If you don't have internet access how do you check for NOTAMs before you fly then?

You do it before you go to the field,

or

You ring the AIS information line on 0500 354802 (free from a landline) if you are in the UK or on 020 8750 3939 if you are outside the UK. That gives you all of the RA(T) and temporary airspace upgrades.

or

You ring an ARO and ask them for a brief (if you can find one)

or

You ring the AIS Duty Officer on 020 8750 3773 (H24) and ask him.


What you don't do if you want to stay within the law and avoid a prosecution under Part 10 of the ANO is to go flying without checking first.

Totally agree with that.Ridiculous notion. Are we not regulated enough. What happens to the poor sod that rents from a club & reads the Notams off the notice board?

I believe there are two issues:

1. Are there weaknesses in the way in which we deal with NOTAMS, being it their content, format or distribution and

2. Is that reason not to review the NOTAMS before flight.

For me it is simple.

1. The system should be overhauled. There are weaknesses in every aspect,

2. but that is insufficient excuse for not reviewing the NOTAMs.

I dont think that message should be lost in this thread.

I think the basic message is that the NATS narrow route briefing actually does work pretty well.

IO, I agree.

Mike, the other method of checking NOTAMs is to ring base and ask them to check the route for me. They use the company log-in to access AIS; as I understand it, it gets logged on at the beginning of the flying day and is left "live" so anyone who needs it can readily access the site.

Yes it works. And telex would work (if the networks still existed). And morse code would work. But it's not as good as it could be, and I find it error-prone.

I do check NOTAMs every trip. But I know I've made mistakes before now in wrongly placing NOTAMS from the NATS system. It might have been a name that I thought I recognised but is somewhere totally different, or I just misplotted lat/long.

An interesting exercise is to get NOTAMs from the NATS site, check which are relevant, and then repeat the exercise using a map-based tool (e.g. UK 48-Hour Notams : Warnings and Restrictions, Notamplot, Airbox Fastplan, metutil etc) . When I do that, every now and then I see a NOTAM on the map that I'd missed in the list.

An example: there's a current NOTAM "FLYING OF LARGE MODEL ACFT. 1NM RADIUS 5205N 00123E (WOODBRIDGE AD, SUFFOLK) OPS INFO VIA RAF WATTISHAM 01449 728126. AUS 10-04-0309/AS2."

That's at Woodbridge, but when I read that I got Wattisham. When I saw it on the map, I realised my mistake. Before you brand me as a careless moron, that's exactly the sort of mistake that humans (including pilots) make, even when they're trying to be careful. Wattisham is a much more likely location for a Notam, and Woodbridge is inactive for most purposes, so the name "Wattisham" stood out more. Most mistakes are screamingly obvious when you analyse them, but everyone makes them.

As they say, there are 3 sorts of pilot:

1. Those that make mistakes and admit it
2. Those that make mistakes and don't admit it
3. Those that make mistakes and don't know it.

The system works, but it could be so much better and could help people avoid mistakes.

Freda - how often do you actually have to plot shapes from coordinates?

I fly 100-150hrs/year and the bigger part of that is in the UK. The number of instances where I see shapes that need plotting is in low single digits per year. In 2010, not yet.

You mention a model aircraft flying notam. You should not actually read dross like that, never mind plot it. Unless you fly at levels where you will get done for low flying, model planes are irrelevant.

All that matters is stuff that actually affects your flight - bearing in mind that you are in Class G.

For example a notam saying that some plane will be flying in some area, not in accordance with rules of the air, that is garbage, because in Class G most people fly not IAW the rules of the air ;)

99% of the text of the average NRB is skipped in seconds.

Maybe this is where so many people are going wrong. They actually read all the garbage... kite flying, unlit chimneys, military a/c flying with transponder codes allocated by General Hooton............... :ugh:

Not many complex shapes, but figuring out any lat/log is error-prone for me. I've got less than 500 hours total, and fly much less than you. I'm sure that you don't make as many mistakes as I do.
I defer to your wisdom, but for me, I need to read pretty much everything to figure out whether or not it's dross.
I think he's a Squadron Leader. Don't know what's happened to the poor chap, but his Notam seems to have disappeard. I'll miss his transponder codes.

