Floating Arrows
 

As a single engined lightplane jockey who is not averse to the odd jolly across the Channel (English dit La Manche) I'd be interested to find out just how long an Arrow would stay afloat in a relatively straightforward ditching. (lets say two POB, half tanks and no flipover).

I'm fully aware that it would take a good 45 mins for the boys from Wattisham to reach mid channel and I wonder if cross chsnnel flying in winter is just downright foolhardy in a SEL or whether if I kit my Pax all up in an immersion suit it would not be an unreasonable exercise.

Anybody experienced this scenario or have any views?

If you cross Dover Calais it should take 10-11min. You should be very unlucky to lose your engine over this 22 miles of water. I don’t think that any one can tell you how long the a/c will float. I know of someone who ditched an Arrow in the Med. in later years he crashed into water and was killed. The Channel is a very busy shipping route. If you ditch parallel and forward to a ship they should hopefully be able to see you. Also, if you fly high enough you might be able to glide to a point near the coast. Winter/Summer are the same, only the water’s temp. is different. The use of immersion suits for such a short fly (to my opinion) is an over kill. I think that if you are worry about the plunge make sure to have jackets and a dinghy. Make sure to have an ELB with you. My a/c is fitted with one and the wife and I are fitted with one each.

Cusco,

Can't help I am afraid on how long an Arrow would float for and I hope I never have to find out!

I am a part owner of an Arrow 4 and fly probably 6/7 return trips across the Channel each year. I do occasionally fly long crossings (eg Worthing - Le Havre to go to Deauville about 34/40 minutes over water) being based at Blackbushe. Western France will see me use Isle of Wight - Cherbourg (about 25 minutes) and Eastern France the short crossing. However I increasingly wonder whether this is really sensible in singles after an event in June 1999.

Half way back to Worthing from Le Havre at 4000' and we have rough running, lowering oil pressure and the CS unit going to fully fine intermittently. It could not have started in a worse position! With help from D&D we nurse it back into Le Havre and since then my outlook on long crossings is very cautious. I still do them (went St Tropez to Corsica in May - 1 hour over water) but I ensure I am 110% happy with engine performance, wear life-jackets and carry a raft.

Still I will always take a shorter crossing if available and practical even if that means a slight extension to the overall journey time. I would be very reluctant to do a long crossing in the Winter - Dover Calais wins then I think!

arrow 2

[This message has been edited by arrow2 (edited 07 November 2000).]

Like Arrow2, I’ve done a lot of touring in an Arrow with some considerable distances x-water and mountainous terrain. Whilst I realise that engine doesn’t know whether it’s over water or not, I like to minimise the risks involved just in case things go wrong. IMHO, however, kitting yourself and your pax in immersion suits for what I assume is supposed to be a pleasure flight would be an uncomfortable (and expensive) business. If the water’s cold enough to justify the use of immersion suits, I stay over land or remain within the Arrow’s so-called gliding range.

If it came to a ditching situation, I’d be in my liferaft before thinking about how the aircraft floats!

Although primarily directed at sailors, www.takacs98.freeserve.co.uk/page70.html offers some useful advice on how to survive an unplanned swim. I also understand that the RAF offers courses in Lossiemouth on ditching procedures and use of liferafts (getting into one is trickier than you may think).

Horsepower

[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 08 November 2000).]

Speaking as a Mil CSRO (Combat Survival Rescue Officer) and a qualified Military Pilot and CPL holder I noted the comment about the IM suit being an overkill. Well I'm afraid I dont agree. 22 miles in flight is nothing..I agree, but try swimming it, after ditching, in bad weather, with possible injuries, a swell and not to mention the water tempreture!! The only time you will need an Im suit is when you NEED an Im suit...if you know what I mean. An overkill maybe but not if you need it. It will increase you survival factor by 300%. With the water temp averaging around 11 deg in the Channel you will be lucky to last 25 mins and thats in a good condition (physicaly) add all the previous factors and hey, I dont think we would reach you in time.
We wear ours on EVERY trip across any strech of water that is more than Autorotative distance from solid ground, and we have two engines, flot gear and an aircraft that will stay afloat almost indefinatley if put down correctley (and a bloke in the back to get the dinghy pack ready!!)

They are not uncomfy to wear and the peace of mind for you and your loved ones will far outweigh any expendeture. And it means we wont have to fish your body out of the brine. We allways like to see a smile when we get there, it means your alive.

I remember reading an article in Pilot a few years ago about a guy who ditched a Cherokee 6 in the Atlantic. The tail was poking out of the water for a few minutes but the cabin had sumberged almost instantly.

When we go offshore, survival suits are mandatory. I agree with the comments about a dinghy being hard to get into. It's bad enough in a swimming pool, in a North Sea swell it can be very difficult even with others helping you.

Flarechecklevel,

Before I part with my dosh, any recommendations for good-quality lightweight Im suits?

Horsepower

There was an article in Pilot a few years back about a new lightweight survival suit(ie not North Sea / mil standard). Try harrymendelssohn.comm or 0131 447 7777, they do safety equipment including neat lifejackets. I don't know if they do survival suits but they could give you a list of suppliers who might do them.

