knew what I was doing passed all the exams etc but really was going through the motions with what I had been taught. After it clicked I knew what I was doing and the actual control inputs were automatic. I just needed to think I want to be over there in xxx config at yy speed and it would happen while I was spouting the theory and demonstrating while knowing what all the other traffic on frequency was doing. I suppose a bit like when you realise you haven't thought about changing gear or what you did with the clutch in a car on a hill start.

IFR it was after the first winter so was about 500 hours. Before that I didn't have a clue what was going on around me looking back. I only knew what was going to happen in 5 mins time.

These days it automatic for me to think flights in advance and 6 day blocks. The individual flights are just revolutions of the same procedures and its more maint, flight duty times, operation planning issues etc etc The flying is the fun part when nobody can phone me up. But that's the life of a commercial Captain.

Its completely normal so don't worry about it.

As MJ says, the real 'click' is well beyond PPL. The point at which you 'think' the aeroplane around much as you do with your car without being conscious of any control inputs; the point where maintaining 1000 feet in the circuit just happens automatically without you having to think about power, attitude, trim; the point where you want to lose 800 feet in an overhead join and just roll wings vertical without pulling and without even thinking about it, is a couple of hundred hours minimum, I'd say. Maybe quite a bit more for the latter.

Sounds like you're doing OK so far - keep up the good work and the rewards will come!

lindbergh said it best, you don't know how to fly until you have taught someone else how to fly.

so there you go, when you feel you could teach someone else how to fly, you may very well hear the clicking sound.

but if it is from your teeth, see a dentist.

you should be consciously thinking about everything, though I would say altitude and not height...maybe it is a british thing.

a friend told me you are not a real instrument pilot until you can fly an approach to minimums while eating a hamburger.

so, 28 hours...be patient little bird.

As MJ and Ssd says it takes a while, with me it's been a looooong while , I've got about 800 hours now and recently done my Instrument rating and will be sitting my commercial check ride in a few weeks and am only now thinking this flying thing is clicking and feeling comfortable (hopefully not complacent)with the whole thing.

Being a farm boy I would describe it as the feeling I got in my teens when backing a grain trailer into a shed, or burling the tractor down the right tattie drill or other tractor driving tasks without having to think about it or demolishing stuff , it becomes second nature.

Thank you all,

I will only be flying for fun and my licence journey ends at PPL. No IMC or ATPL needed here, just a quick night rating and I'm away :)

It'll take a while. Indeed, you will only know it has clicked when you look back, and think to yourself, hmmm, that clicked a while back, and I did not notice.

When I was learning to fly, there was this old pilot, who was just around the club all the time. While I was busy dreaming of progressing from a 150 (before the days of 152's) to a 172, I'd see him fly three or four types in a day - never needing a checkout or anything! I always wanted to be a pilot like him.

A few years back, I was flying home from work in my 150. I thought back on what I had flown solo that, and the previous days: I'd flown my 150, a Cessna Caravan, a DA42, a Lake Amphibian, and a Tiger Moth. Click. I was that old pilot, 35 years later. But the click had happened some time ago, as I was capable of flying these planes, and trusted to do so, long before I had.

I don't know when the click happened, and it does not matter really. If you think you have heard it, it was a mirage. Instead, you'll look back one day, and think to yourself, hmm, I clicked a while back, and didn't hear it. You'll just relax and smile to yourself. Ii the mean time, just enjoy....

I love the wisdom and the stories...

Its because in our world we still use QFE and QNH so we use both terms depending what we are doing.

As soon as we see height we presume circuits or in a MATZ.

Altitude they must be cross country.

Oh and I have flown with commercial pilots that it still hasn't clicked after thousands of hours. And to be honest if there car driving is anything to go by they never will. Just no gut feel or touch with any machinery.

A retired airline pilot gave me this advice:-

- At 100 hours you think you'll never get it
- At 1000 hours you think you've got it
- At 10000 hours you know you'll never get it

And considered to be one of the most dangerous times!

Yes, 1000 hours seems to be a dark click. At 1004 hours flying time I was a bit too casual flying a Tomahawk, and had my first dark click. It was the first time I realized that my growing casualness or complacency had lead me to darn near wreck a plane, and I had the experience to recognize that that had nearly happened to me!

