PPL application rejected
 

Having passed my skills test recently, I applied for my PPL with all the usual documentation, log book etc. After a rather long day at work today I returned home to a Fed-ex package from the CAA.

Excellent I thought, my license has arrived.

How utterly despondant I now feel to find that the package did not contain my license, it did however contain my log book, ID and a letter from the CAA stating that my application has been rejected on the basis that the FE's priviliges expired 6 or so weeks prior to me undertaking my skills test, and he was therefore not authorised to examine me.

I am now unsure where this leaves me, and I face stewing over it all weekend until I can make contact with the CAA and the FE on Monday morning.

Has anyone ever heard of this happening before, and does this mean I am going to have to go through skills test with all associated expenses all over again?

Any re-assuring comments would be greatly appreciated right now!

Wow. What a left field thing. I hope they will all see sense on this.

If this doesn't get resolved, it would be reasonable to expect the FE to reimburse your expenses. How did you come to use this FE?

This kind of thing has happened "around the place", and various people ended up with invalid licenses or ratings which they had to re-do, sometimes a year or more later when it came to light, but I have not yet heard of a case at a straight UK PPL flying school.

You are obviously entitled to a total refund of all expenses connected with re-doing the flight test.

It is especially bad because it is hard to imagine a UK FE not knowing when his FE privileges expire. In the other cases I know about it was 99.9% certain that the person concerned was fully aware he could not do testing.

Bloody disgrace ! Your expected to keep your papers in order so you would expect a F/E to do the same , he or the club should pay up for a re sit ! Surely the club must keep tabs on there examiners to see if there in date for insurance purpose's
Gutted for you :(

I would advise thus...

Speak directly to the owner of club/school first thing Monday morning and appraise him/her of the situation. Have the CAA letter to hand. Politely make your point that you expect the club/school to meet all the costs of the retake and reapplication, whatever they may be. Be polite but forceful...do not accept any negotation or waffle. When the postion is agreed, get it in writing on company paper.

If the outfit is decent there will be no dispute...just embarrassment (on their part) an apology, and a sincere desire to put things right.

And, if the outfit is found wanting, just point out the readers of Pprune will enjoy reading the details.

As you are in England the small claims court will easily recover any costs they do not make good.

That sucks. In America, Licensure is an administrative excursion, subject to waiver and hearing, and appeal.

I have heard of an examiner's license being "bridged", and work accomplished outside the time of expiry can be honored. Worth a try.

Good Luck.

.Regrettably, how can they ?

If we accept that a regulatory authority has to exist at all, then even the Campaign Against Aviation has to follow their own rules; if they allow unauthorised examiners, however competent at 'handling the hardware' they may be, to conduct flight tests, then what is the point of their very existence ? ( many will debate that, I know ! )

If you read accident reports to the last word, there is usually - almost a first - clause that " the crew licences were inspected and found to be in order" in other words if a 20,000 hours pilot-in-command of a transport aircraft had a crash because the engine fell off over the threshold due to no fault of his own, or the engine stopped because of ice in the fuel even, if the co-pilots' licence - who wasn't even handling - was proved to be so much as one minute out of date - that is the prime cause of the accident, everyone else, including the insurance companies, can all go home. End of story.

You think I'm joking.

One of my early mentors impressed on me that far from thinking about how I would handle an abnormal event, my first thoughts must always be what I would tell the subsequent Court of Inquiry. Sadly true.

The fault here lies with the FE, or his employer, and they must make reparations.

Commiserations and Best of Luck, whatever the outcome there is no recompense for your waste of time and effort.

Yes, I agree.


I have come across a similar case - a CRM instructor who failed his re-rate which was based upon an assessed course he was given. CAA required the members of that course to re-sit, and the CRM instructor had to go off and requalify. An utter embuggerance for all concerned but eventually rectified.

You'll certainly have to re-do your test, and are legally and morally entitled to your money back. The exam fees should be easy, the aircraft costs may be a bit harder since you still got logged time and still burned fuel, but personally I'd recommend digging your heels in about that as well -albeit very politely. Asking for the club to pay for the resit, including the aircraft time, as suggested above, is an elegant solution to this.

G

All endorsements require the expiration date of the examiner, check your logbook, and see that your CFI doesn't include it each flight. Recompense for each oversight, imo.

