Icao Language Proficiency Check
 

Does anyone know where I can take an informal evaluaton for English language proficiency at level 6 (any where in UK).

Are you a native English speaker?

Any EASA TRE should be able to issue one of these.

Not necessarily. It depends on a number of factors, including whether you're a native English speaker and whether your state of licence issue places specific requirements for the grant of a Level 6. Hence the reason I asked the question.

Many NAAs require non native English speakers to undergo a formal language assessment. The UK CAS were pragmatic enough to allow native English speakers to be assessed by an examiner in the course of a skill test.

Edit: damn iPad spelling.

Mind you the original question is about an (sic!) which might well indicate the poster is after a rough assessment of her/his chances for a level 6. Seeing (s)he left 2 typos in place even after a PM, that might be a wise idea.

These guys from the UK offer level 6 testing in Germany and elsewhere: Cockpit Voices.

They offered me a quick chat on the phone to determine whether level 6 is a realistic option.

This ICAO language stuff makes me want to cry. I had a document from the FAA declaring that I was "English proficient" but the German CAA did not consider the FAA to be competent in this regard and required me to pass the test with a German examiner whose English was ... rather basic.

And some require native English speakers to undergo formal testing too.

What does the apostrophe stand for in "typo's"? :)

@achimha... Cockpit Voices is at the moment no longer acredited to do Level 6, so I hear.

The FAA " English proficient" is only Level 4! Being proficient does not mean you are good enough for level 6. Besides, the remark on your FAA is not dated, which is required by ICAO, since level 4 is only good for 3-4 years (depending on country and/or IFR). Oh, and the German LBA does not accept tests done in other countries anyway, not even ones done in England, since the examiners are unknown to them.

You beat me there, duckling! I stand corrected, and so does my writing.

"There even are places where English completely
disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!"

Prof. HH

This english proficiency requirement is an odd one. Take for example UK JAA PP and a Thai PPL licence.
- In Thailand: you need an English proficiency evaluation to fly outside Thailand on a HS-registered plane. You do not need one if you fly within Thai airspace on such a licence.
- UK licence: it states that the language proficiency is English. (Obviously so I would say as all the training and tests/exams are in English anyway). But does such a licence holder need an extra exam to fly outside UK's airspace, like in Thailand?

Your UK PPL should contain a statement about English language proficiency ICAO level 6, dated XXX. Otherwise there could be trouble when flying outside of the UK.

Without this entry, Germans aren't even allowed to fly to Austria although the only official language there is German. So don't be surprised if they ground you in Ireland and confiscate your plane :)

The ICAO language test is one of the most stupid things I've seen lately. At least in Germany, it was very hard to find someone that was accredited to do the exam and pretty much impossible to get to more than level 4 without having to travel hundreds of kilometers.

When you fly to France and want to land at an aerodrome where there is no tower or outside business hours, usually the official unicom language is French. Legally, one would have to get a ICAO language proficiency entry for French as well.

[Grammar pedant hat on]

It is customary to insert an apostrophe into abbreviated words.

A "typo's" is an abbreviation of "typographical errors", the apostrophe has been used correctly.

[/Grammar pedant hat off]

The FAA actually check for Level 4 or better, they just don't discriminate; if you pass, you pass. Recurrent checks are done (implicitly) every time you do a biannual flight check, instrument check, checkride or medical - all instructors, examiners and FMEs are required to inform the FAA if they consider your English proficiency is not good enough for level 4. Does that happen in practice? I don't know.......

It should, but it does not. They just state English proficient. The UK CAA will provide a letter stating your level if requested. I doubt a native English speaker is going to be in much trouble flying outside the UK.

@achima... The English exams allows you to do radio communication in English only. Since the primary aviation language IS English, the testing in English has priority.

You actually are not allowed to do radio communication in French unless you have a French level 4 (if it's being tested at all). Soon there will be the requirement for German level 4 within Germany for airfields that only communicate in German (listed in the AIP on the field charts)

And that regulation always existed. If a pilot could not communicate in German and an airfield only had German listed, then that pilot could not fly there.

I wouldn't call it stupid... ICAO set it up for a reason; and you can't have examiners for level 6 unless they themselves are good enough, and are professional language instructors or similar.

Some countries take it more serious then others. I heard that some German microlights were grounded in Denmark because they didn't have their English level 4 since there they are considered SEP's. And I also heard that soon after inforcement, the French had a fun time checking all incoming British pilots to see if they had their English level! :} Sorry, I can't confirm any of those "rumors".... just like the rumor that all of Alitalia's pilot got the level 6 without an exam. :uhoh:

The bastards did as well. I was on the recieving end of that :mad: with a license with less than a year to run and no level indicated on it. The frog saying that if there was no level indicated it meant that it was level 4 and as the license was 4.5 years old I was out of date. Of course it was the weekend and they were quite happy to throw me in Jail until the CAA opened up again.

