- PFL - once or twice every two months, touchdown has to be with 50 metres of selected point on the runway

- Stall recovery in cruise - occasionaly, most times just to show pax it is a non event

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach - no
- Cable break - n/a

- Fire - never think about it thanks for the heads up :ooh:

- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off) - have lived the real thing, now permanently imprinted. But I do, every second or third flight, brief myself on what to do should it happen

- Inadvertent flight into IMC? - No, I keep my eyes open and steer clear of clouds

Thank you for that great feedback.
The thread wouldn't be the same without it.

Genghis, I can't say I disagree.
I wasn't going to go against him though....

As I said, it's all pretty moot now anyway.
He promised me stalls in the "new project"; so looking forward to that!!

And before the flamers warm up their torches: my instructor is a gifted pilot, who has flown loads of stuff with zero accidents / incidents at his expense.
I would say he's a good teacher, I often go home feeling pretty small--> and normally I do come back a little stronger.

I will double check on this stall thing though. Please let me get home in a few weeks and I will get back to you.

###Ultra Long Hauler##

I try to send my students home feeling they've learned stuff and improved, not small.

Take a look at the UK Microlight Syllabus which is basically an adaptation of the standard ICAO PPL syllabus developed over quite a lot of years for use on microlight aeroplanes.

If you aren't learning to something very similar, in basically the same order, then there's something basically wrong.

Airworthiness is a bigger issue - different countries have different approaches to this. If you want to be very comfortable about the basic safety of your microlight, pick something that is approved as a microlight/ultralight in the UK, Australia, Germany or the Czech Republic - which are basically the places who do it properly.

G

Thanks "G". I'll check it out.

When I say "small" I don't mean humiliated.
I mean that I get the bigger picture, reflecting on my mistakes. I am humble.
He's supporting, technically a very knowlegable man and so far I have been doing allright; flying wise.
I'm not a champ like so many on-line, but I have been to a good few runways without any middle fingers from anybody yet.

Now, in about 3 weeks; we're going to go "stick" in the Patriot together and I can't wait.

I will keep you posted if you want!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

I am genuinely surprised how many people do PFL's at an airfield.

For me the hard parts are:
-Selecting the right field (what looks good from a couple of thousand can look quite ropey from a couple of hundred, particularly wrt slope)
-Planning an appropriate 'circuit' around it w/o prior knowledge and landmarks, positioning into the 'downwind' properly (exacerbated by the need to judge height above an unknown datum).
- Dealing with having committed to a field, getting the approach right and not changing ones mind inappropriately/making good decisions if you are making a hash of it.. Last couple I did 'wild' would have left me in the far hedge.

Obviously the above aren't really tested doing a PFL to the runway. Is this a 'cultural difference' (given my training was not of UK origin)?

I sort of agree Mark.

PFLs / glide approaches to an airfield have training value in practicing judging the glide and going through the procedures, but they are nowhere near as busy as trying to position for a field, the identity of which you didn't know when the throttle was pulled, on uncertain terrain, and with numerous obstructions to take into account.

Similarly the post above by our American friend n5296s; who thinks that EFATO is about "just land straight ahead". Well maybe in Kansas where it's all huge flat fields, or on a huge war-surplus runway with an extra mile in front of you after take-off. But, at most European GA airfields, or quite a few in places like Alaska or Florida, where at very low heights you have to pick a field in front of you, convert a climb very quickly to a glide, finely judge your positioning, and set up for a landing in that one just-about-big-enough field 29.5 degrees off the runway centreline without hitting the trees, drystone walls, or power lines that inevitably surround it. All in not very many seconds. That can be really quite demanding.

The turnback (which the Americans call the impossible turn) is of course one way of dealing with that, if you're practiced enough, if you're high enough, and if conditions are in your favour. But it's still an EFATO.

G

Did my first ever Practice PAN to D&D 121.50 yesterday :ok:

I would normally use it to finish off a session of PFLs, or at the end of a nav for a student who hasn't done a PFL in a while, it really helps the student remember what they can and can't get away with, particularly mistakes like pulling flap too early and then falling short.