Now, with a lot more experience than that, I'm looking over my shoulder a lot more, and seeing how many things could have just gone wrong, but happily didn't. For me, the bliss of ignorance is way behind me!

Sure, but it ain't quite that bad, folks.

Most of us make the transition, before PPL, between

- five minutes is nowhere near long enough to do all the things you have to do to get round the circuit

and

- gosh this circuit is taking forever, wonder if there's anything interesting to look at out of the window.

not a chance in hell I clicked in CPL never mind PPL and I have never seen any PPL click during training. There have been some good uns one of mine is now flying Typhoons. But the instinctive use of the controls to obtain a flight profile nope never happened. And even the ones that were the dogs dangles aka the one that went off to the RAF he didn't have the big pic through his ears of what was going on around him with a mental update of his model with time with the data with no more information.

ie knowing if traffic is going to be infront of you or behind you by its last position and intentions. And which bit of the window to look at to find traffic and when its worth while looking for it. This does presume a back ground in types performance as well. Ie PA38 does 85-90 knts and other types slightly slower or faster.

When it clicks you don't do any calcs you just know its the right time when to look and where to look. The controls might as well be on auto pilot for all the conscience effort it takes to think what to do with them.

The first time you take off with the pitot cover on, and don't notice until after you land.;)

I began to really learn to fly when I started instructing!

And now I am so old that I have to fly with an instructor, it still comes natural to talk through what I am doing and why.

I Love it!

I am interested in this part of the post:-
I would like to know what aircraft you did your spinning in and how you did it - many people who have this reaction I find have done spinning in aircraft that are not really suitable such as C152 or Pa28 or an instructor who uses the technique that results from learning on these aircraft, by this I mean that they pull hard into the entry then have a rushed patter before the aircraft recovers by itself - do spinning on a proper spinning aircraft with a good instructor and it is a far more relaxed affair and few people come away terrified.

Why do spins at all unless you are doing an aerobatics rating?

It depends how its taught those exercises.

Some still teach people by getting them to stall and then do a dance on the rudder pedals lifting wings and such nonsense.

Its no wonder some don't like them, and if the instructor is clueless and pass on all the old wifes tales to do with stalling etc it makes it worse.

Hell some instructors are adding on 20knts to book approach speeds because they are clueless and !!!! scared themselves of stalling.

Increased knowledge and handling ability?

Agreed it does but its the when its done and by whom which I think is up for debate.

It was years after I finished instructing I realised how ill equipped I had been teaching spinning in the aircraft I was using.

300hrs is a number that seems to come up quite often.

After passing my PPL, thinking that I knew how to fly now, I bought an aged PA28 140 and flew 300hrs in 18 months. At 300hrs it all really came together, and also made me realise how accurate the description of the ppl was, as a "licence to learn".

And in what aircraft - but I think this has been covered enough in previous threads.

C152s and PA28s spin and recover in a way which allows the student to appreciate the concept of a spin, and the sensations to be experienced. These types also allow practice at recovery technique. They are suitable. That is not to say they are the best, but they're suitable - they're certified for it.

A good friend of mine used to tell me about spinning Meteors, Hunters, and the efforts made to not spin Phantoms. From what he tells me, spinning a Hunter made a pilot out of you - a Hunter pilot. Very cool, but personally, I don't see myself needing to develop the skills to spin and recover a Hunter.

If a pilot learns to skillfully spin and recover a C152, or a PA28, that pilot will have adequate skills to recover a recoverable spin in any certified single engine aircraft, and that's all that's intended from the training.

Sure, there are excellent things to be learned in aerobatics courses, and in other aerobatic types - go for it if that interests you.

