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Thanks for all the posts my thread received. To summarise;
1. I admitted the incident was my fault from the outset and did not once try to shift the blame. I cocked up. 2. I paid the price, literally, and will forever have to live with my mistake. 3. Every flight I have conducted since this incident has been to the highest standard I am capable of. 4. I have not spoken to Mr A since the incident. 5. I fear for Mr A as I dont think he has learnt anything from this experience. That does not mean I am annoyed he was not punished as I was. Those are the facts. Those who have posted comments thinking I have somhow tried to shirk my responsibility are just wrong. Those who have seen through this have hopefully learnt from my mistake. Thanks to all MP |
I fear for Mr A as I dont think he has learnt anything from this experience |
Does anyone out there remember a flight a few years ago that ended in the drink off of Blackpool? Where an "experienced pilot" was given too much responsibility by a flying school, to deliver an aircraft to a location in the southwest, and returning near darkness in weather that got worse and worse as they approached Blackpool, attempted a couple of approaches, being too low on fuel to go to an alternate with better weather.......
Would that case be relevant to this one in any way? |
A significant difference in that case is that the PIC was not very experienced.
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....and the experienced pilot was not a current instructor, but retired and flying on an NPPL
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Mucho Respecto Magpie Pedro
MP,
Good on you for talking about the situation you found yourself in and the punishment the CAA gave you. I think it demonstrates laudable self criticism and am not sure many posters in this forum would do the same given the circumstances. There are many "perfect pilots" on this forum whose egos exist in a rareified reality. Firstly they would never ever get into the situation you got into and that would enable them to be highly critical of your judgement :rolleyes: etc... . Furthermore they would go on to accuse you of using the thread as a confessional - :confused:. Dear dear... Certain expressions come to mind but the politest one contains the words "pride" and "fall"... So, MP; all the best with progressing your professional flying career, I'm pretty certain you won't let a navigational ballsup of this scale happen to you again, and that when you are captain of the heavy that has to go around because of an infringer you will view the situation more forgivingly. None of us are perfect, (not even me!) SB |
MP wrote:
My last major concern is that in a year or two when the airline indusrty will hopefully be picking up, will this prosecution effectively halt my chances of getting a job with an airline? And truthfully, given the circumstances: I assumed nothing could go wrong My best advice is, for the moment, to keep as quiet as possible about it and hope no-one asks (your posting here is probably an even bigger error as many people, myself included, now know far more about your misdemeanour than would otherwise have been the case)... If the question arises, you will need to be truthful. If you get part of the way through a recruitment process, and it hasn't come up, then you should be ready to pick your time to mention it. Otherwise you will live in permanent fear of being 'found out' and binned. I am puzzled by one thing, though. You said It was a difficult position to be in |
MP
I doubt it will affect your chances for an Airline job. Firstly in a couple of major airline application forms it has a question about accidents. It has nothing about prosecutions. You can therefore fill the form honestly. If it does come up then be as honest in the interview as you have been on here. Most interviewers (trust me I know) will use what you say to give a big picture of yourself, and if your good enough you will pass. The biggest question this raises is that should the 2 yearly flight be a little bit more formalised? Good luck and come back to Waltham for a beer. regards Wide |
MagpiePedro
Well my two bobs worth is don't let this get you down. Look at what took place, yes there was a misstake on your behalf but nobody was hurt, the best thing you can do is to learn from what happened and move on. After 40 years of flying that is what I do, I still beat myself around the head a little occasionaly but you must learn and move on! |
The two yearly flight review should be removed, not more formalised.
