Am I a (trainee) Aerobatic Snob???
 

Hi Folks,

I am seriously considering an Aeros course in the summer (telling her indoors it's a precision flying couse). The question is what aircraft to use.

I know that you can do aeros in a Robin or Ces150 but would rather pay extra for a ride in a Pitts or Cap, or howabout a Tiger Moth or Stampe.

Am I right in thinking of an AC designed for aeros or am I doing the Robin etc an injustice by not considering them?

BtB

Aerobats, Robins etc. will fly basic aeros but nothing requiring sustained inverted flight as they don't have the fuel and oil systems. Generally the flashier the machine the easier it is to fly aeros in them, so it's easier to learn aeros in a Pitts or CAP however it's not easier to fly them i.e. takeoff & landing, so you'll have to spend a bit of dosh to do that bit first. I suppose it comes down to moolah really; if you've got lots of it, go for the more capable machine (they're much more fun to fly as well).

Why not try a Stampe? Good performance for an old lady biplane, not up to Pitts standards, but competitive none the less. The advantages are that everything happens in slooooooooow motion, so you can see (& feel) where your mistakes are happening, and believe me they will happen at the start. With the Pitts, and any other high performance aero aircraft, things are happening so fast its impossible to tell whats going on, and what it looks like from the ground. Thats why all the hot-shot aero aces nowadays fly Sukhois & CAP's - easy peasy lemon squeezy! - Put em in a Tiger Moth or a Stampe and they cant hack it! . .On the other hand, you could try a Zlin 526! Now theres an aeroplane.............

BtB I would suggest you also consider the Yak52.. .There a few places that use them and they are really solid and great fun.

Take a Look at some of my video's if you are interested. <a href="http://www.bishopsgateoffice.com/Gary/Yak52_Aeros_Video.htm" target="_blank">Yak52 Aeros Videos </a>

Whenever this topic comes up there appears to be a measure of consensus that aerobatting in something with low energy that's a bit marginal can be very good for your aeros, but there's also the sheer fun factor to be considered, and something a bit rorty and chuckable can assist on the cheesy grin front. Cap 10s aren't that hard to take off and land in. This must be true, as even I can do it (after getting the tailwheel tick on a Cub). The Cap is most exceedingly and greatly and considerably delightful to fly in. A Tiger Moth is really quite hard to fly without it wandering about all over the place, but is terribly good fun. Alas, I haven't yet sampled the delights of Pittses, Stampses and Yakses.

I am fortunate in that I've flown aeros in all the above mentioned aircraft save the Robin and the Zlin.

The Pitts is a blast - it responds so well to the correct inputs, The CAP10 is also very capable and an excellent trainer.

I find the YAK a little too agricultural and a wee bit too thirsty, having said this it is a delight to pole around the sky.

The Stampe and Tiger are far harder to fly well than anything with more power.

I suggest that you go with your heart and learn on the type that you want to!

Stik

Bertie,

My thread 'aerobatic aircraft in the Midlands' is my 'post course' issue. so:

Don't just think about the course - Traveling to the course is one thing, carrying on after is another. I went into it for a bit of fun and something different last summer. I never really thought beyond completion, in fact I never thought I'd carry on after completion, except........It's addictive!

Of course you may intend buying something port course???

TT

[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: TRIMTRABB ]</p>

I'm glad to see that I'm not a (trainee) aerobatic snob.

It looks like the high performance AC have it, though a toodle around the sky in a Tiger Moth or Stampe is still on the agenda.

The next issue is where? If I'm going to do it, I want to do it properly. Good aircraft, good instructor, £50 per hour <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

South Central, willing to travel etc. Any suggestions?

Errr, so that's £50 per hour for the instructor then :) . Alan Cassidy does aeros training on the Pitts at White Waltham and there may be more stuff there. I have to second Zlin526, the Zlin is the nicest aircraft I've ever flown, I think there's one at Booker, the company's called Avia Special I think. I believe there's an Extra 300 somewhere darn Sarf as well, you're spoilt for choice really!

Avia Special is based at Waltham, operating Tiger Moths and a Cap 10. Avia has a Zlin but it has not been coming out to play for a while (I think that it's having its bits fiddled with). There are a number of aerobatic operators at Waltham, with Caps, Pittses, Moths, and at least one Chipmunk. Also several Yaks and Jungmanns (Jungmennen?), which I am told are mighty fine machines, although none, I believe, operated by an instructional outfit. Enquire at WLAC for details.

