Is it possible to fly a Learjet on a PPL?
 

Hi all,
Was discussing my flying training with my (non aviation-minded) colleague at work earlier, and he asked me a question which I was unable to confidently answer.

What he asked effectively, was 'is it possible to fly something like a Learjet on a PPL and how much would it cost to rent one for an hour'.

Presumably you'd need a multi-engine rating - which I wasn't sure whether you need a CPL for?

Over to you....

You can fly *anything* on a PPL, provided that you have the appropriate type rating. And stay within the limits of your license, so you cannot get paid for the flight and have to pay at least an equal share of the direct costs of the flight.

However, the type rating exam for those kinds of aircraft are typically to ATPL standards. Which are kind of hard to achieve if you're just a fresh PPL without IR and ME experience.

Oh, and if the aircrafts POH or owners/operators AOC specifies that it's a multi-pilot aircraft, there may be other restrictions.

Yes, but you'll need

need a type rating
(Possibly Multi Cockpit Crew course).

To make any practical use, you'd also need an IR.

As for the rental rate, you can get it on a great new finance scheme. You just have to pay a small deposit of 100%, and then you've no payments to make each month. ;) Seriously....good luck finding anyone to rent it to you ;)

You will also need a HPA endorsement which is either achieved through the ATPL exams, holding an ICAO ATP exam pass or sitting the HPA exams.

Thanks - it was only a hypothetical question posed by a 'non-aviation' person. I'm not considering doing this!

Doesn't the Duke of Westminster fly his around on a PPL?

What is an HPA Endorsement?

'High Performance Aircraft'.

An FAA requirement to fly any aircraft with MORE than 200bhp. You can do it with an FAA instructor in ANYTHING with more than 200bhp.

Getting a Lear Jet type rating should cover that :rolleyes:

HPA = High Performance Aircraft?

I don't think any of the jet Type Rating training outfits will take on somebody who doesn't already have an IR - as a crude but probably appropriate measure to filter out those without an adequate understanding of the aircraft systems.

And even if they did, a Lear Jet low level (outside of controlled airspace) would burn a horrifying amount of fuel and below 10,000ft would be restricted to 250kts.

John Travolta has Lear Jet, HS125 and Boeing 707 types (amongst others) on HIS PPL. He does have an instrument rating though :ok:

Ah right, thanks...already have one of those....But one would need a high altitude endorsement ;)

Actually..... The HPA is a JAA requirement. It is a High Performance Aeroplane rating and requires a distance learning course and a written exam. It is required if you do not have an ATPL or equivalent exam pass.

Getting a Lear type rating under JAA would not cover it and in fact you would not be able to do the type rating without it or the ATPl pass........

Get an N reg one then.....

I am sure i read that a ppl can fly a jet provost with a bit of training on one of their web sites? Does a Lear require more training and paper to fly than a military jet trainer?

Ex-military jets are flown on a permit to fly and have an individual training course approved by type that each candidate undergoes. This then results in a type rating. The content of each course is judged on the operation complexity of the type. The JP as an example is a very simple VFR only permit aircraft.

A Lear as a complex IFR aircraft, pressurised etc. So the authorities have deemed that it requires HPA or ATPL/ATP level knowledge. The HPA elements really just look at human factors and performance and high altitude weather etc.

I've just seached faa.gov for John Travolta, and amazingly found him.

Type ratings:

P/B-707 P/B-720 P/CE-500 P/G-1159 P/HS-125 P/LR-JET

Limits:

ENGLISH PROFICIENT.AUTHORIZED EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT: SO-G2.B-707 SIC PRIVILEGES ONLY.CE-500 (VFR ONLY).

But yes, he is just a ME PPL/IR :)

His B707 SIC-only privilege is interesting. I wonder why?

I know about the concession whereby one could log SIC time in a multi crew aircraft, with just a ME PPL, no IR and no TR, but this is a sub-ICAO privilege limited to the USA only. It was used by some pilots outside the USA but this scheme was stopped a few years ago.

JT does have a 707 TR so why only SIC? Is it that one needs to be an ATP to sit in the LHS of a ME jet of that size? I wouldn't have thought so.

thought John had a CPL?

cant find any info on this on google

Very interesting but think about it for a minute, if, I say IF you could ever find anyone who would let you use there LJ, what is actually an unquailified crew, the cost alone would break you and these days it would be hard to remain legal. The last LJ (LJ24)I flew cost roughly $1000.00 Can/hour just for fuel. Good luck
cat71:O

Not sure that there's a JP type rating. They are usually operated under an exemption granted by the CAA following an approved course of training.


See IO540's post above :)


Fairly sure he would ONLY need an ATP to fly in command if it was a Part 135 operation.

Yes, you are quite right. I forgot it was in CAP632.