Whatever you do, first make sure that the situation is indeed as described in the CAA letter. Both the FE and the people at the CAA are human and make mistakes. It may also be a simple case of the FE having properly extended his authorization, but the paperwork stating this getting lost en route to the CAA. Or something simple like that. In my experience FIs and FEs don't normally let their licenses and authorizations lapse by accident, but continue teaching and examining on them.

So something (embarassing?) happened, certainly, but do not make it worse for yourself by going in with guns blazing. Figure out what truly happened before making demands.

What a nightmare, I feel really sorry for you! Is it not always impressed upon US as the STUDENT to keep our paperwork bang up todate and that the PIC should check ALL paperwork before a flight??? Whenever I do my Skills test, I may jsut check that all the examiner's paperwork is in order. He may think i'm barking but...

We have had issues over club aircraft paperwork found to be wanting. So I suppse everyonie can make a mistake, but when it comes down to someones Skills test and the issue of a PPL, I would have thought it was even more imperative that all paperwork was thoroughly checked before the flight.

Well, good luck with your quest for justice, and even better luck with your next skills test.

...and if you paid by credit card then you may have a way to claim the amount paid back via the card if the goods promised were not delivered.


Good luck, I hope the school do the decent thing and that all you have to do is the test again.

The OP wrote this a few weeks ago:
In fairness to other students, you ought to at least make others at Halfpenny Green aware of what the CAA have told you, and do so right away.

I wonder if you now see the £180 as a more realistic figure considering the extra work involved in finding your guy was (allegedly) out of date, rather than just issuing a licence.


I suspect that in the lawyer friendly state of California, you'd be swamped with offers to sue the "examiner" for punitive damages due to the distress and mental anguish of needing to sit your test again.

I'm not sure where the CAA are supposed to have failed in what we have been told so far. I am sure the examiner knew when his rating would expire, although he may well have forgotten.

The CAA would have issued him a document, with the rating expiry date clearly marked on it. What can the CAA do if he continues to operate beyond that date?

Yep. If his authorization was expired, he knew it and still conducted exams, the only term I can think of to describe that situation is "fraud".

Silvaire1 wrote:
Like it says in the Andrex advert, "The job's not complete until the paperwork is all done."


I'm not sure that Jail is an option, but I suppose someone will come along shortly with details on the level of offence involved and which court would see the prosecution.

Aside from aviation, there is a matter of fraud, in the commercial exchange here. Potentially fraud by the school/club as well as misrepresentation by the FE.

Where the FE has (allegedly) received pecuniary advantage for a service he is not entitled to provide, and in signing the licence application and test certificate, he has "uttered a false instrument" to the CAA and the Student.

A good defence would be "mens rea" as obviously he would know he'd get caught and would therefore not do this willingly. Ignorance is no excuse, but it would mitigate allegations of intentional fraud.



C'mon Flying Lawyer, tell us how it really is.

Legally:

I think that for a "deception" case to stand up you need to prove that the examiner knew, and was aware of the wrongdoing. As I already said, this was never going to go un-noticed at Gatwick so who would believe it was intentional?

He "ought to have known" will probably not be enough to convict him/her or fraud.


Morally:

This examiner needs to take up another line of work. I know that's a loss to GA of an examiner, and what are the chances of re-offending?

But the shame value alone would make a reasonable man's eyes water.

Should the club / school need to reimburse flight time and instructor (& CAA) fees for all students over a 12 week period, than bankruptcy must be looming and only the lawyers and accountants will get anything.

They have only the word of someone currently not in a position to make the decision. We have been told that the examiner's rating had expired but could expired possibly be CAA polite terminology for suspension for some reason known to them but not available to the general public?
Claverley, do as has been suggested and go out there and get the test passed then come back here and let us all know.

Huge can of worms!
 

DX, I don't think it matters what the technicalities are. In black and white, the examiner (allegedly) was not authorised to conduct the tests.

In that case, I wonder if he was current as an instructor/pilot.

When you book your test - and pay your fee - you are allocated an examiner, date and time by the CAA, surely? This should prevent this sort of cock up happening at source.

This is where the CAA has failed. Period. So what will they be doing about it?

There is too much nonsense coming from the CAA with licencing at all levels. If you hold a monopoly, the very least you can do is get your own life in order. The original poster is entitled to feel pissed off; chances are he will have to resit the test. I hope his theory exams. are still in date.

In my opinion, the CAA are liable for all costs; the FTO shouldn't be held responsible for the CAA's failure to pursue their own protocol. Time for the CAA to pull their finger out. What they do with the FE is their problem.

Don't call me Shirley.
 

rmcb,


which planet are you on?