More seriously, I think a graphical map-based presentation is a great dross filter. I know when I read 9 pages of cra... I mean Notams (yes: a narrow route brief today would have been 9 pages according the my browser's print preview), if I skip-read over the dross, there's a good chance I'll miss something I should have read. You're probably better at it than me. But why make it hard for pilots? Several of those that have done map presentations have said how relatively cheap and easy it would be.

All good options (and so good in fact I've quoted it back so everyone can refer to it!) My suggestion of linking AIS logins to licence val;idation was said tongue in cheek aimed at seeing if anyone would bite. Nice to see a response with some good suggestions.

figuring out any lat/log is error-prone for absolutely everybody and is the absolutely last thing which any human should be doing, which is why (e.g.) one plans a route around waypoints which are already in the GPS database, and one never uses user waypoints.

The only occassions I have had to use lat/long since I got my PPL were

- enter a user waypoint for LEAX (in Spain) - since fixed

- enter some user waypoints for a DIY GPS approach (which I then checked by flying it in VMC)

- plot some air show TRA shape on the map, 2x I think so far

The basic point I was making is that you seem to be reading dross which you should just skip.

Let me do an example. I have just done an NRB from EGMD (Lydd) to EGSH (Norwich). Here we go... my comments in RED

Aerodrome Information
Aerodrome (departure) - EGMD (LYDD)
Q) EGTT/QFAAH/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5057N00056E005
B) FROM: 10/03/28 07:30C) TO: 10/10/30 18:00

E) AD HR 0730-1800. EXTENSIONS BY PRIOR ARRANGEMENT THROUGH CUSTOMER
SERVICES TEL 01797 322400.
Good one - opening hours do matter

C1569/10
Aerodrome (destination) - EGSH (NORWICH)
Q) EGTT/QOBCE/IV/M/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/07/30 16:30C) TO: 10/08/19 17:00

E) CRANE OPR DAYLIGHT HR BTN TWY E AND D, MAX HGT 98FT.
GARBAGE
HANGAR STRUCTURE UP TO MAX HGT 38FT. HANGER LIT AT NIGHT.

C3584/10
Q) EGTT/QFAHX/IV/BO/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/07/21 12:00C) TO: 10/08/31 12:00

E) INCREASED BIRD ACTIVITY 2NM NORTHEAST DIRECTION FROM RWY 27 THR
GARBAGE - birds are 100% legal to fly in Class G so why notam this?

C3454/10
Q) EGTT/QFAXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/05/11 11:15C) TO: 10/09/30 20:30

E) INCREASED DEER ACTIVITY ON AD
GARBAGE - if you see a deer on the runway then obviously you go around, so why notam this?

C2458/10
Q) EGTT/QMXXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/05/12 05:30C) TO: 10/08/10 20:30

E) DUE WIP A NEW TWY LINK REPLACES THE PORTION OF TWY E BTN HOLDING
POINT E1 AND JUNCTION OF TWY D AND TWY E AND WILL BE KNOWN AS TWY
ECHO. THE NEW TWY LINK CL STARTS 15M SOUTH OF HOLDING POINT E1 AND
ADJOINS TWY D AT 319M SOUTH OF HOLDING POINT D1.
TECHNICAL DETAILS AS FOLLOWS:
WIDTH 8.5M SURFACE CONCRETE STRENGTH 8/R/C/W/T
THE TWY IS AVBL DURING THE HOURS OF OFFICIAL DAYLIGHT ONLY.
ALL GARBAGE

C2446/10
Q) EGTT/QMXXX/IV/NBO/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/05/19 07:00C) TO: 10/08/19 17:00

E) WIP BTN TWY E AND D 0700-1700 DAILY, ALL WORK AREAS BARRIERED AND
LIT AT NIGHT. HEL NOT PERMITTED TO OVERFLY THE WORKS SITE.
GARBAGE