MAD JOCK From the Times...dont know if he was the private pilot though.


Gerald Grosvenor is considered a modest man. He sent his children to the local village primary school, does not care much for dining out and is proud of having worked his way up through the ranks to become head of the Territorial Army.
However, when he flew out to Iraq and Afghanistan in July for a five-day tour of duty, he rejected the 26-hour RAF flight made available to him. Instead, he hired a Learjet and private pilot, paying £4,000 for the round trip.
And why not? He is the 6th Duke of Westminster, Britain’s third richest man — worth £6.6 billion, according to The Sunday Times Rich List — and its richest property developer. Much of his wealth comes from the chunk of property he owns in London: his 100 acres of Mayfair and 200 acres of Belgravia makes him the capital’s biggest landlord.
Grosvenor, 54, heads one of four elite families who, together, control some of London’s finest addresses. Close behind comes the 8th Earl Cadogan, who has net assets of £1.9 billion that includes a 90-acre estate in Chelsea. Third and fourth, respectively, are the Hon Mary Czernin, 70, and the Howard de Walden family — whose holdings include Marylebone High Street and much of Harley Street — and the Portman estate, inherited by the 10th Viscount Portman, 48, and other family members in 1999 — which owns 110 acres of southern Marylebone, around Portman Square and Oxford Street, a spot beloved by celebrities including Madonna.

I wonder why he hired a lear, he has his own Citation X.

4K for a 5 day round trip - I'd do the same.

Methinks the figures are wrong!

Sam.

Well it is the "Times" after all :}

I know he definitely used to have one of his own and used to operate himself with his wee dog.

We used to see him quite a bit up in INV.

And I would suggest that £4000 quid to fly from UK to Afghanistan in a Lear jet is way way to cheap you couldn't even cover the handling/overflight costs of the 4-5 tech stops.

I should imagine the CAA would insist on a pass in (at least) the CPL/ATPL 'gas turbines' and 'AC electrics' exams as well?

When I originally obtained my BCPL and AFI Rating the CAA would not issue the licence until I had passed the 'gas turbines' exam. I complained bitterly that I was only instructing on and flying in SEP aeroplanes, but they wouldn't have it. So my licence was initially issued only after having passed in the optional subject of Gas Turbines!

Bizarre but true!

KR

FOK

My mate flew David Cameron to Prague for the day in a King Air and it cost £10,000....

I suspect he took his own jet and payed £4000 for the services of another pilot who probably had an adventure of a lifetime.

And to add I think these days you need a valid multi engine IR and full set of ATPL valid exams before you can start any type rating. And also the MCC is its a dual crew aircraft.

But I don't think any of this applies to Monty because to my knowledge he has had the jet for 15 odd years and I doudt he has gone JAR.

Mad Jock

I had a friend who flew G J+T? for years on a PPL IR and SP too! He was/is an excellent pilot.

Whether the ruling has changed? His was a Citation two.
As for his £4000 costs? media rubbish as usual.

Even at 20 hrs round trip at a minimum of £1500 per hour you are looking at £30000 for the aircraft or £20000 done at bare cost.

Maybe they missed a 0 off the cost and it was £40000 which with crew and other costs would be nearer the mark for such a round trip!

Pace

Hmmm, so I guess I'm ok then with my DC3 rating, obviously it's a seriously high performance machine at around 24x that minimum :}

FP.

The DC3 is a type rating. The HPA is meant to cover a class not a type.......

But then you knew that anyway and just wanted to tell us you had a DC3 rating.... :ok:

FP,

FAA High Performance is specifically for piston powered aircraft (it is not relevant to turbojet aircraft as they all have a type rating requirement and don't have engines measured in horsepower output.).

In the FAA world anything with over 6000lb payload or 20 passenger capacity must be a part 125 operation (or 121 or 135 if AOC) and these operations need a CPL and certain minimum hours - which would explain JT's Second In Command limitation on the 707.

The pre-entry requirements for a first JAA multi-pilot type rating course are to:

Have completed 100hrs PIC of aeroplanes
Hold a valid MEIR
Have completed an MCC course
Have passed the ATPL(A) exams

You might find that the insurance premiums add to the cost!

I remember a discussion some years ago about the insurance premiums that would be charged for the new breed of micro jets (Cirrus Jet, Diamond Jet, etc). These aircraft are intended to be flown by the owner but there was talk of the premiums being very high, at least to begin with.

I couldn't comment on his piloting skills.

I only met him 3 times the first time I didn't have a clue who he was but he was very pleasant chatting to my student about trimming and how it gets easier with practise while he was waiting for the refueller.

Seemed to have a genuine love of aviation from what I could tell.

Wonder what ratings you would need for this high performance animal :}

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...cricri-jet.jpg

big bollocks rating