Winter Flying
 

This will be my first winter as a PPL. Any thoughts or advice? Particularly carb ice and cold related issues !

Don't fly an aircraft with ANY ice on the airframe !!

Carb ice is nothing to do with the winter!

You should go to your flying school and ask for a refund (not kidding).

Like IO540 said. Or hit the books and look what they say about carb ice. I also think there's an AIC or something about it.

Winter offers fantastic flying opportunities, but you've got to keep track of the weather and seize the moment. You can't expect bookings three or more weeks in advance to work.

Best flying is just after a cold front has passed through. Unlimited visibility, crystal clear air, excellent aircraft performance, virtually no turbulence. And if the cold front dumped a lot of snow, you get an amazing scenery too.

Technically speaking, like A&C said, don't fly with ice on the airframe. Be careful with all kinds of scrapers as windshields are easily damaged: Ask the owner/operator how they want you to de-ice the plane. Revise your starting technique as winter is really hard on the batteries. Ideally you will want to start the engine immediately but this only works with proper priming and the right throttle/mixture setting. Be gentle on the engine too: warm it up properly, don't make rapid power changes if you can avoid it, shut it down properly. Know how the heater and defrost work - it's not always obvious, and sometimes quite different from what you find in your car.

On larger airports you may find that not all intersections and taxiways get equal priority in getting cleared. Even at your home airport, you might get different taxi routes than normal. If you go to minor airports, particularly grass strips, you might find the snow not cleared at all. Remove wheel spats in advance as they easily clog up, and keep a very careful eye on the brakes during the preflight.

Get to the airfield an hour earlier than normal to make sure you have time to de-ice the plane properly. Don't do a rush job with a credit card, make sure you get all the ice off, and don't neglect the elevator.

Don't fly through a snow shower, it's really not very fun.

The only big issue of carb ice in winter is a taxi over wet grass when the temp is in the right range. Talk to an instructor and look at the carb ice table, found in many locations such as LASORS. In flight it's more common in summer temps, but continue regular checks as usual.

Hi Tomboo,

I used to post here regularly and ask for help and advice but stopped, as you see from the second reply, some of these guys are so up their own arse’s you don't really get any useful help. It really pisses me off...........

As a new Pilot you do have a lot to learn now that you've got your licence, Well done BTW.... I know before I even type this I'll be corrected or told that its poor advice but WGAF. Some of the best flying days are clear blue skies in the winter, no thermals its as smooth as silk and really good fun. What you need to watch for is any visible moisture (rain or clouds) if its very cold, So don't fly on cold days when its raining or be tempted to fly through some fine clouds.

Flying is a continual learning process, enjoy it.

SF

speak for yourself, I was trying to give some constructive advice.

One more thing is make sure you take plenty of warm clothes when you fly. You never know when your heater will pack up, or worst case your engine fails and you end up somewhere cold waiting for help. Maybe even pack some sort of emergency supplies like they advise you do in your car, blanket, torch etc.

Also the low sun is very annoying. Think ahead if you're going to end up making an approach close to sunset with the sun right in your eyes. It may not seem normal to bring sunglasses in December, but I use them more than I did in June.

You may have inadvertently hit the nail which applies to so many questions on pilot forums.

Too many people post one-liners, which can be answered only with an essay. Obviously I have no idea whether the original poster wanted an essay but you don't need a PhD, or indeed much if any knowledge of aviation, to know that a one-liner such as

is hugely unlikely to elicit a useful one-line reply.

Some one-liners can be answered in a flash; e.g. if you ask what is the minimum # of hours for a JAA PPL, the answer is a simple 45.

But not this one.

There is actually a lot of experience on this forum but most of the writers have written a lot of stuff, over years, helping people out. Most are not going to bother when the original writer has just thrown in a one-liner question. Whether you like it or not, that's human nature.

If somebody wants a half decent reply on a somewhat wide topic, they need to make a bit of an effort, and show that they have given the questions some careful consideration. Probably easier said than done if posting off an iphone but there lies another common problem..... :ugh:

You didn't say where you fly? Give the briefings more time, choose an alternate as if it were your destination, because very likely it will be, and like the others say, never fly with any ice at all. If you do encounter icing conditions, remember that your safe escape could be to climb, not descend.

Take this as an incentive to start on that instrument rating also!

Doc

Hi RTN11,

I was not talking about you as yours was not the second reply,

Your advice was constructive and I think helpful to Tomboo.