Nothing beats getting out and about, getting low over a field. Something that looks green and flat from 3000' looks lumpy, rutted and covered with telephone cables from 300', and students really need to learn this judgement of what would be a suitable site.

That's great, in the UK the guys at D&D really seem to appreciate it as it keeps their skills sharp too.

Earlier on I mentioned not having practiced stalls due to my instructor being uncomfortable stalling the microlight back then…….causing this reaction:

Okay, I sent a few E-mails and it seems that I was wrong!
This was the reason why we didn´t do stalls, just to clarify:

My instructor was NOT happy doing stalls in that particular plane not due to the structural strength; but rather to the altitude restriction in the area where we are. We could only go up to 1000´ (we are next to an international airport); and my instructor was not comfortable trying a stall in an unknown plane at that altitude.

Now, local rules have changed--> my new plane is registered as a LSA, so he promised me stalls as soon as I come home.
He said it wasn´t a big deal, that it´s not as exciting as it sounds.

He did add that with home kit planes; you have to more careful though.
If both wings are not identical; you could easily get into a spin; which why he wanted more altitude before stalling.

He added that this particular microlight is rather "over-engineered"--> not at all unsafe, but rather sluggish to fly cause it´s so heavy.

Genghis, I was the one that was misguided!
Apologies!!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

The height rules for stalling at my club are

Dual - sufficient to recover by 2,000'
Solo - sufficient to recover by 3,000'

so there would be no question of whether the instructor was comfortable or what the aircraft type was, it would simply be against the rules, end of story.

Are there any club flying order books which allow stalling at 1,000'?

Most gliding clubs I think Gertrude.

I still wouldn't want to be taking an aeroplane into the circuit, or teaching on it, without having stalled it, but I do agree that stalling any aeroplane below 1000ft unless you know it incredibly well and it has very benign characteristics, is foolhardy. I think personally that your instructor should have been prepared to take the aircraft some distance if necessary to fly these bits of the syllabus.

G

I tend not to have practiced too much of late. When I was flying the Chipmunk, and practicing routines, I felt very much up to speed. It has been a while since I was doing that stuff, and I now fly differing types more frequently, therefore I tend to go from A to B.

However, I renew ratings, bi annual SEP validation, and I take once every three months, a check ride with an instructor, where we complete some of the more intensive Instrument let downs, and Unusual attitide stuff.

Interestingly though, having come through the EFATO thread, I was sitting last night bored with Big Brother, and I did think I must get out and do more emergency practice. I have also found that not ALL instructors are up for a bit of intense manouvering, and I respect their judgement. Horses for courses.:sad:

Aaahh Genghis, but you see; I covered that:
He did them before I even joined the club.

Fair enough, I won´t argue with that.

He mentioned roughly 3.000 feet for us to start practicing in the LSA!
Can´t wait!

Cheers!

###Ultra Long Hauler###

3000ft is a sensible height for practicing stalls.

You may find it mildly exciting, but it isn't anything really disturbing - at-least at those sort of altitudes.

G

As a glider pilot:

- PFL None since 1971 when I was cleared for field landings and cross country flying.
- Real forced landings: Over 150, of which at least 100 into farmers fields etc. (typically 4-6 p.a. from about 1972 – 2005. Not so many since, none last year.)
– Stall recovery in cruise: At least 2 p.a. with an instructor, and umpteen when solo.
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach – never, unless meant at much higher altitude. (Not good news low down in a glider, and I’m surprised anybody does it in powered a/c).
- Cable break: At least 1 p.a. with an instructor. Sometimes a real one when solo, but with modern winch systems it is much less frequent than it used to be.

