Floating Arrows
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Floating Arrows
As a single engined lightplane jockey who is not averse to the odd jolly across the Channel (English dit La Manche) I'd be interested to find out just how long an Arrow would stay afloat in a relatively straightforward ditching. (lets say two POB, half tanks and no flipover).
I'm fully aware that it would take a good 45 mins for the boys from Wattisham to reach mid channel and I wonder if cross chsnnel flying in winter is just downright foolhardy in a SEL or whether if I kit my Pax all up in an immersion suit it would not be an unreasonable exercise.
Anybody experienced this scenario or have any views?
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If you cross Dover Calais it should take 10-11min. You should be very unlucky to lose your engine over this 22 miles of water. I don’t think that any one can tell you how long the a/c will float. I know of someone who ditched an Arrow in the Med. in later years he crashed into water and was killed. The Channel is a very busy shipping route. If you ditch parallel and forward to a ship they should hopefully be able to see you. Also, if you fly high enough you might be able to glide to a point near the coast. Winter/Summer are the same, only the water’s temp. is different. The use of immersion suits for such a short fly (to my opinion) is an over kill. I think that if you are worry about the plunge make sure to have jackets and a dinghy. Make sure to have an ELB with you. My a/c is fitted with one and the wife and I are fitted with one each.
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Cusco,
Can't help I am afraid on how long an Arrow would float for and I hope I never have to find out!
I am a part owner of an Arrow 4 and fly probably 6/7 return trips across the Channel each year. I do occasionally fly long crossings (eg Worthing - Le Havre to go to Deauville about 34/40 minutes over water) being based at Blackbushe. Western France will see me use Isle of Wight - Cherbourg (about 25 minutes) and Eastern France the short crossing. However I increasingly wonder whether this is really sensible in singles after an event in June 1999.
Half way back to Worthing from Le Havre at 4000' and we have rough running, lowering oil pressure and the CS unit going to fully fine intermittently. It could not have started in a worse position! With help from D&D we nurse it back into Le Havre and since then my outlook on long crossings is very cautious. I still do them (went St Tropez to Corsica in May - 1 hour over water) but I ensure I am 110% happy with engine performance, wear life-jackets and carry a raft.
Still I will always take a shorter crossing if available and practical even if that means a slight extension to the overall journey time. I would be very reluctant to do a long crossing in the Winter - Dover Calais wins then I think!
arrow 2
[This message has been edited by arrow2 (edited 07 November 2000).]
Can't help I am afraid on how long an Arrow would float for and I hope I never have to find out!
I am a part owner of an Arrow 4 and fly probably 6/7 return trips across the Channel each year. I do occasionally fly long crossings (eg Worthing - Le Havre to go to Deauville about 34/40 minutes over water) being based at Blackbushe. Western France will see me use Isle of Wight - Cherbourg (about 25 minutes) and Eastern France the short crossing. However I increasingly wonder whether this is really sensible in singles after an event in June 1999.
Half way back to Worthing from Le Havre at 4000' and we have rough running, lowering oil pressure and the CS unit going to fully fine intermittently. It could not have started in a worse position! With help from D&D we nurse it back into Le Havre and since then my outlook on long crossings is very cautious. I still do them (went St Tropez to Corsica in May - 1 hour over water) but I ensure I am 110% happy with engine performance, wear life-jackets and carry a raft.
Still I will always take a shorter crossing if available and practical even if that means a slight extension to the overall journey time. I would be very reluctant to do a long crossing in the Winter - Dover Calais wins then I think!
arrow 2
[This message has been edited by arrow2 (edited 07 November 2000).]
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Like Arrow2, I’ve done a lot of touring in an Arrow with some considerable distances x-water and mountainous terrain. Whilst I realise that engine doesn’t know whether it’s over water or not, I like to minimise the risks involved just in case things go wrong. IMHO, however, kitting yourself and your pax in immersion suits for what I assume is supposed to be a pleasure flight would be an uncomfortable (and expensive) business. If the water’s cold enough to justify the use of immersion suits, I stay over land or remain within the Arrow’s so-called gliding range.
If it came to a ditching situation, I’d be in my liferaft before thinking about how the aircraft floats!
Although primarily directed at sailors, www.takacs98.freeserve.co.uk/page70.html offers some useful advice on how to survive an unplanned swim. I also understand that the RAF offers courses in Lossiemouth on ditching procedures and use of liferafts (getting into one is trickier than you may think).
Horsepower
[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 08 November 2000).]
If it came to a ditching situation, I’d be in my liferaft before thinking about how the aircraft floats!