SF

I would not say "zero ice" is a must.

What is important is to not have it on the flying surfaces (wings, elevator).

Having some on the hull is OK, within reason, in general. It does increase friction but it won't increase the stall speed (of either the wing or the elevator) which is what normally gets people who have not de-iced their plane properly.

That's much better IO540........... some useful advice....

SF

Which bit... the one about people writing one-line questions can't be expecting useful answers, or the one about ice?

:) who knows

Ice is obviously the hot topic.

The fact is it's a complete unknown. On a PA28, you could probably get away with 1mm, maybe 2mm or even more but where is the point where it is too much and you will notice the affect, possibly leading to a spin and fatal accident.

That's why it's better in this case to be over cautious and make sure there is absolutely no ice anywhere on the airframe.

When flying in below freezing temps, consider carefully the need to follow the flight manual recommendations for possibly adding alcohol to deice the fuel. Avgas with ice crystals has put me on the ground twice (the second time, alcohol had been prohibited, I had that reversed!).

Winter is a magnificent time to fly, as cold as -15C just gets better. -40C is getting too cold...

no carb icing here!

Mad Dogs and Glider Pilots - YouTube

RTN11
 

I read all sorts of rubbish on these forums about Nif-Naf & trivia invalidating the C of A because of some sort of leagal rubbish.

Ice invalidates the flight manual because of the laws of physics.

Only one of the rule infractions carrys the death penalty.

...with none.

It's quite well known.

Airframe ice and winter flying are only somewhat related. My worst experience with ice had us falling 6000 feet, in control, at maximum power, and below best rate climb speed. It was August, over the south of France. We fell to warmer air, and continued on, much the wiser.

If you are flying VFR, and encounter ice, and turn around to exit at the first sign, you will be safe. Other than that, this is a whole different discussion, and not really centered on winter flying.

Anyone who intentionally continues flight in icing conditions in a non equipped aircraft is a fool.

That was my point.

I've seen guys go flying without clearing the hoar frost and get away with it.

The chances are, you could possibly get away with a small amount of ice on an aircraft not cleared for it.

However, you are entering completely unknown terriotory by doing so, and so the safest bet by far is to make sure you clear all the ice from the whole airframe before you fly, and do not enter icing conditions while enroute unless you have the kit to deal with it.

Plus, you're adding to the chance that something will go wrong, and if it does you're in serious trouble. Even if the accident is not fatal, how is the aircraft owner/insurance company going to view you knowingly going flying with hoar frost still on the wings. It simply isn't worth the risk.

In these debates, everybody who wants to look good will always take the position of an absolutely clean airframe.

It is a bit like arguing against CRB checks for PE teachers ;)

But, as I said, there is a world of difference between muck on the wings etc, and muck on the hull. The latter is just a bit of friction. People fly with planes covered in dead flies... The former is what is going to get you because it messes up the lift.

And different planes have different tolerances.

I don't fly a PA28 (nowadays) but a few mm as absolute maximum sounds reasonable.

This is structural ice. Carb ice is a completely different issue.

It is not a case of looking good, it is a case of flying an aircraft with unknown propertys due to the changed wing shape.

I would agree that a small amount of hore frost on the fuselarge is not likely to result in any aerodynamic problems with the flying of the aircraft however will it result in problems with the static ports and give errors in the ASI readings ?

Older low tech wings are likely to be less effected by ice however the newer composite aircraft are using wing sections that are far more advanced and the shape is far more critical so much so that gliders are fitted with devies that clean flys from the leading edges in flight to maintain performance.

The whole ice subject is so fraught with unknowns that the only policy in my view is no ice unless the flight manual offers some advice on the subject.

I've been flying a lot recently and always do through the winter. Some of my tips would be:

• Fill up the tank after flying. Full tanks get less condensation in them.
• Clean the windscreen well before every sortie. Flying into a low sun with a dirty windscreen is very difficult - especially if there is poor visibility anyway.
• If you will be landing into sun late in the day you might want to have second thoughts about departing!
• Enough has been said about ice / frost on the airframe.
• If on grass it will be wet - allow for the longer landing distance.
• If muddy at the end of the day, and frost is expected, do you really want to give it a good wash and fill all the hinges and other orifices with water?

Can you explain how you have come to this conclusion? I assume you have test flown a PA28 with more than 2mm of ice adhering to the airframe.

Wrong - ice always increases the stall speed by reducing Cl and increasing weight.
Friction? Ice increases friction- so your car stops more quickly on ice does it?