But otherwise every student should learn the basics of spinning - three reasons: Awareness - you know what's going to happen if you get in, and that there will be a period of rotation where the aircraft will seem to not react to a control input, but be patient. The knowledge that you can recover a recoverable spin, so don't just give up. And, you understand the sensations as you approach the stall/spin, so you can allow yourself to get close (a confident 1.3Vs approach in a crosswind with a chop), and thus fly the aircraft as it was designed, rather that these 1.3Vs + 15 knot approaches resulting from lack of skill and understanding. An added bonus would be the instructor who has the student spin the same aircraft at the extremes of its spin approved C of G range, to see the difference in handling. This is where one learns why we don't load behind the aft C of G limit!

I'm one of those students of the '70's who was only trained spins in a 150. At that time, that was all that was available. But I practiced, practiced, and still practice. I do not accidentally spin airplanes, and when I deliberately spin them under planned safe testing conditions, it works out fine. Now, I count 12 types I have spun, and with changed configurations, it becomes 17, With the biggest being a Cessna Grand Caravan. It taught me that there is no room to not follow the Flight Manual procedure, so know your aircraft!

So students, go and spin the spin approved aircraft - even just the compromise C 152/PA28, in a planned flight for that purpose, with your instructor. You'll thank yourself later....

IMHO, just because an aircraft is certified for something does NOT mean it is suitable!
C152s and Pa28s are not easy to get into a spin so the entry tends to be overdramatic with a hard pull back before the stall is reached, then they do not stay in easily so the instructors patter tends to be rushed, then the spin will frequently degenerate into a spiral dive, so this does NOT show the "concept" of the spin (whatever that is?!) and often results in the incorrect recovery being used as it should then be a spiral dive recovery - and part of proper spin training is showing the difference between Spin and spiral.
Compare this to spinning in something like the Bulldog - entry can be done AT the stall and it will enter a spin without a dramatic nose up inverted entry, it will then stay in the spin, giving the instructor plenty of time to cover WIHIH, much more relaxed. Teaching on Cessna and Pipers is, I believe, one reason so many hate and fear spinning!

FWIW the PA28 should not be spun if loaded into the "NORMAL" catagory.

You must load it into the UTILITY Catagory, so check you W&B and aircraft manual.

Now, if you want to have fun in a spin, try a tomahawk!

I've spun a C150 a few times, because it seemed to be the only way to pass a course at the time but wasn't at-all happy about it, the PA28 not at-all.

Every aeroplane I've been comfortable spinning had a "get out of gaol" card - whether that was a BRS, ejector seat, or personal parachute and jettisonable door.

Okay, there are a few hardened aerobatic pilots who spin at very low level and thus the parachute would do no good at-all. Those pilots are usually very current in spinning and know their aeroplanes very well - so far enough, they fly other manoeuvres where there's no recovery if it's messed up either. Their call, grown-ups and all that.


But I really cannot accept the perceived wisdom in deliberately spinning an aeroplane with no emergency "route out". Maybe I know too much having studied the spin at very great length during my PhD, but I know people - better pilots than me who have jumped or pulled the handle from an unrecoverable spin, and knew somebody who didn't.

(My distant recollecton of spinning the Hunter was that it was pretty straightforward and honest - just lost a stupid amount of altitude.)



As for when it clicks - for me it's really a matter of recency rather than total time. If I'm doing the sort of flying I've been doing, say, 6-12 hours per month over the last 3+ months, it's clicked and whilst complacency is still the enemy, I can get pretty smooth and consistent. If I go below half a dozen hours a month, or are doing the sort of flying I've not done for a while (say some complicated handling tests, which I tend to only do a few times a year, or an instrument approach if I've not flown one for 3+ months, then it's distinctly un-clicked and I need to get myself back in the groove.)

G

That applies to almost all aircraft, even some highly aerobatic ones!

Well, yes and no, and no. A properly entered spin in a utility category plane will not become a spiral dive, or that plane would not be certified. Any aircraft for which the spin changes to a spiral dive within one turn of the spin will not be certified without a lot of discussion with the approving authority. This is why the installation of a STOL kit wing cuff on a 150 or 172, will result in a "Spins prohibited" limitation. It simply won't stay in the spin past one turn, as required by the utility design requirements.

