Am I a (trainee) Aerobatic Snob???
 

Hi Folks,

I am seriously considering an Aeros course in the summer (telling her indoors it's a precision flying couse). The question is what aircraft to use.

I know that you can do aeros in a Robin or Ces150 but would rather pay extra for a ride in a Pitts or Cap, or howabout a Tiger Moth or Stampe.

Am I right in thinking of an AC designed for aeros or am I doing the Robin etc an injustice by not considering them?

BtB

Aerobats, Robins etc. will fly basic aeros but nothing requiring sustained inverted flight as they don't have the fuel and oil systems. Generally the flashier the machine the easier it is to fly aeros in them, so it's easier to learn aeros in a Pitts or CAP however it's not easier to fly them i.e. takeoff & landing, so you'll have to spend a bit of dosh to do that bit first. I suppose it comes down to moolah really; if you've got lots of it, go for the more capable machine (they're much more fun to fly as well).

Why not try a Stampe? Good performance for an old lady biplane, not up to Pitts standards, but competitive none the less. The advantages are that everything happens in slooooooooow motion, so you can see (& feel) where your mistakes are happening, and believe me they will happen at the start. With the Pitts, and any other high performance aero aircraft, things are happening so fast its impossible to tell whats going on, and what it looks like from the ground. Thats why all the hot-shot aero aces nowadays fly Sukhois & CAP's - easy peasy lemon squeezy! - Put em in a Tiger Moth or a Stampe and they cant hack it! . .On the other hand, you could try a Zlin 526! Now theres an aeroplane.............

BtB I would suggest you also consider the Yak52.. .There a few places that use them and they are really solid and great fun.

Take a Look at some of my video's if you are interested. <a href="http://www.bishopsgateoffice.com/Gary/Yak52_Aeros_Video.htm" target="_blank">Yak52 Aeros Videos </a>

Whenever this topic comes up there appears to be a measure of consensus that aerobatting in something with low energy that's a bit marginal can be very good for your aeros, but there's also the sheer fun factor to be considered, and something a bit rorty and chuckable can assist on the cheesy grin front. Cap 10s aren't that hard to take off and land in. This must be true, as even I can do it (after getting the tailwheel tick on a Cub). The Cap is most exceedingly and greatly and considerably delightful to fly in. A Tiger Moth is really quite hard to fly without it wandering about all over the place, but is terribly good fun. Alas, I haven't yet sampled the delights of Pittses, Stampses and Yakses.

I am fortunate in that I've flown aeros in all the above mentioned aircraft save the Robin and the Zlin.

The Pitts is a blast - it responds so well to the correct inputs, The CAP10 is also very capable and an excellent trainer.

I find the YAK a little too agricultural and a wee bit too thirsty, having said this it is a delight to pole around the sky.

The Stampe and Tiger are far harder to fly well than anything with more power.

I suggest that you go with your heart and learn on the type that you want to!

Stik

Bertie,

My thread 'aerobatic aircraft in the Midlands' is my 'post course' issue. so:

Don't just think about the course - Traveling to the course is one thing, carrying on after is another. I went into it for a bit of fun and something different last summer. I never really thought beyond completion, in fact I never thought I'd carry on after completion, except........It's addictive!

Of course you may intend buying something port course???

TT

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: TRIMTRABB ]</p>

I'm glad to see that I'm not a (trainee) aerobatic snob.

It looks like the high performance AC have it, though a toodle around the sky in a Tiger Moth or Stampe is still on the agenda.

The next issue is where? If I'm going to do it, I want to do it properly. Good aircraft, good instructor, £50 per hour <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

South Central, willing to travel etc. Any suggestions?

Errr, so that's £50 per hour for the instructor then :) . Alan Cassidy does aeros training on the Pitts at White Waltham and there may be more stuff there. I have to second Zlin526, the Zlin is the nicest aircraft I've ever flown, I think there's one at Booker, the company's called Avia Special I think. I believe there's an Extra 300 somewhere darn Sarf as well, you're spoilt for choice really!