Many years ago the CFI of the Edinburgh flying school was seen to be religiously sweeping all the snow from the wings of a C152. Minutes later he spun in on take off.

Greetings,

please check:

List of Safety Sense Leaflets | Publications | CAA

Safety sense leaflet 03 - Winter Flying

:ok:

On the wing/elevator, yes.

Thanks for all the helpful advice, see, a one liner can inspire some useful responses and also start an argument! Amazing. Further more, when I read a post I don't like I don't respond!

As for the direct criticism of my own flight training, I'm afraid you misunderstood my question, rtn11 got it. I simply wanted to know if there were any issues that the PPL syllabus doesn't cover.

I would hope that we are all calm, friendly and reasonable in the air! It seems to me a lot of the threads degenerate into a willie waving competition, with some really useful stuff thrown in!!!!

Happy days

Plus
Safety Sense Leaflet 14: Piston Engine Icing

Dont worry about that incorrect remark, carb icing has plenty to do with winter-autumn spring and summer too-its not seasonal, it is temperature and humidty related. As we all should know in this country you can get any of the so called seasons anytime. Ive got summer flowers in flower in my garden and its December!

I've certainly flown with at least 1mm of rime ice on the leading edge. Didn't fall out of the sky, and as soon as we descended it melted right away.

The whole point is that it is a complete unknown, noone knows how much you can get away with until it's too much and there's a serious problem.

Obviously, if it had been much more than 2mm, and we had intentionally stalled, things could of been more lively, but this was a simple IMC lesson, and picked up a small bit of ice shortly before commencing the approach, so I saw no big issue in continuing as normal knowing warmer air was only a few hunderd feet below.

I agree with that, but let me inject a little bit of reality.

How long has the PA28 been out? A few decades. Countless tens of thousands are (or have been) flying.

I simply do not buy that 2mm is going to bring one down. I am not a 20,000hr pilot (and anyway most of those do it in a big jet) but I have seen enough IFR, and since nearly all formal IFR I do is high altitude (Eurocontrol flights) I have seen plenty of icing. Summer or winter, some icing on almost every flight, FL140+.

Most of it is just light, but 1-2mm is really easy to pick up. You can get it in seconds. I wouldn't bat an eyelid at 2mm; it is barely visible as a bit of frost in between the rivets on the leading edge, and it doesn't show up on the speedo at all. And the shape of my wings is not much different from a PA28.

If you fly a plane which will plummet at 2mm (and I am sure there are some laminar designs that will do that) you better forget all flying in IMC below 0C unless you have full TKS (£30k or so - more than most PA28s are worth) and you use it - ~ £200 per hour is what it costs. Or rubber boots, and they better be working (many aren't) but few modern and potentially ice-sensitive designs use boots.

My guess is that 2mm of rime is going to increase PA28 Vs by a few kt. So you won't be doing a max performance landing into Deanland :)

I am also pretty sure there is plenty of urban knowledge on this, but they are not going to be posting it here because most are renters and are going to get a bad name :)

What you can't do is just sit there and let it build up and up and up, with no way out (which usually means a descent into warmer air). If in IMC below 0C you have to watch it like a hawk and be considering your options. But that applies to any non-deiced plane. One cannot embark on a flight in potentially freezing IMC, for 1-2hrs, with no way out.

If you have an IR, then you would file for FL100+ and climb up through the thin layer discussed and sit there in sunshine. With the IMCR you are basically a "VFR" flight as far as ATC are concerned (declaring yourself "IFR" does not get you anything) and you get pushed down below CAS, and that is the one area where an IR is useful in the UK over an IMCR. With the IMCR, winter flying is mostly going to be below cloud unless one can be sure one can climb above it without going into CAS.

http://http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa11.pdf

http://http://aircrafticing.grc.nasa.gov/courses.html


http://http://video.google.com/video...59021331008391

All the best.

This might also be of interest: Aircraft Icing Training - Courses

Simple advice - if you are a newish ppl holder, dont fly the aeroplane with ice on it. Some aircraft are more tolerant than others, but why take the risk? I disagree with IO540, trying to put a figure on what is an acceptable amount of ice on a PA28 can lead to deaths, thats why its not in the POH - how do you measure the ice? where do you measure it? Those are all valid questions. Why not just follow the POH? CLEAR the ice / frost off before flight. If you are in flight and you get some ice that was not predicted, do something to change whats happening before your trying to fly a giant ice cube, climb, descend or turn back, dont blindly push on in an aircraft not equipped for ice thinking it will get better. Its too big a gamble.