So yes, training spin recovery in an aircraft in which the spin changes into a spiral dive by itself is more difficult, though properly briefed, it is a valuable learning opportunity. But, if you're training spins in an aircraft which won't stay in a spin for one turn, something is wrong. Otherwise, if you are following the spin recovery technique specified by the aircraft manufacturer, the correct recovery is being used. In all cases it's going to include reduce the AoA, and stop the yaw. Minor variations in this may delay recovery, but they will not prevent it. For example, the Caravan POH says to avoid the use of the ailerons, as the up going spoiler linked to the aileron may delay recovery.

As for the Bulldog, I've read about how good they are for spin training, and I'd love to try one - but I'm not aware that there are any in Canada. Everyone who I know who has spun them says they are superior to other training types (in many ways), and how lucky for those who can train in them - but it does not make spin training in other utility types unworthwhile....

A "click" for me is that with proper preparation, I'll one turn spin any certified normal category single engined GA aircraft, for which a spin demonstration is required for certification.

I have only once spun a c152 and it remained in the spin of its own violation.


Unfortunately it wouldn't recover using the poh prescribed spin recovery.

Mad_jock: wrong mass&balance?

I wouldn't regard that as much of a problem myself given that a spiral dive is easily recovered from in most aeroplanes - I've test flown and certified without difficulty aeroplanes which autorecovered into a spiral dive. I can't think of anything in part 23 which requires the aeroplane to stay in a spin.

It does need some careful POH wording, and there is the issue that most light aircraft instructors and students never read the POH, but that's basically Darwinian and the authorities don't have big issues about that.

G

Nope just a none certified tested entry put us in a mode which isn't documented.

During fi rating the fii was demoing steep turns and pulled to the buffet and then waggled the controls in roll.

Outside wing stalled competly we flicked over the top into a high rot spin. Faster than the pa38.

Normally poh recovery performed and basically sod all happended with full rudder and the stick full forward.

Controls were then neutralised rudder applied and throttle opened until the rotation started slowing then a small amount of forward pitch applied. We recovered to s&l at about 750ft agl from 6k and over 5 rotations.

I suggest you don't try and replicate it. The engine was burping and farting during the spin and if it hadden't picked up i would have been a greasy smear.

The Bulldog could get into a High rotational spin with unusual characteristics from which there was no recovery. We were told in no uncertain terms to hit the silk! I only had limited knowlwdge of it.Thoroughly put me off spinning!

Thank you M-J. It's a bit off putting to read such things about a supposedly benign training aircraft. What would have happened to a student solo?

Back when I did my PPL spins were part of the syllabus. It was quite difficult to get the C150 to spin as opposed to spiral dive, and one method we used was a flick entry. There have, however, been accidents over the years that show that the normally benign 150/152 can and does spin viciously. And I suspect, like many aeroplanes that don't readily spin, when they do spin for real, recovery may be prolonged.

I've spun quite a few aeroplanes (150 / 152, Chipmunk, Citabria, Yak52 come to mind) and thankfully never had any recovery issues. Only in the Yak did I have a parachute, but knowing what I do now about how spins are not necessarily repeatable (each can be a bit different to the last and occasionally you might get a very nasty one) I wouldn't do it now without a parachute and plenty of height.

Don't student spin accidents usually involve screwing up the turn from base to final? So it hardly matters what sort of spin it is, or which recovery method works, as there isn't the height to recover?

Spin accidents take many forms; the base-to-final turn is only one example. However, although a fully developed spin from circuit height is irrecoverable, a pilot trained in and familiar with the feel of the aeroplane as it departs probably won't allow the aeroplane to spin as it'll be ingrained second nature for hands and feet to reduce the AoA and remove any yaw before a spin develops.

A pilot without that grounding in spins and spin recovery will probably miss the subtle clues the aeroplane gives before departure, and may not even know something's wrong until the nose starts to drop. At that point, still not understanding what's happening, they may well instinctively pull back.

Incipient spin training simply doesn't cut it. To be sensitised to those subtle pre-departure clues and to have the automatic reactions to them to unload the wing and remove any yaw without having to think about it (there won't be time!), requires that the pilot be in regular full spin and recovery practice, and/or current in aeros where critical AoA is sometimes exceeded.

In thousands of posts, this is probably one of the most relevant written in a long time.... Pay heed....