To be fair, MJ, you are not a native English speaker so deserve what you get..... :p:p:p:p

Can you point out a reference for this?

I can understand why it would make sense, but I've never seen any regulation with required it.

Indeed it would make French airfields in accessable to many foreign pilots even if they were fluent French speakers, simply because there is no facility to add French languange proficiency to their licence.

Imagine a Norweign pilot asking the Norweign CAA for a French Languange Proficiency test so that they could add it to their licence. It's very unlikely that they would have developed such a test, or have such an examiner.

Nobody other then the Norweign CAA can add any privlidges to a Norweign licence other than the Norweign CAA. Hence such a pilot could never visit such a French airfield.

I don't believe that there is any languange requirements in ICAO either other than needing either the local language or English.

Indeed many of these airfields can be used non-radio, making such a requirement simply silly.

bose that one has come up with the TRE's a few times.

It is usually replied to with various comments about thier english lack of parents and other variations of 4 letter combos.

ICAO regulations do not directly apply in member countries but the member countries are required to pass legislation that implements ICAO regulations. The German law says "need to be proficient in the language or English". I don't know the equivalent French bill but I bet it does not contain the "or English" part. The Canadians mention that for French in Québec, one needs to pass the test, found it here.

Norwegian is not an ICAO language and while theoretically possible, the AIP would probably not declare an aerodrome as Norwegian speaking only. The same applies to German which isn't an ICAO language either (mainly because ICAO was founded in 1944 without Germany) so all aerodromes are indicated as de/en in the AIP. In France, most smaller aerodromes are indicated as fr/en during official opening hours and fr only outside business hours. Some fields are only indicated as fr.

wrong! though Germany may not be (officially) an ICAO language, there are MANY airfields that have ge only.... shall I list a few? Aachen-Mersbrück, Aschersleben, Backnang, Bienenfarm, Porta Westfalica, Tannheim (!), Wyk auf Föhr, and so on and so forth.

If you want to use the radio in Norwegian or French, then you must have Norwegian or French in your license, same with any other language. It does not matter if it's an ICAO language or not. Going to a French only field without a French endorsement is poor flight planing. :=

And how is one supposed to plane or obtain such an endorsement? Reminds me of the engine with Unobtainium cylinders and pistons, the best there could ever be!

the last time I few there the controller told all the locals to speak english on frequency because I couldn't speak german.

I've asked you for a reference for this, and obvioulsy you can't give one, but you say it again as if it's fact. This has come up before on the forums, but nobody has ever been able to find a law or regulation saying it is so.

There is no reference whatsoever to it in the French AIP (where pilots visiting the country would be expected to look).

If nobody can find the law, and it's not mentioned in the AIP, it's in all likelyhood no such law exists, and you are simply confused with what might be a good idea and what is law.

If your reading of French laws is as good as your reading of my post... ;)
I never mentioned the Norwegian language, but rather a Norweigan licence holder wanting to use a French only airfield.

As for This has already been pointed out to you as being incorrect. I can add further examples.

Westwind....now you've made the same claim. Can you provide a reference for this?

Why?
I don't believe that there is any legal requirement for it, as nobody seems to be able to find such a law. If there isn't such a low then all the pilot needs is a working knowledge of the language. And in any case, for many of these fields it is acceptable to arrive non-radio, so what does language matter?

Exactly! This is what I was trying to show in my example of a Norwegian licence holder wanting to visit a French only airfield.
How for example am I supposed to get a French languange cert for my Irish licence? It's simply not possible.

If nobody can produce the law that says this is a requirement, and it doesn't say anything in the AIP, then I think it's just misinformed hearsay.

You have all my understanding and sympathy. Still I recommend you prepare a huge pile of handkerchiefs (or what are they called today?), EASA is coming!

Oh by the way you're also incorrect on the Canadians bit.
Reading the link you posted it says
So it's English or the local language, as I said in my first post on this topic, which is in accordance with ICAO.

dublin Westwind knows whart she is talking about in germany. I suspect she is correct.

The French stuff is definately correct and it doesn't matter what your interpretation is they will nick you and fine the backside off you and keep you in jail until you pay it if you do go into a french only airflield and get caught.

This French government website contains some information. The actual law text is here.

This means the DGAC will assess French and English proficiency (which are the only two approved languages in French aviation) but for other languages, pilots have to address other organizations (this actually implies that the French license issuer should accept such foreign assessments). The law text mentions how pilots get the French level 6 entry. The law also clearly states that one has to have the relevant assessment for the language used.