Having read a few accident reports over the years (one C172 in the River Forth) I'd speculate that the floating time is probably measured in seconds (i.e up to a few minutes) than a longer period.

The Cessna pilot had to escape from underwater as I recall, although the high wing configuration may have been a factor in the submerging of the a/c.

One thing is for sure, the water around the British Isles is very cold at all times of year and prolonged exposure not healthy.

Flarechecklevel
I have to force my wife to use the jacket! Can't see her using an I.S
I saw the suits that SMS had to offer, they did not seem to be comfi. Also did not like the price and the look.
I agree that a jacket alone is not enough, but still, an I.S for such a short trip? If you fly at 4000' you should be able to glide to the coast unless the engine gave up near the half way point. I don't know, you might have a point.

AC-DC, Interesting concept that you might be able glide to the coast from 4000'. My own flight manual suggests a still air capability at best glide of approx 1.6nm / 1000'. Perhaps your 'wings' are better than mine! The good news is that 4000' should allow you time to prepare for the impending watery or otherwise arrival. :-)

Thanks guys :most helpful

I seem to remember a photo of a Robin which ditched in the Irish sea remaining afloat indefinitely; but of course wood floats quite well.

I did buy, in response to an ad in Pilot I think a reconditioned immersion suit for about GBP100 a few years ago from SEMS aerosafe.

Seemed like a good bargain, but when I got it, unlike the picture in the ad, it had a ruddy great rubber hood, quite incompatible with my lifejacket, and flying gear. it still had Exxon on it was was clearly ex rig cr*p. I would have looked a real plonker climbing onto the tarmac at LFAT on a warm spring day.

Infortunately I just shoved it in a cupboard and forgot about it. When friends wiser than me suggested I get my money back SEMS wouldn't play, suggesting (probably quite rightly) that I had waited too long. There's a moral there some where.

I might just save up my pennies for a new purpose made suit for light A/c (you know-the one with the diagonal zip).


The message also seems to be that an Arrow doesn't float for long,that the channel is B****y cold whatever the time of year, and I need to go on a survival/immersion course.

Anyone know where I can get details?

------------------
Cusco

If you are going the full hog with bunny suits perhaps you should strap parachutes to your arses also.
Their is an opinion to not risk ditching (you might not survive) but to evacuate prior to hitting the briny.

TBEE
4000'=6.4 miles of gliding(your numbers)
Channnel = 21 miles (aprox.)
21-(6.4*2)=8.2 miles total out of gliding range.
8.2/2=4.1 miles out of gliding range from mid. channel

120kt/h=2kt/min

.
. .

If your engine turns for 3min. past the mid. channel point you might reach the other side.

[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]

Not forgeting of course that those figures are for Still Air and the Mid point may not be mid channel, if you see what I mean!

I havn't yet taken my kids flying but one of the things I would want to do maybe next year is take them to France for the day. All this talk of ditching is scary when you think of not only getting yourself out, but the kids as well.

I may invest in a dinghy before I go, one advantage is that I fly a low wing, sliding canopy aircraft (Similar to an AA5). And it is only the Short route for me.

I seem to remember you can get up to FL55 over the channel, why stay at 4000', I would assume that at 5500' there would be virtually no "dead spot".

(I'm not going to do the calc, something that you are probably better off not knowing)

The Worthing CTA (I'm assuming you are talking about Dover - Cap Gris Nez, New Bloke) starts at FL65, so FL55 would be the preferred level for me, conveniently this works both with our quadrantal rule and the French semi-circular rule as well as transition levels in both FIRs. That (FL55)should give you about 8.5nm glide if the donkey stopped. If you coast out over Dover Harbour, Cap Gris Nez is 17.6nm (9 mins at 120kts in still air). Each of us assesses risk in their own way but I personally do not see that crossing as a *huge* risk...

Cheers
Cahlibahn

Of course you still have to come back ;)

O.K, Now that we know that we might/might not have to swim, who wants to fly to Iceland during the summer? The water are VERY cold and we fly with a dingy and suits?

AC-DC,

Have you done the Iceland trip? If you did, I’d be interested to hear how you fared; I’m looking for inspiration for next year!
After reading some of the above postings, I’m buying an Im suit ASAP.

Horsepower

[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 10 November 2000).]

AC-DC,

Is that a serious question, I might be tempted?

Has anyone got statistics on the engine failure rate for single engine light aircraft?

I'm sure a reasonably maintained engine can be expected to last through to its TBO without suffering a complete/total power loss. If it should fail, the likelyhood is for a partial, rather than total failure. With that in mind most water crossings from the UK should pose few problems. That said, it's amazing how 'auto-rough' immediately engages in the brain the moment the coast slips by under the wing... especially at night... but then that's another story!

I always take the Cap Gris route to minimise the risk at max height.

I also carry out mental risk assessments (written ocassionally)and stop short of immersion suits and dinghy. Lifejackets and ELB are my personal answer. If I did manage to survive the ditching I would be Peed off if I couldn't float and bleep.