This one...

When I did my CPL and IR skill tests, this was the process; when I did my PPL skill test, granted, the FTO dealt with the booking, but I have no reason to think the process isn't the same.

rcmb - either you are suffering from amnesia or you did your PPL outside the UK because the test is not booked through the CAA nor does the CAA allocate the examiner and you certainly do NOT pay up front. I did my PPL at HGFC who had their own examiners, the test was booked for a mutually convenient time and I paid AFTER I had done the test. At the time (2006) this was standard procedure at EGBO. I had a great, most reassuring examiner of unquestionable integrity who did his best to make me feel at ease throughout the test. Sadly for Claverley he is no longer there.

It is true, I did my PPL in 2004 in the US. When the test was booked, however, we had to wait until the next day for confirmation from the CAA. If the booking system doesn't exist at PPL level, maybe it should.

The CAA can consider themselves forgiven on this count and the FTO/FE returned to the dock!

Form FCL504 Issue 7 (SRG1102)
 

The important bit here is "with intent to deceive" in the first line. I think that will be hard to prove.

Silvaire1, within the bounds of what has been alleged in the Original Post, the CAA have done nothing wrong.

The CAA issued the examiner with a rating and it has an expiry date, clearly written on it. He is alleged to have continued operating after the expiry of this.

There is another possibility here. If the examiner has had his rating renewed by another examiner, who has in turn, failed to deliver the paperwork to Gatwick, that would explain the CAA thinking the OP's examiner was not (and indeed would not be) legal.

There may be no malpractice in any of this, but nevertheless, the OP's skills test pass is not valid. This is why the CAA state that you must not fly as PIC until you have the signed your licence.


I'm not sure where that stands for ratings. Acting in good faith, I have flown after an examiner signed my ratings page. I am not aware of any means of me checking his lawful ability to do so.

However, when I passed my skills test, I took (by road) all my document to Turweston, where a very nice lady checked them over for me prior to sending them to Gatwick. The first step in her checking process was to type in the registered number of the examiner to check he was authorised and current for signing the forms. The staff at Turweston have/had an online system allowing them to verify the CAA status of any examiner that they need to check up on. Perhaps we all need access to that, in some form.

If the situation is as has been suggested in the OP, then some blame may be attached to slack admin by the FTO as they ought to be on top of this stuff as well as the individual examiners and instructors should be.

I'd expect a trawl by all FTOs early next week, wanting to see the documents for all licensed staff.

Since 1999 Examiners have been independent of schools, though they may work for, or even own a school. The CAA used to send all Examiners a reminder 6 weeks prior to the authorisation expiry date to prompt Examiners to complete the revalidation in time. Recently, I have spoken to a number of Examiners who have not received any notification at all. The Examiner nevertheless has a personal responsibility to ensure that his licence, ratings and relevant authorities are valid when conducting a test.

I suspect that if the Examiner completes his revalidation, the CAA will have its money, and the process can continue, there is no "safety reason" for not doing so, it is purely an administrative matter. If that is not the case, then the Examiner should return the candidate's fee and reimburse the expenses incurred.

Airpolice - is the booking process at PPL level in the UK administered by the FTO or the CAA?

I ask because this could be very relevant to Claverley04's problem resolution.

rmcb, in some cases, neither.

I am aware of a person turning up, out of the blue, at a school recently wanting a wet hire of an aircraft in order to do a skills test.

He had made a cash deal with an examiner, (well respected local guy, known to the school) to do his test with.

The guy was a complete stranger to the school staff, but as the examiner was signing for the a/c, they were, quite rightly, happy to allow it.

On the brighter side... the OP has been through a full skills test under proper test conditions and he "passed". He can be confident now that he'll sail through the second test.

In the US, not Europe........


I am a little surprised by this. Just as I inspect a candidates documents when I conduct a flight test I provide my documents for inspection. Which means I look at them first to make sure they are all in order! Even examiners occasionally make mistakes.

I would hardly see this incident as a case of fraud, rather an innocent mistake on the part of the examiner.

You would not believe the number of pilots I come across flying around on expired licences and class ratings........

What is it with this forum these days, it's like redneck hanging party....... :rolleyes:

Yes calm down girls, stop jumping to conclusions, you cannot make judgemnets without the facts and you havnt got any really have you?

Let's treat the examiner in the way we would all be like to be treated-he probably made a mistake, although I appreciate mistake is a one way word for many on here!