- Fire: never. (In a glider, it would be jettison canopy, and bale out, unless one could land very quickly. Somebody did the latter recently – just in time, the fire destroyed the fuselage. Caused by spilt oil/fuel from the self-launching engine igniting somehow. If interested, see the photo at:

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...n0nzOv7VfjGwM? )

- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off): NA.
- Inadvertent flight into IMC? Same as Rod1 – whenever I can, usually several times each year.-
- Spins - At least 2 p.a. with an instructor. Seem not permitted in my solo glider - utility category, i.e.no aerobatics (though recovery is specified in POH). I do solo stalls with wing drop (“incipient spin” in old money) several times p.a.

Chris N.

- PFL
Probably average once a month
- Stall recovery in cruise
Every three or four flights, on average
- Stall recovery from a simulated approach
Not as often as I should, assuming you mean the base turn to final part of the approach? Once in a while, but more often now!
- Cable break
Not a glider pilot, but I do practice flying without controls - stick / throttle / rudder, trim. Try it in a Tiger sometime - no stick just rudder throttle and trim. The spring based trim isn't an aerodynamic trim like newer stuff, and causes a fugoid motion which is a little disconcerting. Fun to try though.
- Fire
Touch drill only
- EFATO (Engine Failure After Take-Off)
Occasionally do this one. I know my local terrain pretty well, so would like to try at another location I'm less familiar with.
- Inadvertent flight into IMC?
Until recently, didn't have any instruments to speak of so no.
- Anything else?
Landing from anywhere in the circuit, as quickly as possible - need an empty circuit for this.
Different approach regimes (flaps, short field, spot landing, fast wheelers, crosswinds etc)
Instruments out, really only asi and altimeter up to now, but moving onto other bits of kit.
Twice done air start - once in C152, once in Tiger. Need lots of height plus landing options. Both times dual.
Upset practice - some recovery from unusual attitude, with a safety pilot obviously!

Lots more to think about though.

fwjc, I (and I think others) took the reference to cable breaks to refer to the launch cable used to get gliders into the air by means of a winch, rather than the control cables within the glider or aircraft. Hence the power pilots saying not applicable, and me giving a positive answer.

I have very rarely practised flying with loss of any of the controls. Most gliders are unflyable without use of the elevator, although some are stable in pitch when properly trimmed, and some with an aerodynamic trim tab rather than a spring in the elevator circuit could perhaps be controlled in pitch via the trim tab.

It is said by some that one can do without ailerons by using rudder, and vice versa. When I have tried this in a glider, it does not work at all well. If I get back to flying again, I might try it again in my present glider, so thanks to this thread for raising the issue.

Chris N

Chickened out of a club currency check ride today, on the grounds that I didn't fancy doing glide approaches with gusty crosswinds at my limit.

Yeah yeah, I can hear y'all now: "but if the engine fails for real, it won't check the wind conditions first".

PFL-don't do them away from the airfield, don't like being low down if I don't have to be. Done loads of real ones as a glider pilot anyway (except we call them 'outlandings', far more elegant) so they don't worry me, through many years of habit I unconsciously always have a field selected.

- Stall recovery in cruise. If I'm having a bimble I might go through the different stalls for amusement.

- Stall recovery from a simulated approach-see above

- Cable break-get enough real ones without having to practise them, we're not a wealthy club and piano wire gets a bit brittle....

- Fire-very good call, I don't but in future I'll run through my fire drills before every take off. Thank you.

- EFATO- same reason as PFL's, shutting the donk down at 500' for fun is a bit of an anathema to me. I'm always ready for a cable break, likewise I'm always expecting the engine to fail on take off.

- Inadvertent flight into IMC?-just finished my IMC course, no probs with that one.

- Anything else?-Spins, do them as currency checks on gliders. I enjoy doing them anyway so given HASLL I often give myself a rotation or two.

FWJC has made an interesting point about controlling the a/c without controls, I'll give that a go.

Even with an IR or IMCR, entry into IMC can still be inadvertent, and although it may not carry the risks of losing control, it can still entail the risks of icing, terrain avoidance and aircraft separation.

Unless you've put the planning in to MSA and traffic service etc, then you should still look to remain clear of IMC. :}