If you want extreme for airflow disruption due to objects on a wing, try the Rutan Longeze, the SLIGHTEST precipitation in the air reduces cruise by 10kts, and you often feel the aircraft trying to pitch nose down with a reduction in airspeed BEFORE you even see the visible precipitation.

To say that the TB20 has a similar wing to the PA28 is even more ludicrous of IO540. Even small changes in planfom, aspect ratio, chord thicknes or most important of all airfoil section can have dramatic effect on an aircraft performance and tolerance to different things.

We are talking cross-purposes (as usual).

I didn't write that one should takeoff with any ice on the wings or the elevator.

I was referring to the hull (the cockpit exterior, etc).

My other comments on how much ice a PA28 could perhaps carry refer to in-flight icing, and decisions based on that.

I will leave this discussion now, because like I said it is like arguing against CRB checks on PE teachers.

I have experienced prop ice on a PA28 when there was no more than a hint of frosting on the leading edge of the wing. Not pleasant!
I have also had the engine breather ice up. The result was oil being pumped out of the front crankshaft oil seal over the cowling and windscreen.
Ultimately if you don't takeoff with ice on the flying surfaces and don't fly in rain or cloud when it's below zero you should be OK.
Ice often forms first around the OAT probe above the screen on PA28s.It is a good early warning.
If you do fly in cloud in winter, always have an escape plan.
D.O.
ps Not flying today. Runway covered in ice and snow.

IMHO this thread is beginning to degenerate from what is safe or not safe towards a potentially dangerous set of "what-you-can-get-away-with" opinions.

The Summary on the final page of the Safety Sense Leaflet 3 - Winter Flying says it all.

Please read it. Do not fly with ice or frost or snow on the aircraft and do not fly in icing conditions. It is really quite simple.


JD
:)

Yes. This to me is one of the few, but major problems with PPRuNe. The "P" does stand for professional, does it not? There are many things I have done, and survived, but that does not mean that I'm going to describe them here, or suggest that they are safely possible. I'm not going to mention them at all, or simply state that based upon my experience, they should not be attempted. It's the only moral and and "professional" thing to do.

I have first hand knowledge of the skill and experience of about ten PPRuNers, the rest of you are a guess to me. I will not be the one who describes something I know may be possible, albeit with lots of skill, many variables, and a big risk, to an audience of people whose skill and experience is unknown to me. It is the safe, conservative, and professional thing to do, to first say, follow the Flight Manual, and there after, generally "if you have to ask - no".

Similar to fooling around in icing, we recently had a thread inviting comments about aerobatics in non aerobatic aircraft. We do not need to "ramp up" the excitement on PPRuNe, by increasing the threshold of risk the participants should accept as normal. If anything, based upon increasing tribal knowledge, the threshold should be reducing, unless new technology is mitigating it. We have deiced aircraft, use them for icing conditions, we have aerobatic aircraft, use them for aerobatics, we have floatplanes, use them for water landings.

Some silly pilot sees or reads about water skiing wheel planes (Ok, I'm assuming), and then an a plane is up side down in the Derwent river. Apparently that pilot tried something else that did not work either. He did not know that the technique is not possible in tricycle aircraft! I sure hope the advice to attempt that was not presented on PPRuNe.

My entire job is to test and evaluate modified aircraft to assure that they do what they are supposed to, don't do what they should not, and have a margin of safety to allow for variance in pilot skill. I sure am not gong to participate here in enticing pilots of completely unknown (to me) skill and judgement, into those risky corners I spend my working day trying to keep them out of!

Contributors here would, in my opinion, do best to offer advice, which conforms as closely as possible to the approved and accepted practices usually presented in the Flight Manual, or national regulations.

From the CAA safety booklet:

e) Ensure that the entire aircraft is properly de-iced and check visually that all snow, ice and even frost, which can produce a severe loss of lift, is cleared. This includes difficult-to-see ‘T’ tails. If water has collected in a spinner or control surface and then frozen, this produces serious out-of-balance forces. There is no such thing as a little ice.

I had to stop a private hirer today. He was happily sat in the aircraft, having deiced the wings, about to start up. He had completely negelected to deice the elevator, which in many ways is more serious than wing ice.

Thorough de-icing of the whole aircraft should simply be standard, even the fuselage (although good covers prevent most of this).