C2569/10
Q) EGTT/QSPLT/IV/BO/A/000/999/5241N00117E005
B) FROM: 10/04/29 16:06C) TO: 10/10/29 20:30

E) RWY 09/27 SRA TO 1NM NOT AVBL
GARBAGE - this was a VFR briefing

That's it for Lydd and Norwich... now we get to enroute

C2302/10
En-Route Information
EGTT: LONDON FIR
Q) EGXX/QAFTT/IV/BO/E/000/999/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/07/29 00:01C) TO: 10/08/11 23:59

E) TRIGGER NOTAM/AIP AMDT AIRAC 8/2010 WEF 29 JUL PERM
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
AREA INVOLVED IN TRANSFER OF ATS RESPONSIBILITY WI SHANNON FIR
ATS ROUTES L151 L186 M189 M605 N615 N859 N864 Q70 Y47 UL6 UL18 UL151
UL186 UL983 UM89 UM189 UM605 UN615 UN859 UP600 UQ70 UY47 CHANGES.
SIGNIFICANT POINT DESIGNATORS.
NORTHER NORTH SEA, SUMBURGH RADAR SECTOR AMENDED.
AWY N57/B226 REDESIGNATED N864.
AWY A47 REDESIGNATED M605
AWY UP14 REDESIGNATED UM89
UPPER AND LOWER ATS ROUTES (SOUTH AND NORTH SHEET) CHANGES.

B1324/10
Q) EGXX/QCSCS/IV/B/E/000/999/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/07/26 00:00C) TO: 10/10/24 23:59

E) SSR CODE 4574 WILL BE ASSIGNED TO CERTAIN MINISTRY OF
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
DEFENCE
ACFT PERFORMING FLYING TRAINING AND OPS OUTSIDE OF CONTROLLED
AIRSPACE (EITHER IN FORMATION OR AS SINGLE ACFT) AND NOT RECEIVING
AN AIR TRAFFIC SERVICE. THE CODE WILL BE UNVALIDATED AND
UNVERIFIED. OPS CTC 01264 784456.
(this was the General Hooton one but he must have got promoted to Rear Admiral as a result of the heavy recruitment into the Services from the GA pilot population - well done old chap)
AUS 10-07-0757.

B1736/10
Q) EGXX/QXXXX/IV/M/E/000/100/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/07/29 15:23C) TO: PERM

E) THERE IS AN ERROR IN THE ATOTN (AIR TRAFFIC OPR TEL NETWORK)
DIRECTORY. LONDON MIL LJAO (LONDON JOINT AREA ORGANISATION) NUMBERS
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
DO NOT BEGIN WITH 7590. LONDON MIL LJAO NUMBERS BEGIN
7500, CONSOLE NUMBERS ARE AS FOLLOWS:
LJAO NORTH SUPERVISOR 2408
LJAO NORTH EAST 5291
LJAO EAST 5292
LJAO NORTH WEST 5299
LJAO SOUTH SUPERVISOR 2417
LJAO CENTRAL 5298
LJAO WEST 5296
LJAO SOUTH WEST 5296
LJAO SOUTH EAST 5997
LJAO OVERLOAD 1 5294
LJAO OVERLOAD 2 5293

U2179/10
Q) EGXX/QNVTT/IV/BO/E/000/999/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/01/19 11:30C) TO: 10/11/24 13:30

E) TRIGGER NOTAM. NAV AID OUTAGES JAN-DEC 2010. SUP 043/2009 REFERS
GARBAGE - this was a VFR briefing

B0002/10
Q) EGXX/QCSCS/IV/B/E/000/999/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/07/26 00:00C) TO: 10/10/24 23:59

E) SSR CODE 7013 WILL BE ASSIGNED TO CERTAIN MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
ACFT PERFORMING FLYING TRAINING AND OPS OUTSIDE OF CONTROLLED
AIRSPACE (EITHER IN FORMATION OR AS SINGLE ACFT) AND NOT RECEIVING
AN AIR TRAFFIC SERVICE. THE CODE WILL BE UNVALIDATED AND UNVERIFIED.
OPS CTC 01407 766623. AUS 10-07-0757 AS 2.