The AIP (only have Jeppesen here at the moment) clearly marks certain aerodromes as French only. So I think the situation is pretty clear. Unless you have ICAO level 4 or higher for French, you cannot legally land at an aerodrome in France that is not marked for English radio communication.

If they put a Scotsman in jail for not being English proficient, what would they do with an Irishman that is supposed to do radio communication in French? ;)

MJ! You're not supposed to kill my cover! := How are you btw? Still have contact with the "Pinkster"?

So, achimha, you have literally confirmed what we have been saying. It's logical that a French authority can only evaluate French and/or English even as the Germans can only evaluate German and/or French (there are German examiners for German level 6 listed on the LBA homepage). Any other language probably can't be added to the licence but proven with some kind of document.

After some lousy experiences flying in France (I don't speak French at all, so radio work was English), I vowed to never fly there again!

Sorry westie edited.

Doing fine haven't heard from pinky in years. She can be still heard on some teuchter local radio station.

And like you westie I avoid the bloody place if I can do below area Fl's

no problem.. I retire in 6 months anyway! :D

Hm. Hm hm hhhmmmmmm. Curious to learn how "lousy" these experiences actually were. Can't help wondering you were perhaps too lazy and/or too stupid to learn even the basics of a language you could easily have known would be required, and are pushing the blame as far away as you can.

Ever imagined how lousy the experience would be for a French-only speaker venturing into merry old England? Not to mention MJ country, of course.

Of course there are exceptions everywhere, but generally no European country has less welcome for non-local-speakers than the UK. (Or you should consider Russia to be European.) So don't be hard on the French, they are learning fast. Even if I must admit they had a long way to go, they have by now made better progress than the Brits. Again, this is speaking on a general note, and there will be exceptions everywhere.

I don't ask her anything about Germany!

She said that if you want to use French, then you need French in your licence.
I asked her to provide a reference for that. Nothing about Germany.

I don't see anything in that that says you must have French proficency in your licence to use a French only airport, or to speak French on the radio.

Is says that the DGAC can test one of their pilots for English or French. If a pilot wants a languange proficency in another language then the DGAC is directing them to another CAA.


Perhaps rather than asking me to translate nine pages of French law, you could direct me to which part of it you are stating is the law requiring a French languange endorsement to use a French only airfield?

@JO... my "lousy" experiences were only in part because of the language barrier. I did say "good day" in French, just to be nice, but that's about all I know (ok, about 4-5 other words perhaps). But it gets frustrating to give FIS an initial call on the proper frequency and not get a reply! Nothing! and it wasn't just once, it was a number of times. And then at one field, we almost got hit by a jet trainer because of the poor accent of the guy in the tower and the jet pilot "showing off" (overtaking us while we were on short final and scaring the living daylights out of us ... we didn't know his intentions). Long story which I won't go into now.....

If anyone would like a copy of the original ICAO doc, send me your email address in a pm.

Yes, I heard stories of this kind several times. Certainly in France, and weren't there similar tales from Spain? I agree they could at the very least have said "Station calling, say again" or their local equivalent.

OTOH pilots showing off are a danger everywhere, and we should all be on permanent alert for them - and for many other dangers - wherever we fly.

Yes, no problem. Take a look at section 3b of the law amendment:

Roughly translated: When privileges of a license are exercised in airspaces where the use of the French language is required, the license holder has to carry a proof of level 4 or higher of that language. If this proof is not part of the airman's file, the license holder is required to have passed a supplementary exam.

The above in combination with the AIP marking certain aerodromes as French only at certain times should be quite clear.

Strictly speaking, I think that if you fly into an FR-only airfield without a French language proficiency endorsement on your licence you could run into trouble if the authorities wanted to make life difficult for you. Whether that would ever actually happen is another matter entirely. It's unlikely, I'd have thought, unless you were involved in an accident. However....

From the text quoted by achimha above:

Epreuves de compétence linguistique
Quand les privilèges de la licence sont exercés dans les espaces aériens où l'usage de la langue française est requis, le titulaire d'une licence doit avoir apporté la preuve d'un niveau 4 ou plus dans cette langue.

If licence privileges are exercised in airspace requiring use of the French language, the licence holder must be able to demonstrate Level 4 or higher in this language

The text continues:

Lorsque cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.

All holders of a French PPL are automatically attributed Level 6 French language proficiency and the endorsement is mentioned on the licence. If you don't hold a French-issued licence I infer from the above that you are required to take a separate French language test ..le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.

Accordingly, the "Compétences linguistiques" section of my DGAC licence mentions
Anglais VFR
Français VFR

Posted at the same time as achimha :)