But if you are a "survivalist" and insist on wearing a bloody uncomfortable Immersion Suit surely you should also have a parachute.
The I.S. will only be of use if you manage to get out of the aircraft and into the water alive.
Evacuation prior to HITTING the water would address the first risk, staying alive in the water would be the second, and recovery the third.

I have chatted with guys nervous about the Channel hop but think nothing about transitting the Wash or Thames Estuary or even the Welsh Mountains!... strange.

Mind you with the present weather I think we'll all need immersion suits soon http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/redface.gif

Well what a debate...fantastic! I'm sorry cusco I cannot offer any advice on the civilian market Zoot Suits, exept to say that any is better than than none at all. We have a suit wich is issued to all three services as standard. (bar a few minor differences). And as for the comment about parachutes from Beagle....your still gonna get wet at the end of the ride down.

I have done no research on this but..I'm sure an IM suit and a good quality strobe light would be cheaper than a dinghy. I know which I would fork out for, and it dosent bigin with 'D'!!

Hope all your flying is enjoyable whatever and wherever you go.

H.P
No I haven’t done the trip but Iceland is among the few places that captured my imagination since I was a child. I remember sitting with my encyclopaedia and looking at the photos. I will be there one day either as P1 or Pax.21. If you would like to know which route I have planed than you can find it at the bottom.

New Block
Yes, I am very serious. I had planned to fly a 6 seater twin last summer and looked for people to share the cost. There were many that wanted to come and share the experience but not the cost. The argument was that I need them as Safety Pilots because they are I.R. Then I thought of flying it with the wife on single but could not rent. All said that I have a lose nut, then business took over.

TBEE
Sorry can’t help with statistics but I think that you are right. My engine is about 2500s/n and 300 since top. I was told that a well maintained IO540 can reach 5000h as long as it goes through top every 1000h. As a rule of thumb you can say that the harder the engine works the shorter its life. The O/IO540 are rated from 250hp up to 350-375hp. (or near these figures). The TBO of the top end engine is 1600-1800h.
Another point that should be taken into account is Pilot Handling. Many do not cool the engine before landing. Reducing power on Downwind in some cases is not enough. It is best to start reducing the power (in stages) about 10 miles out, this way you avoid cool-shocking the engine. Also, rapid and sharp increase/decrease of RPM is bad as the balance counter weights are thrown against the crankshaft.

Suggested Route
I have planned a very conservative route with 2 stop over for safety reasons and fuel uplift. The first stop is at Wick, Scotland and the second at the Faroe Islands (Faroe Islands can be avoid down to a/c range).
Total flying time (still wind) should be +/- 8h. depends on a.c type and if departed from the South East. From Wick to the Faroe Islends it is 250 miles mostly over water. From Faroe Islands to Iceland (ING VOR) is 270 miles over water and another 142 miles to Reykjavik over mountains and lakes. There is a slightly shorter route but the penalty is a longer time spent over the water. The nearest airfield to ING (in case of an emergency or fuel shortage) is some 50 miles to the NW. Therefore, I think that anyone who wants to join (not as a pax.) MUST have a range of 420 miles at least! The mountains along the route peak to 3000’ (also in Scotland) and they reach 6000’about 10 miles north off ING VOR. However the route does not cross over the mountains as you turn west towards Reykjavik. (From there it is not too far to Greenland, Canada and the USA and the Caribbean…Ahhhh, SUN at last!!!)
Shall we arrange a PPRUNE Fly In?

Flarecheck..
Start with 'D'? Tell me, I don't understand.
Thanks.

With ref to which I would fork out for...an IM suit and strobe light or a Dinghy...D for Dinghy.

AC-DC,

You’re on for a BIRK fly-in...if I can persuade my flying buddy to go north instead of south next year (we were thinking of the warmth of Tunisia) :)

I reckon the still-air flight time for the Arrow from EGPC-EKVG-BIRK is ±5 hours. When are you thinking of heading up?

In the meantime, I thought you might enjoy this diary of two grumpy old farts who went transatlantic in a C182, bitching and moaning about everything on the way!
http://www1.club.ch/aviation/flight/varia/transat.html

There’s a description of the EGPO-EKVG-BIRK route somewhere in there too.

Horsepower

[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 11 November 2000).]

Flarecheck...

I believe the military procedure with fixed wings was always bale out and not to risk ditching if possible, has this changed and if so, why?

As I dont write the rules I can only assume that this was for the reason of the price of human life. To survive ditching at well over 100 knots would be a feat of pure luck whereas surviving an ejection is not realy a problem. Fly the A/C to a safe(?) point to let it ditch or crash land (away from populated areas etc etc) then eject. The chance of survival from ejection far outweighs the chance of survival from attempting to ditch 200 tonnes of metal, And the MoD dont have to retrain another Jet Jock. (I'm sure they could write the A/C off against tax!!)

H.P
Thanks for the site. I will give it a go. I would like to go July/August.
However. Greece is also a nice place.

Flarecheck ...
Thanks. It is a brain problem, intermittent.
Have you got some good advise if the flight to Iceland will go ahead?

[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 12 November 2000).]

Standby on that one as I am very busy at work at the mo as we have the "Aviation Standards Team" with us. I'll get some info together and pass it on shortly.