B1735/10
Q) EGTT/QSEAH/IV/B/E/000/065/5327N00018W250
B) FROM: 10/06/07 10:40C) TO: PERM

E) AMEND ANGLIA RADAR OPR HR TO:
0630-2200 DAILY WINTER (SUMMER 1HR EARLIER)
AIP ENR 1-15-1 REFERS
Where is Anglia Radar?

B1248/10
Q) EGTT/QAFXX/IV/NBO/E/000/999/5300N00040E080
B) FROM: 10/07/29 00:01C) TO: 10/08/12 23:59

E) LONDON MIL EAST WILL SPLIT TO FORM 2 NEW SECTORS,
GARBAGE
LONDON JOINT AREA
ORGANISATION (LJAO) EAST AND LJAO NORTH EAST. FOR SECTOR BOUNDARIES
SEE EN ROUTE CHARTS. LJAO EAST INITIAL CONTACT FREQ (ICF) ARE
259.600MHZ AND 135.275MHZ AND SSR MODE 3/A ALLOCATIONS 6040-6057.
LJAO NORTH EAST ICF ARE 275.500MHZ AND 135.075MHZ AND SSR MODE 3/A
ALLOCATIONS 6060-6077. SSR MODE 3/A ALLOCATIONS 6101-6107 AND
6140-6147 REMAIN HELD BY LONDON MIL FOR OVERLOAD USE.

U2125/10
Q) EGTT/QAZCD/IV/NBO/E/000/030/5231N00125E005
B) FROM: 10/07/22 09:56C) TO: 10/12/31 23:59

E) SEETHING ATZ. FOR THE PURPOSE OF RULE 45 OF THE RULES OF THE AIR
REGULATIONS 2007 THE SEETHING ATZ IS INDEFINITELY SUSPENDED.
GARBAGE (practically speaking)

B1715/10
Nav Warnings
EGTT: LONDON FIR
Q) EGXX/QWWXX/IV/NBO/W/000/999/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/05/21 12:00C) TO: 10/08/15 23:59

E) UK VOLCANIC ASH NOTAM POLICY. FROM 1005181200
GARBAGE GARBAGEGARBAGE GARBAGE
VOLCANIC ASH NOTAM
DEFINE TWO AREAS FOR THE APPROPRIATE FIR/UIRS. ONE AREA EQUATES TO
THE GREY AREA DEPICTED ON THE VOLCANIC ASH CONCENTRATION CHARTS
(VACC) AND IS REFERRED TO AS A TIME-LIMITED ZONE (TLZ). FLIGHT WI THE
TLZ WILL BE AVAILABLE TO THOSE OPERATORS WHO HAVE AGREEMENT FROM
THEIR ORIGINAL EQUIPMENT MANUFACTURER (OEM). OPERATORS WITHOUT SUCH
AN AGREEMENT MUST TREAT THE TLZ AS A NO FLY ZONE. THE OTHER AREA IS A
NO-FLY ZONE (NFZ)(ICAO DEFINITION: AREAS OF HIGH CONTAMINATION) THAT
EQUATES TO THE BLACK AREA ON THE VACC. IN ADDN THERE ARE VOLUMES OF
AIRSPACE WHERE ADDITIONAL PROCEDURES MAY APPLY (ENHANCED PROCEDURE
ZONES) (EPZ) (ICAO DEFINITION: AREAS OF LOW CONTAMINATION). THE
DIMENSIONS OF THE NFZ TLZ AND EPZ ARE AVBL FM THE VAAC AT
HTTP://WWW.METOFFICE.GOV.UK (SEARCH FOR LONDON VAAC-ISSUED GRAPHICS
LINK). UK ACFT OPR CERTIFICATE (AOC) HOLDERS PLANNING TO OPR WI AN
EPZ OR A TLZ SHOULD COMPLY WITH THE LATEST FLT OPS DIVISION COM
(FODCOM) DOCUMENTS, AVBL AT HTTP://WWW.CAA.CO.UK (SEARCH FOR: FODCOMS
PUBLICATIONS AND FODCOMS FOR GENERAL AVIATION). ALL NON-UK AOC
HOLDERS PLANNING TO OPR WI THE EPZ OR A TLZ SHOULD SATISFY THEMSELVES
THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO OPERATE SAFELY. OPERATORS SHOULD NOTE THAT WHEN
NFZ/TLZ ARE ESTABLISHED SEPARATE NOTAM FOR THE TLZ AND NFZ WILL BE
ISSUED. ONE NOTAM WILL DEFINE THE TLZ THE OTHER NOTAM WILL DEFINE THE
NFZ. BOTH NOTAM MAY CONTAIN UP TO 3 TLZ/NFZ FOR EACH FLIGHT LEVEL
BLOCK. BOTH NOTAM WILL CROSS-REFER TO THE OTHER ENSURING OPERATORS
HAVE THE DIMENSIONS OF BOTH THE TLZ AND NFZ.