Avia Special is based at Waltham, operating Tiger Moths and a Cap 10. Avia has a Zlin but it has not been coming out to play for a while (I think that it's having its bits fiddled with). There are a number of aerobatic operators at Waltham, with Caps, Pittses, Moths, and at least one Chipmunk. Also several Yaks and Jungmanns (Jungmennen?), which I am told are mighty fine machines, although none, I believe, operated by an instructional outfit. Enquire at WLAC for details.

Bertie

At the risk of repeating my comments on other threads, you will not regret flying with Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace, <a href="http://www.skytrace.co.uk" target="_blank">www.skytrace.co.uk</a>

You will not find a better Yak 52 instructor or indeed aerobatics instructor, in this country. The Yak is thirsty (but then it boasts 360 hp) - anyone who has seen Gena's display will agree that the Yak can be flown with agility, finesse and startling grace.

Having said that, my business partner has trained with Alan Cassidy in the Pitts S2A and very highly recommends him. Naturally, Alan's reputation and record speaks for itself, being one the the UK's most successful aerobatics pilots.

Cheers

At the risk of repeating SC's points, and mine on other threads, Genna in the '52 would be my choice. I've only done 1 session with him (I'm not currently flying a 52) but learned so much.

To call the '52 'agricultural' is, IMHO, a tad unfair. It is certainly brick-built (it's a military aeroplane!) but it is beutifully engineered - far better than any western 'plane I've flown. It also handles superbly, with powerful, responsive, and well harmonised controls. 'Tis true it's thirsty, but then it has a mighty radial on the front which gives the sort of performance PPLs only dream of...

SSD

Bertie, if it's aerobatics you're after, why not consider spending a week up at delightful Sywell Aerodrome (Northants)? We can offer you basic aerobatic training on our Cessna 152, or the AOPA aeros course in our Pitts S2A in the company of our CFI. Tailwheel skills can be polished up on our Piper Cub and we'd be happy to introduce you to the joys of Tiger Moth flying. For the price of the avgas, the owners of a Yak 52 would be happy to show you the delights of that aircraft! Tel: 01604 644678 for details.

The only problem with the more advanced aircraft is the hourly rate, unless money is not a consideration I would suggest learning the basics on something simple such as the Robin which is actually a reasonable aircraft for covering up to the AOPA aero's cert. and then moving onto something more advanced such as the Cap10 as you progress and then on up the ladder.. . As far as capability goes, IMHO the Robin is MUCH nicer than the C150, The Stampe is far more capable than the DH82a but will probably cost you as much to fly as a Cap 10.

Ahhhhhhhh! Too many choices! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all. .must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all . .must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all . .must work...

words of wisdom from foxmoth that you would do well to heed.

You might want to buy Mike Goulian's stuff to get a view from a pro - Basic Aerobatics and Advanced Aerobatics are both great books, written in very informative yet easy going style (forget the AOPA book - it's technically fine, but otherwise awful in comparison).

In both books he discusses the merits of starting off in slower kit, and there's plenty of great stories from the history of aerobatics to balance out the instructional stuff.

Personally I'm flying a Robin 2160, done my AOPA (well, all bar the sequences), and now having a similar dilemma - do I step up to a CAP10 or Extra 200, or I do aim for perfection on the 2160 first?

Bertie, for what it's worth, I did my aeros training in a Pitts S2A having had a go in the other types, and although it's more per hour you get vastly more bang for your buck in a Pitts that say a 152 which in the long run saves time and therefore money. If I had to do it again I wouldn't bother with the underpowered compromise stuff, go directly to an aerobatic a/c do not pass go do not waste money.

As far as reading is concerned, especially if you do it in a Pitts, get Bill Thomas's Flying for Fun and Flying for Fun to Win, brilliant stuff.

Books: I'd agree the Mike Goulian books are very good - the Advanced one is about as far as we ordinary mortals will go. Don't overlook Neil Williams' book as well. Personally I buy any aeros book I find, since altogether they cost less than an hour's flying time and you'll probably learn something from each of them. The Aopa book you may want to skip as it's very basic and doesn't consider much beyond the basic manoeuvres.

Thanks for the great advise so far.

I know that most of the aircraft mentioned so far would be 'twitchy' by nature, but how easy are any of the aforementioned aircraft to learn in?