Although primarily directed at sailors, www.takacs98.freeserve.co.uk/page70.html offers some useful advice on how to survive an unplanned swim. I also understand that the RAF offers courses in Lossiemouth on ditching procedures and use of liferafts (getting into one is trickier than you may think).
Horsepower
[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 08 November 2000).]
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Speaking as a Mil CSRO (Combat Survival Rescue Officer) and a qualified Military Pilot and CPL holder I noted the comment about the IM suit being an overkill. Well I'm afraid I dont agree. 22 miles in flight is nothing..I agree, but try swimming it, after ditching, in bad weather, with possible injuries, a swell and not to mention the water tempreture!! The only time you will need an Im suit is when you NEED an Im suit...if you know what I mean. An overkill maybe but not if you need it. It will increase you survival factor by 300%. With the water temp averaging around 11 deg in the Channel you will be lucky to last 25 mins and thats in a good condition (physicaly) add all the previous factors and hey, I dont think we would reach you in time.
We wear ours on EVERY trip across any strech of water that is more than Autorotative distance from solid ground, and we have two engines, flot gear and an aircraft that will stay afloat almost indefinatley if put down correctley (and a bloke in the back to get the dinghy pack ready!!)
They are not uncomfy to wear and the peace of mind for you and your loved ones will far outweigh any expendeture. And it means we wont have to fish your body out of the brine. We allways like to see a smile when we get there, it means your alive.
We wear ours on EVERY trip across any strech of water that is more than Autorotative distance from solid ground, and we have two engines, flot gear and an aircraft that will stay afloat almost indefinatley if put down correctley (and a bloke in the back to get the dinghy pack ready!!)
They are not uncomfy to wear and the peace of mind for you and your loved ones will far outweigh any expendeture. And it means we wont have to fish your body out of the brine. We allways like to see a smile when we get there, it means your alive.
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I remember reading an article in Pilot a few years ago about a guy who ditched a Cherokee 6 in the Atlantic. The tail was poking out of the water for a few minutes but the cabin had sumberged almost instantly.
When we go offshore, survival suits are mandatory. I agree with the comments about a dinghy being hard to get into. It's bad enough in a swimming pool, in a North Sea swell it can be very difficult even with others helping you.
When we go offshore, survival suits are mandatory. I agree with the comments about a dinghy being hard to get into. It's bad enough in a swimming pool, in a North Sea swell it can be very difficult even with others helping you.
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There was an article in Pilot a few years back about a new lightweight survival suit(ie not North Sea / mil standard). Try harrymendelssohn.comm or 0131 447 7777, they do safety equipment including neat lifejackets. I don't know if they do survival suits but they could give you a list of suppliers who might do them.
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Having read a few accident reports over the years (one C172 in the River Forth) I'd speculate that the floating time is probably measured in seconds (i.e up to a few minutes) than a longer period.
The Cessna pilot had to escape from underwater as I recall, although the high wing configuration may have been a factor in the submerging of the a/c.
One thing is for sure, the water around the British Isles is very cold at all times of year and prolonged exposure not healthy.
The Cessna pilot had to escape from underwater as I recall, although the high wing configuration may have been a factor in the submerging of the a/c.
One thing is for sure, the water around the British Isles is very cold at all times of year and prolonged exposure not healthy.
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Flarechecklevel
I have to force my wife to use the jacket! Can't see her using an I.S
I saw the suits that SMS had to offer, they did not seem to be comfi. Also did not like the price and the look.
I agree that a jacket alone is not enough, but still, an I.S for such a short trip? If you fly at 4000' you should be able to glide to the coast unless the engine gave up near the half way point. I don't know, you might have a point.
I have to force my wife to use the jacket! Can't see her using an I.S
I saw the suits that SMS had to offer, they did not seem to be comfi. Also did not like the price and the look.
I agree that a jacket alone is not enough, but still, an I.S for such a short trip? If you fly at 4000' you should be able to glide to the coast unless the engine gave up near the half way point. I don't know, you might have a point.
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AC-DC, Interesting concept that you might be able glide to the coast from 4000'. My own flight manual suggests a still air capability at best glide of approx 1.6nm / 1000'. Perhaps your 'wings' are better than mine! The good news is that 4000' should allow you time to prepare for the impending watery or otherwise arrival. :-)
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Thanks guys :most helpful
I seem to remember a photo of a Robin which ditched in the Irish sea remaining afloat indefinitely; but of course wood floats quite well.
I did buy, in response to an ad in Pilot I think a reconditioned immersion suit for about GBP100 a few years ago from SEMS aerosafe.
Seemed like a good bargain, but when I got it, unlike the picture in the ad, it had a ruddy great rubber hood, quite incompatible with my lifejacket, and flying gear. it still had Exxon on it was was clearly ex rig cr*p. I would have looked a real plonker climbing onto the tarmac at LFAT on a warm spring day.