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: UNL
H1645/10
Q) EGTT/QWCLW/IV/M/W/000/005/5230N00119E001
B) FROM: 10/08/02 20:00C) TO: 10/08/06 04:00

E) CAPTIVE UNMANNED HELIUM BALLOON AT 5230N 00119E (NEAR
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE

You will get prosecuted for hitting this because the only way to hit it is to fly below 500ft
HEMPNALL,
NORFOLK). BALLOON WILL BE LIT IN ACCORDANCE WITH RULE 52 OF RULES OF
THE AIR REGULATIONS 2007. ON-SITE CTC, TEL 07713 148348.
10-08-0097/AS 5.

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 500FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: SS-SR
H3339/10
Q) EGTT/QWGLW/IV/M/W/000/065/5228N00109E010
B) FROM: 10/07/31 00:00C) TO: 10/08/08 23:59

E) GLIDING RALLY, INTENSE ACTIVITY WI 10NM RADIUS 5228N 00109E
(TIBENHAM AD, NORFOLK). AUS 10-07-0740/AS 2.
So, avoid Tibenham

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 6200FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: HJ
H3214/10
Q) EGTT/QWZLW/IV/M/W/000/065/5228N00109E002
B) FROM: 10/07/31 00:00C) TO: 10/08/08 23:59

E) LARGE MODEL ACFT FLYING. ACTIVITY WI 2NM RADIUS 5228N 00109E
(TIBENHAM AD). 10-07-0740/AS 2.
GARBAGE

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 6200FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: HJ

Anyway I am sure you get my drift. That notam took me 37 seconds to read, and decide there is nothing of relevance except avoiding Tibenham by a few miles at least (better still fly high; extremely few microlight pilots fly above 2000ft).

Re opening hours I always phone the place anyway.

IO540, I'm pleased it takes you only 37 seconds, but it takes ME longer than that, and I know I am more likely to make mistakes from a text-only presentation. By the way, another one I got wrong, and rather more pertinent: I got the location of an aerobatic display wrong a little while ago somewhere near Sheerness. Again, it was only when I saw it plotted on a graphical display that I realised my mistake.

Let's just hope I'm in a slow and careless minority.

I was vaguely sort-of under the impression that it was somewhere in the middle of the North Sea, so I always ignore NOTAMs that contain those words.

Freda - I just read the E) line of each notam item.

To summarise:

E) AD HR 0730-1800. EXTENSIONS BY PRIOR ARRANGEMENT
Relevant only if you didnt phone them
E) CRANE OPR DAYLIGHT HR BTN TWY E AND D, MAX HGT 98FT.
GARBAGE
E) INCREASED BIRD ACTIVITY 2NM NORTHEAST DIRECTION
GARBAGE - birds are 100% legal to fly in Class G so why notam this?
E) INCREASED DEER ACTIVITY ON AD
GARBAGE - if you see a deer on the runway then obviously you go around, so why notam this?
E) DUE WIP A NEW TWY LINK REPLACES THE PORTION
ALL GARBAGE
E) WIP BTN TWY E AND D 0700-1700 DAILY, ALL WORK
GARBAGE
E) RWY 09/27 SRA TO 1NM NOT AVBL
GARBAGE - this was a VFR briefing