Bertie

At the risk of repeating my comments on other threads, you will not regret flying with Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace, <a href="http://www.skytrace.co.uk" target="_blank">www.skytrace.co.uk</a>

You will not find a better Yak 52 instructor or indeed aerobatics instructor, in this country. The Yak is thirsty (but then it boasts 360 hp) - anyone who has seen Gena's display will agree that the Yak can be flown with agility, finesse and startling grace.

Having said that, my business partner has trained with Alan Cassidy in the Pitts S2A and very highly recommends him. Naturally, Alan's reputation and record speaks for itself, being one the the UK's most successful aerobatics pilots.

Cheers

At the risk of repeating SC's points, and mine on other threads, Genna in the '52 would be my choice. I've only done 1 session with him (I'm not currently flying a 52) but learned so much.

To call the '52 'agricultural' is, IMHO, a tad unfair. It is certainly brick-built (it's a military aeroplane!) but it is beutifully engineered - far better than any western 'plane I've flown. It also handles superbly, with powerful, responsive, and well harmonised controls. 'Tis true it's thirsty, but then it has a mighty radial on the front which gives the sort of performance PPLs only dream of...

SSD

Bertie, if it's aerobatics you're after, why not consider spending a week up at delightful Sywell Aerodrome (Northants)? We can offer you basic aerobatic training on our Cessna 152, or the AOPA aeros course in our Pitts S2A in the company of our CFI. Tailwheel skills can be polished up on our Piper Cub and we'd be happy to introduce you to the joys of Tiger Moth flying. For the price of the avgas, the owners of a Yak 52 would be happy to show you the delights of that aircraft! Tel: 01604 644678 for details.

The only problem with the more advanced aircraft is the hourly rate, unless money is not a consideration I would suggest learning the basics on something simple such as the Robin which is actually a reasonable aircraft for covering up to the AOPA aero's cert. and then moving onto something more advanced such as the Cap10 as you progress and then on up the ladder.. . As far as capability goes, IMHO the Robin is MUCH nicer than the C150, The Stampe is far more capable than the DH82a but will probably cost you as much to fly as a Cap 10.

Ahhhhhhhh! Too many choices! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all. .must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all . .must work harder-must earn more-must fly them all . .must work...

words of wisdom from foxmoth that you would do well to heed.

You might want to buy Mike Goulian's stuff to get a view from a pro - Basic Aerobatics and Advanced Aerobatics are both great books, written in very informative yet easy going style (forget the AOPA book - it's technically fine, but otherwise awful in comparison).

In both books he discusses the merits of starting off in slower kit, and there's plenty of great stories from the history of aerobatics to balance out the instructional stuff.

Personally I'm flying a Robin 2160, done my AOPA (well, all bar the sequences), and now having a similar dilemma - do I step up to a CAP10 or Extra 200, or I do aim for perfection on the 2160 first?

Bertie, for what it's worth, I did my aeros training in a Pitts S2A having had a go in the other types, and although it's more per hour you get vastly more bang for your buck in a Pitts that say a 152 which in the long run saves time and therefore money. If I had to do it again I wouldn't bother with the underpowered compromise stuff, go directly to an aerobatic a/c do not pass go do not waste money.

As far as reading is concerned, especially if you do it in a Pitts, get Bill Thomas's Flying for Fun and Flying for Fun to Win, brilliant stuff.

Books: I'd agree the Mike Goulian books are very good - the Advanced one is about as far as we ordinary mortals will go. Don't overlook Neil Williams' book as well. Personally I buy any aeros book I find, since altogether they cost less than an hour's flying time and you'll probably learn something from each of them. The Aopa book you may want to skip as it's very basic and doesn't consider much beyond the basic manoeuvres.

Thanks for the great advise so far.

I know that most of the aircraft mentioned so far would be 'twitchy' by nature, but how easy are any of the aforementioned aircraft to learn in?

Whilst we are doing the book reviews, David Robson's fairly recent book on aeros is worth a look. Indeed, it's pretty useful even if you are not especially interested in aerobatics as it includes some clear and helpful stuff on the basic physics of flight manoeuvres and on physiological factors, quite apart from the aerobatic guidance.