Infortunately I just shoved it in a cupboard and forgot about it. When friends wiser than me suggested I get my money back SEMS wouldn't play, suggesting (probably quite rightly) that I had waited too long. There's a moral there some where.
I might just save up my pennies for a new purpose made suit for light A/c (you know-the one with the diagonal zip).
The message also seems to be that an Arrow doesn't float for long,that the channel is B****y cold whatever the time of year, and I need to go on a survival/immersion course.
Anyone know where I can get details?
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Cusco
I seem to remember a photo of a Robin which ditched in the Irish sea remaining afloat indefinitely; but of course wood floats quite well.
I did buy, in response to an ad in Pilot I think a reconditioned immersion suit for about GBP100 a few years ago from SEMS aerosafe.
Seemed like a good bargain, but when I got it, unlike the picture in the ad, it had a ruddy great rubber hood, quite incompatible with my lifejacket, and flying gear. it still had Exxon on it was was clearly ex rig cr*p. I would have looked a real plonker climbing onto the tarmac at LFAT on a warm spring day.
Infortunately I just shoved it in a cupboard and forgot about it. When friends wiser than me suggested I get my money back SEMS wouldn't play, suggesting (probably quite rightly) that I had waited too long. There's a moral there some where.
I might just save up my pennies for a new purpose made suit for light A/c (you know-the one with the diagonal zip).
The message also seems to be that an Arrow doesn't float for long,that the channel is B****y cold whatever the time of year, and I need to go on a survival/immersion course.
Anyone know where I can get details?
------------------
Cusco
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TBEE
4000'=6.4 miles of gliding(your numbers)
Channnel = 21 miles (aprox.)
21-(6.4*2)=8.2 miles total out of gliding range.
8.2/2=4.1 miles out of gliding range from mid. channel
120kt/h=2kt/min
.
. .
If your engine turns for 3min. past the mid. channel point you might reach the other side.
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]
4000'=6.4 miles of gliding(your numbers)
Channnel = 21 miles (aprox.)
21-(6.4*2)=8.2 miles total out of gliding range.
8.2/2=4.1 miles out of gliding range from mid. channel
120kt/h=2kt/min
.
. .
If your engine turns for 3min. past the mid. channel point you might reach the other side.
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]
[This message has been edited by AC-DC (edited 10 November 2000).]
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Not forgeting of course that those figures are for Still Air and the Mid point may not be mid channel, if you see what I mean!
I havn't yet taken my kids flying but one of the things I would want to do maybe next year is take them to France for the day. All this talk of ditching is scary when you think of not only getting yourself out, but the kids as well.
I may invest in a dinghy before I go, one advantage is that I fly a low wing, sliding canopy aircraft (Similar to an AA5). And it is only the Short route for me.
I seem to remember you can get up to FL55 over the channel, why stay at 4000', I would assume that at 5500' there would be virtually no "dead spot".
(I'm not going to do the calc, something that you are probably better off not knowing)
I havn't yet taken my kids flying but one of the things I would want to do maybe next year is take them to France for the day. All this talk of ditching is scary when you think of not only getting yourself out, but the kids as well.
I may invest in a dinghy before I go, one advantage is that I fly a low wing, sliding canopy aircraft (Similar to an AA5). And it is only the Short route for me.
I seem to remember you can get up to FL55 over the channel, why stay at 4000', I would assume that at 5500' there would be virtually no "dead spot".
(I'm not going to do the calc, something that you are probably better off not knowing)
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The Worthing CTA (I'm assuming you are talking about Dover - Cap Gris Nez, New Bloke) starts at FL65, so FL55 would be the preferred level for me, conveniently this works both with our quadrantal rule and the French semi-circular rule as well as transition levels in both FIRs. That (FL55)should give you about 8.5nm glide if the donkey stopped. If you coast out over Dover Harbour, Cap Gris Nez is 17.6nm (9 mins at 120kts in still air). Each of us assesses risk in their own way but I personally do not see that crossing as a *huge* risk...
Cheers
Cahlibahn
Cheers
Cahlibahn
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AC-DC,
Have you done the Iceland trip? If you did, I’d be interested to hear how you fared; I’m looking for inspiration for next year!
After reading some of the above postings, I’m buying an Im suit ASAP.
Horsepower
[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 10 November 2000).]
Have you done the Iceland trip? If you did, I’d be interested to hear how you fared; I’m looking for inspiration for next year!
After reading some of the above postings, I’m buying an Im suit ASAP.
Horsepower
[This message has been edited by Horsepower (edited 10 November 2000).]