That's it for Lydd and Norwich... now we get to enroute

E) TRIGGER NOTAM/AIP AMDT AIRAC 8/2010 WEF 29 JUL PERM
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
E) SSR CODE 4574 WILL BE ASSIGNED TO CERTAIN MINISTRY OF
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
E) THERE IS AN ERROR IN THE ATOTN (AIR TRAFFIC OPR
GARBAGE
E) TRIGGER NOTAM. NAV AID OUTAGES JAN-DEC 2010.
GARBAGE - this was a VFR briefing
E) SSR CODE 7013 WILL BE ASSIGNED TO CERTAIN MINISTRY
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
E) AMEND ANGLIA RADAR OPR HR TO:
Where is Anglia Radar? The point here is that you are not going to cancel a flight because you cannot get some radar service... half the time on any nice day one cannot get a radar service even if the unit IS open.
E) LONDON MIL EAST WILL SPLIT TO FORM 2 NEW SECTORS,
GARBAGE
E) SEETHING ATZ. FOR THE PURPOSE OF RULE 45 OF
GARBAGE (practically speaking)
E) UK VOLCANIC ASH NOTAM POLICY. FROM 1005181200
GARBAGE GARBAGEGARBAGE GARBAGE
E) CAPTIVE UNMANNED HELIUM BALLOON AT 5230N 00119E (NEAR
GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE GARBAGE
E) GLIDING RALLY, INTENSE ACTIVITY WI 10NM RADIUS 5228N 00109E (TIBENHAM AD, NORFOLK). AUS 10-07-0740/AS 2.
So, avoid Tibenham
E) LARGE MODEL ACFT FLYING. ACTIVITY
GARBAGE

37 seconds is no problem.

IO540

PPLs pootling around at 5000ft in puddle jumpers probably aren't affected by a lot of the NOTAMs you've referred to as garbage, however comma:

Pilots who may or may not fly below 500ft and who make full use of radar services such as Anglia Radar are pleased to be informed of changes to hours, and the presence of solid objects in their path. :ugh:

Are you actually dismissing birds as garbage? Seriously? Flying straight into a flock of birds during climbout or during circuits is garbage?

Correct me if I'm wrong :eek:

Who said 5000ft?

Below 500ft is kinda of tricky given that if there is a man (or a woman), a cow, a cat, a wombat, a house, a garden shed, down below, you are flying illegally. And you are not going to get a radar service at 500ft ;)

Re birds, I would like to know how they know where the birds are. I mean, even the met office with its £1BN computer cannot forecast the weather but somebody has found a way to notam where birds are, days ahead. I think that is pretty amazing and that person would make a fortune in weather forecasting.

Never trust a weatherman unless they have excessive facial hair or a speech impediment! :ok:

If lots of people are passing back reports of bird activity or it's a recorded and statistically noted breeding area/ whatever then why not have that extra situational awareness?

All I am saying is that as someone who has flown round East Anglia well below 500ft (legally:8) and made use of Anglia Radar etc I would have made use of all those NOTAMs had I been passing through, and I suspect any rotary operators would have as well.

Sure but will you cancel a flight to some place because birds are notamed there? I don't think so.

Enroute, it doesn't make sense at all to worry about that.

If you fly extremely low (legally) then you have far more to look out for than the stuff in the notams.

But rather than argue over a particular route briefing, the basic point I am making is that there is an easy way to speed read the briefing. Most of it will always be garbage. It need not be a subject generating gigabytes of pilot forum server bandwidth since 2003.

IO, you're obviously much smarter than I am, because, as I said
I'm not fibbing, honest. I really think I'm a better authority on how long it takes ME than you are.

PS - we could go on like this for ever, and it's really a bit pointless.

I'm sure you are absolutely right that the text-only NOTAM service is adequate for you, and a map-based display would be no benefit to you.

And I'm sure I'm absolutely right in saying that it would help me, would be quicker for me, and safer for me, as I make less mistakes with such a presentation.

Perhaps I'm in a minority of one. But I doubt it.

Fair enough; how long does it take you to plan the flight, etc?