I'm not, but he was flying a PA-32, which is probably around 250/hr - okay, a bit more than four times. And per offence. Without doubt CAA does intend those fines to be a deterrent.

G

I find it mildly amusing that the administrative error, the lack of current medical/licence, is considered more serious by the GMC Committee than the actual act of low flying and busting airspace.

Like the latter would have been okay if the former was current :rolleyes:

foxmothI would have been very happy to represent him (in my former life).

I have no reason to suppose he did blatantly flout the rules. Whether he did or not, he certainly felt the full force of the law. He was fined a total of £5000, despite immediately admitting the offences, fully cooperating with the CAA investigation and pleading guilty. I don’t think anyone could sensibly regard the penalties as lenient. (He was probably ordered to pay costs in addition to the fines.)

In relation to the professional proceedings, I see considerable force in QDM’s point. I admire the doctor's courage in declining to accept the warning offered, even though that meant he would have to go through a hearing. The Investigation Committee, entirely properly IMHO, concluded that a warning was neither appropriate nor proportionate. Common sense ultimately prevailed.

GtEHe is a doctor in the sense that the title is (correctly) used by the overwhelming majority of the UK population.
(I realise that some people with academic doctorates like to be called 'Doctor' - instead of using the relevant post nominal letters - even when outside academic institutions.

The CAA doesn't decide the amount of the fine(s).
In my experience, fines in aviation cases vary greatly, not least because most courts have little or no experience of dealing with aviation matters.


RoffaThe magistrates court took the same view. The highest fine was for the lapsed medical/licence.
Perhaps the prosecutor suggested that was the most serious when giving the facts to the court?

That said, low flying and infringing airspace both vary considerably from minor to very serious depending upon the particular facts of the case.


FL

FL,

True. I guess my background and experiences just make me more inclined towards seeing the practical act as more of an issue than the administrative one*.

If he'd have flown sensibly nobody would have been any the wiser, not that that makes it okay of course.

* though as someone requiring a valid and current licence inc medical to exercise my competence I am aware of the implications of letting any part of it lapse!

FL - my sense of humour only regarding titles. Many people have titles, earned or unearned. Of the several I can choose from, 'Mr' is the only one not earned, and you sometimes need to be called something! At-least people generally understand Dr., and those who have it, earned it.

Regarding the lapsed medical, I wonder if there was a general view that as a physician, medical certification is the one he could, and should, have taken most seriously?

G

Not so sure
 

Or, perhaps a thought of "wow, if we can rinse 30 quid from a car driver for a parking ticket just IMAGINE what we can raise from a ppl?!?!?"

Not condoning the actions of the doctor who, from what i've read, demonstrated spectacularly poor airmanship. i can't help but feel big fines like that, instead of a community work placement, do smell more of revenue generation than punishment.......

Perhaps he was so utterly pi55ed off by burdensome regulation which although it had nothing whatever to do with his working life, none the less threatened to remove his livelihood, that he felt it necessary to make this (futile) gesture of disgust against the establishment.
Many pilots fly perfectly safely and legally by declaring themselves medically fit without any medical examination necessary (Medically related NPPL statistics are I understand better than Class 2 ones) Moves are afoot in the USA for further relaxation on medical matters, and of course what motive might anyone have for intentionally infringing?
Edit. I know nothing of the circumstances of this case and the whole episode was undoubtedly a complete debacle from any point of view.

I'd be interested to see where that comes from. I can see the argument that a class-2 medical may not increase safety enough to be proportionate, but I don't immediately see how there can be a causal link between having more medical scrutiny and having more accidents.

There could be an association - e.g. ppls may be likely to be older than nppls and will therefore have more cardiac events whilst flying.

I'm interested to hear that - I had thought that 'doctor' for a medical doctor was an honorary title, but a PhD was a 'proper doctor'. I know it's an offence to try to fraudulently pass oneself off as a medic... But that's a separate issue.

But going back on topic, amongst other things, you would want any doctor treating you to be competent, which implies not only knowledge but also common sense and a degree of attention to detail. I think it's quite an interesting question, to what extent these attributes carry over from one area of life to another. Not talking about this case in particular, I think there's a case to be made that the GMC (or equivalent) should be involved whenever a doctor calls their integrity or judgement into doubt.

Which isn't to say that the current setup for medical training, assessment and licensing isn't bureaucratic and frequently downright inhumane.

G the E wrote

Believe me, G the E , there are certain branches of the medical profession where the term Mr is very hard earned!.

Cusco (Mr)

Indeed they have, but I didn't.

G (Dr., Eur.Ing., Tashi, Sensei, Mr. and presumably Captain)

I think it was David Roberts who produced some statistics over on the Flyer forum a while ago. I have had a quick search but cannot find the relevant thread at the moment.

The good old Dr of philosophy v medical doctor.

Always hilarious amounts of fun, especially when there is a Medic with a Phd and a sense of humour stirring things up.

All very childish with renditions of Post man Pat.

Now even Dentists are calling themselves Doctor which must be a bit of a kick in the bollocks to the medics.

G the E - this thread is about a CAA prosecution. Get off your soap box about the titles!

(P.S. with the avatar 'boffin at large', I'm sure we all assumed you would have letters after your name...)

Soap box? I made a throwaway comment and somebody picked up on it. Then we had a traditional PPrune thread-drift.

And is it about the CAA prosecution,the GMC hearing, why the chap gave his licence back? Or for that matter why he got it wrong and committed the offences in the first place?

G

Why he got it wrong in the first place?

I wouldnt know Genghis. I'm not a psychologist. I don't have that title after my name...

Think it should be title before your name :p and letters after ;)

MJ who has letters after but no titles and hates it when certain folk in the industry send me letters addressed Capt MJ

Jings MJ! And corrected by you of all people :) good catch!

FL - are the fines means tested that the courts dish out? Possibly why they were so high?

Who gets the Captain title anyhow? I've only ever been addressed as Captain when I'm being bollocked, as in "were you the captain of the aircraft which broke rules X, Y and Z ?"

G

As someone who deals with both aviation and GMC cases I will add a couple of comment as follows:

Level of fines - undoubtedly the magistrates would have had regard to the defendant's means and would have pitched the level of the fine accordingly. Higher the income generally means the higher the fine.

GMC - the GMC would generally be concerned about matters that affect a Doctor's ability to practice and the confidence of the public in the medical profession. Therefore what might be seen as paperwork errors (overlooking an expired medical etc) are things that could directly translate into a Doctor's professional capabilities and may be more serious in a GMC context than other actions that would be outside the scope of a doctor's duties/responsibilities.

"MJ who has letters after but no titles and hates it when certain folk in the industry send me letters addressed Capt M"

Wouldnt that be M Capt J? or just Mad Cap?