Many moons ago when spinning was still part of teh PPL I did all my basic training plus night & some of IMC in a PA38 and it was superb. Yes a PA28 is more stable, but as WWW said surely you want something to hone your skills on.

Who learns to drive in an automatic car?

WWW

I find your comments on the PA38 very sensible.

Your racist slur on Americans (by implication) I find most offensive.

So Americans are a distinct "race" are they? They seem a pretty mixed bag to me......!

F3G, no friend thats called Banter not a slur. Probably wasted on Americans.

Do you know what Irony is Hank? Yeah its like Coppery and Brassery but made of Iron...

WWW

WWW

"Pray enter
You are learned Europeans and we worse
Than ignorant Americans"

The City Madam (1658)III.iii

Bouncy Landing

The Oxford dictionary gives a definition of race as "a group of people connected by common descent."

So unless we wish to get into an argument of semantics, I consider my comment fit for purpose, if not a uniquely correct definition for I do respect others opnions and perspectives.

F3G

Yeah, whatever.

WWW

ps just where do Americnas get off convicting Jemma Bush for drinking a beer in public at the age of 18 and sending her on community service plus a fine plus mandatory attendence of an Alcohol Awareness Course - Jeez! Old enough to drive, be a parent, fight for your country, vote and own a veritable arsenal of heavy duty automatic firearms but you go order a Bud with your pizza and its the downtown slammer for you! Plucked up if you ask me.

F3G

I'd challenge that Americans are "a group of people connected by common descent".

My understanding is that they are a widely disperate people, from all over the world.
Anyway enough said, well off the topic of a great little trainer, the PA38.

All aeroplanes twist and groan as you load them up. The lovely little machine I learnt on years ago (Millicer's Victa Airtourer) had the tailend tin gauge increased to ease marketing concerns about the extent of oil canning - so long as the relevant maintenance and inspections are done on the Tomahawk and the pilots operate within the anticipated design envelope, then it shouldn't be a concern if the tail deflects during a spin.

More importantly, to learn on a comparatively demanding aircraft makes a great deal of sense. In my insular view of the world, I think we all should still look at spins and basic aeros - even if just for the confidence building value .....

JT's recommendation is one with which I heartily agree. On the left hand side of the Atlantic it seems there is a demand for this sort of training because:-

a). It is hard to find.
b). You pay through the nose for it if you can find it.

For developing handling confidence, whatever you're flying, the mastery of the spin, for example, goes a long way.

PS: Whilst this thread started as a debate over differing models of Pipers, what percentage of UK trainers are Pipers?

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[email protected]

Final three greens, if you can't stand the heat....well you klnow the rest....or DO YOU?

Just to add something of a postscript to this thread, before it gets sent to Jetblast.... ;)

I've now had a lesson in a PA-28 and I'm still confused. The problem, you see, is that I had a great lesson - things just worked (instructor might disagree ;) ), and I rattled through everything we had covered in the briefing. Even had enough time left to run through some new stuff; a circuit-rejoin, followed by a ciruit and approach to land, although the last bit was pretty pi$$ poor, TBH. Compared to my (few) lessons on the Tomahawk I just sailed through things.

Now this may just be that I'm getting better at this flying thing. Hard to tell after one go. I've got another lesson on the Warrior to see what happens.
I fully agree with what has been said about the merits of the Tomahawk, and I'd generally agree that it is better to learn on the harder aircraft if it makes do things better in the long run. We'll see if this difference in pace carries on, though, because that may make me think again. Think I may be asking more questions.....

Many thanks everybody for your thoughts. They are very much appreciated.

All the best,

Evo.