As regards aircraft twitchiness, I'll comment on the Cap 10 and leave it to others to sum up the other types available. The Cap feels pretty stable in flight. It is very light on the controls, and, when you move them, the aircraft responds instantaneously, rather than waiting until next Thursday as in, ahem, certain popular types, but I don't think that I would call the aircraft twitchy. It’s worth noting that the elevator trimmer is very sensitive: tiny adjustments produce big changes.

Its takeoff and landing characteristics are relatively benign, as taildraggers go, the main difficulty when learning to fly it being its energetic slipperiness: making the thing slow down and descend takes some getting used to. The flaps don't make a huge difference, and you have to be careful about the flap limiting speed.

Monsieur Mudry liked to keep things simple, so the aircraft does not have a wobbly prop, which I think is a slight drawback, if only because I’m idle, although I feel more cheerful about it when the engineering bills come in.

It's good for your eyes: you can see all around you, and the forward view in the three-point attitude is quite reasonable. It's not so good for your ears, as it’s quite noisy in the cockpit, especially with the air vents open on a warm day. I must upgrade my headsets to ANR. On sunny days you have to wear a baseball cap, which puts you at some risk of being mistaken for a helicopter pilot, oh dear.

On the ground, taxiing in a stiff breeze needs a degree of alertness, especially once across the wind, as the large fin and fuselage keel area encourage pirouetting, so stir your feet. Think of it as equivalent to a step-class workout. Buns of steel in no time.

Overall, however, a most enjoyable package and I have no regrets about buying into one. Hey, it's got elliptical wings, and how cool is that?

I'd agree with FNG about handling - same applies to the Yak and IMHO should apply to all fun aeroplanes - response is immediate, is exactly what you ordered, and starts and stops NOW!

I think a wobbly prop is exteremly useful in aeros. In the Chippy (fixed pitch) I'm forever haveing to throttle back to avoid overrevving. This means you lose heigh faster, and there's always the danger you won't be quick enogh throttling back and the engine will over-rev. It could be argued that this is no bad thng in a trainer, since it makes you 'engine aware'.

In the Yak, you set full power and 82 percent RPM, forget the engine from then on (except Ts & Ps of course) and haul it around the sky - using both hands if required ;~))

SSD

I've always wanted to fly a Cap 10 - being a side-by-side is probably great for receiving instruction as compared with a tandem configuration, although I have no complaints regarding the latter. It is also a superb looking aircraft - if only it wasn't so expensive (I am sure any owner will of course say that you get what you pay for...). FNG is right, the elliptical wing is gorgeous.

As regards whether a more complex aircraft is better or worse in which to learn the basics, well, think about how many figures / maneouvres you can fly per hour. Spinning for example - the more powerful the aircraft, the faster you can climb to the height you will learn at, the faster you can regain height to that point etc. End result - much more aerobatic flying per hour. Doesn't really matter whether Pitts, Cap, Yak etc. You just "waste" less time gaining / regaining height.

So on a £££ per maneouvre basis, you may just end up coming out ahead...

Well, on that logic, there's only one choice really.

How much is an Extra 300 these days? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

"Package Prices start at Euro 225,000".

Lots of complimentary comments about the CAP10b. I agree its a lovely looking aircraft. . .Does anyone know if a share in a nice one is available in the Southern UK?

I don't know of any shares going, but there are a couple of 10bs on the market at the moment, both said to be quite nice, although one of them will need a new engine soonish (IO360s in aerobatic machines live short but cheerful lives). Perhaps you should talk to one of my co-owners, as he often goes on about of getting a second aircraft, in order to further his evil plans for world domination in aerobatic instruction, but I and the other co-owner tell him but that we have shelled out big stylee already and can't quite justify having two of everything. You never know, though. Send me an email via pprune if you want to chat about it.

Flickoff, I note that you trained on a Pitts S2A at White Waltham, was that with Alan Cassidy ?

I did 40 mins intro with him earlier in the year in G-STUA, amazing stuff, going to book another session as soon as this weather picks up.

By the way, where did you get Bill Thomas's two books from, I have searched at Amazon and Airlife with no luck, any help would be much appreciated.

[ 04 February 2002: Message edited by: Letdown ]</p>

#1 - Buy Flight Unlimited by Eric Mueller and read it.