If you intend to pursue any legal action your first port of call is to the examiner or school to allow them the opportunity to put the matter right. If you do not allow them that opportunity you may fail with any subsequent action you take through the county court. You need to put everything in writing and get responses in writing, its difficult to prove what somebody said over the phone!

After a reasonable amount of time if they have failed to put the situation right you are then entiled to make alternative arrangements yourself and claim for the total cost of doing this which even includes your expenses for driving to the airfield for the skills test and reposting the application.

Also you should have a receipt from the examiner for the test fee-if you havnt got a receipt and you paid cash, guess what? Every skills test is recorded at the CAA and they are great pals with the inland revenue!

By the way you have a PM

Thankyou for that, Airpolice.

It would appear to me that blame would therefore lie solely at the feet of the FE; the FTO can only assume that by agreeing to conduct the test the FE is qualified. Then it is reasonable for the hapless candidate to assume the same 'because the FTO wouldn't do anything illegal...'.

So, the candidate could call on the FE to return the cost of the FE fees but may have to resort to legal channels to recover the costs of transpoprt to/from, aircraft hire and any application fees taken to date. More costs that the FE could argue are 'not my problem'.

What if the candidate chose (unwisely, granted, but within the rules) to take the test on the last day of theory exam. validity? Retake the lot before retaking the skills test. More cost. Can he/she then return to the FE for those costs?

As mentioned earlier in the thread, licences can be revoked years later when these issues come to light - even when the most affected party has pursued the privileges in good faith.

What a nightmare. So avoidable with the supposed strong grip of the regulatory regime and the internet; time to change the system. It may cost more, but I believe we need more support from the CAA.

rmcb

Ease up on the posts old chap. You were utterly wrong about the CAA earlier (as you now see) and now your assertion that it is just the FE is equally questionable. At every half decent FTO, somebody (maybe the CFI, maybe Ops, maybe the owner) will have records of instructor/examiner currency, which will be kept up to date and regularly checked.

The FE will be only wholly to blame if he:

a. Is a lone wolf, operating as sole trader.
b. Has wifully misled his employer.

What's more, even if it is b. (above), the OPs beef will still legally be with the FTO (ie the trading company) and not with an employee of such...it is the law in the UK.

There is nothing complicated about this unless the FTO choose to make it so. In which case that is what the Small Claims Court is for, and it works!

As for the CAA, whatever they may or may not be guilty of, all they have done here is their job. And by catching this in a timely manner, they have potentially stopped all manner of future grief for the OP.

When conducting a test, the Examiner is acting on behalf of the CAA who issue the authorisation to a specific person. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the FTO/RF, who are acting as a third party in recommending an examiner. The Candidate is free to use an examiner of his own choice.

The Old Fat One - I fell foul of a very similar cockup, not of my making, and paid through the nose to rectify the situation.

I stand by wot I have writ and maintain the system needs changing.

Signing off.

I know I've become a bit of an evangelist for electronic logbooks these days - but I've set mine (in Excel) to flash the date red at me if any of the expiry dates (medical, licence, class rating, instructor rating, IMC rating....) have expired.

Which does illustrate the point that any fairly well qualified pilot has a lot of these to monitor.

Anybody here ever accidentally driven their car past its MoT, had a rush to get your medical renewed? I certainly have. And dealt with it because perhaps I'm not as conscientious in the rest of my life as I am with my flying.

It happens, and just as an examiner will judge their student on how well they deal with their mistakes - the world will judge this school and examiner similarly. I hope they're not found wanting, because they certainly will have a perfectly good opportunity to sort themselves out.

G

What none of us knows is by how much the rating had expired. I'm sure that at some time or other most people will have thought eg: "It's Thursday today" or "It's 14th today" when it has actually been Friday or 15th. So, it may well be that such an error meant that the rating was a very short time out of date because of a genuine mistake but because it was out of date the CAA was compelled to act.

As said before, the CAA don't check FEs before every PPL test - we are however checked after each test, since part of the post-test paperwork is sending a copy of the test form to the CFE (or SFE now!) at Bournemouth, where sampling is undertaken to check that PPL tests are being conducted within the bounds of the schedule. As a new FE I would be mortified if I conducted a test I wasn't allowed to do, and would make every effort to make the situation right.

I don't suppose though this is the same FE though who recently insisted he could conduct a MEP Rating LST despite having done the training course himself? Being a FTO HoT doesn't sadly guarantee perfect knowledge, although customers have every right to expect it.