#2 - Come up North and see Cassells at Bagby - He's the top UK aero's pilot, he teaches on a T67 and he is very good. <a href="http://www.skyboard.co.uk" target="_blank">http://www.skyboard.co.uk</a>

Letdown: I didn't say I learnt to fly a Pitts with Alan Cassidy, I did my Pitts training at Sywell with Northamptonshire School of Flying (01604 644678)in their S2A. Excellent value good people nice airfield - (can I have my free AVGAS now)

. .As far as the Bill Thomas books are concerned, I bought one from Alan Cassidy who just happened to have a supply at an aeros contest several years ago, and another whilst I was in the states. I have bought several back for friends, and that is probably the easiest way. I know that the afore mentioned flying school ae trying to get a heap of copies from Bill Thomas and so you might like to give then a ring, or I think you can get them direct from Bill Thomas.

Flickoff, apologies, my mistake, I thought you learnt to fly the Pitts at WW not Sywell. Thanks for the advice re: Northamptonshire School of Flying, I will call in next time I'm down in that area and also check if they have any copies of Bill Thomas's books available.

Javelin, I will try and get hold of a copy of "Flight Unlimited" and read it ! I'm up in Leeds next week so might just drive across to Bagby and see if Tom Cassells is around.

Thanks once again guys.

Letdown

Flight Unlimited is difficult to get hold of here. I believe you may be able to source a copy through the British Aerobatic Association - they certainly have contact with the author. Alternatively it should be available through the EAA.

Thanks Javelin, you're right, I've been looking on the web this afternoon for a copy but can't source one anywhere. I'll try the British aerobatic Association.

Hi,

I would seriously consider trying the Firefly. The wobbly prop gives one less thing to worry about,the side by side seating is good for training, the a/c is easy to fly, and there is all round excellent visibility. The slight downside is that the big wings do show mistakes, but if you get it right, it's showcase stuff.

As Javelin said, Tom Cassells is your man for this! I am a notoriously timid pilot, but he and his assistant Dennis managed to train me to win a Beginners contest, and to be able to compete at Standard without disgracing myself. (No zeros and staying in the box, and not coming last wasn't bad for a first attempt!). I can't afford to put too much money through the engine and practice as much as some, but it's still good fun.

I'm not sure of the virtue of doing an AOPA course - once you have flown your first contest, that 'tick-in-the-box' doesn't seem relevant anymore!

Hope to see you at Bagby sometime!

There is a Pitts & Aerobatic AC flt in at Popham in May. Does anyone have ny thoughts on wether it . .will be worth a visit to speak to the pilots about what & where?

Doing aero's in any a/c is a joy. It's just that some are even better than others.

Personally I was lucky enough to start my aero training in CAP 10's. I still feel that they are the best machine available for beginners.. .Unfortunately those heady days have gone and I now teach (occasionally) on a 150 aerobat. To be honest I think they are terrible to learn on, take ages to climb after mistakes, viz is poor and doing aeros with a control column is definately not as fun as with a 'stick of joy.'

I'm lucky enough to get the chance of flying Extra 300's, Van's and Yak 52's on occasion, and I feel that something like 300 is a bit much when you first start chucking things about. Something like a Cap or firefly is really ideal to start with. They are a little bit exotic and are strong enough to allow the student to feel that little bit more comfortable and that always leads to better progress.

Wobbly prop or no wobbly prop. Hmmm, Learning to keep an eye on RPM's etc is a good thing to get in the habit of straight away. Having a wobbly prop does make life easier, but it can mask problems, and if you decide to try aero's without one..... We've all done it. Over-revving is not funny and really cuts down on the fun factor.

Give Gennady a try, he really is something special and the yak is alot of fun.. .If funds allow, try all the a/c mentioned by everyone if you can. Make up your own mind what you want out of aero's. Competition or just fun??

But, please don't try to run before you can walk. Start small and build up, in the long term you'll find the standard of your flying will be better than if you just jumped into the latest "hotship". .Most of all enjoy. It really is the most fun you can have. In Bed OR out!! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Have just spent last week finessing some of my maneouvers in a Pitts S2A in the States with a great instructor, 12 hours in the Pitts then somebody offered me the chance of flying their 220hp Stearman!

For teaching basic stick and rudder skills the Stearmanwould be hard to beat - so powerful is the trimmer that I managed to loop it using that alone!

Stik