The CAA review of flight safety following introduction of the JAA BFR in 1990 together with all the other stuff ( 90 day rules, annual MEP tests etc) showed absolutely no safety benefit whatsoever. This is before all the new crap which EASA are going to chuck at us. This stuff is all just jobs and money for the boys and bureaucrats who invent it . Those who need a "review" are free to have one whenever they wish. We all survived just fine for decades before these requirements were introduced with absolutely no more fatalities or accidents. OK ...Aim...fire.... |
Is it a "criminal offence" to bust airspace? If so then it will go on your record...If not, then don't tell anyone ;)
The best bit about this post is that it shows how serious flying can be. There are many people with the nonchalant attitude "you shouldn't throw stones, it may happen to you". Well it shouldn't happen to you.....That is what being a licensed pilot is all about. I am still of the view that if this does happen to "you" then "you" should have your licence removed until the authorities are satisfied it is NOT going to happen to you again, unless there are mitigating factors in your favour (system problems, bad vis, illness, that sort of thing), and your actions on realising you are in airspace (did you call Heathrow, did you turn OFF the mode C to "hide" etc....)... Some things you can't do anything about - like an engine failure, other things, like busting airspace are completely within the pilots control most of the time. I think there should be a FORMAL BFR - like the FAA one, whereby after 2 years you cannot fly until you have done a BFR with an instructor. However if you go over the 2 years, no problem, you just can't fly until you have done the BFR. That would mean no time contraints and no panic to meet a certain date. Typical BFR should be a minimum of 1 hr ground school and 1 hr flight, focusing on whatever the "student" has problems with, and once done the instructor signs the bit of paper in the licence. It should not be like a mini test, but a training session, and can include Nav but not only traditional DR nav, but allow use of any nav systems in the aeroplane. |
Yes, flying is a serious business. It's very easy to mess up something and get into trouble.
I think most pilots realise this and I also think that is a big reason why so many give up. There is the constant worry of ending up in deep s**t, which you just don't have in other walks of life e.g. driving (except, in driving, speed cameras but one can install warning devices for those). |
We all survived just fine for decades before these requirements were introduced with absolutely no more fatalities or accidents. I agree with you up to a point. A responsible pilot will ensure that he flies safely and thoroughly briefs him or herself before flying, especially if there has been a lapse of some months. One doesn't loose handling skills that quickly. It's more a case of remembering all the drills. On the other hand, flying with an instructor from time to time is not a bad idea (even if they also get lost sometimes - sorry maggie :E). |
Magpie Pedro - was at WW that morning of your bust & was listening in to the phone/radio calls. If I remember rightly, you were one of two aircraft that LHR thought had infringed simultaneously ....
Interesting to hear the follow-up. Can only comment as another PPL, but as someone who's done some mentoring, even when sitting right-seat & most definitely not PIC, I do my own pre-flight planning. Even for a local bimble. I have a huge respect for instructors, since you have to be ready for the unexpected from the moment you approach the aircraft to the minute you sign in the paperwork. As a professional, it's the realising of the mistakes that defines what you do. Those who don't see it as a mistake are those that don't deserve the title. Some of the lessons can be hard. Heathrow Director - who is no doubt the most pertinent person to speak on here - has already suggested this, but I would reiterate that Google Earth is a fantastic resource for pre-flight planning & I use it for every trip. When operating around a control zone like LHR's, it's a life-saver. A GPS is great, but there's nothing like having a mental image in your own head of what you should see when....especially in ratty conditions when you want to keep "head-up". I even print out 3D images of the view at the height I should be at given waypoints. I'm currently looking at running a training course on GE for pilots with another PPL - if anyone's interested, let me know. Situational awareness is a very different thing to knowing how to operate the aircraft. Hope the flying bug is still with you & the experience has let you grow rather than make you hang up the headset. Flying is a privilege. BFA |
Magpie Pedro - was at WW that morning of your bust & was listening in to the phone/radio calls. If I remember rightly, you were one of two aircraft that LHR thought had infringed simultaneously .... |
Full marks to MP for the honesty on the circumstances of this infringement. Must just ask: was it in a certain club aircraft(C172S G-O..G)? That has a panel-mounted GPS, albeit with a very small map.
Also a bit surprised that your 'instructor checkout' at your flying club did not apparently give you enough familiarity with the local area to recognise important features before the heathrow tower got your attention! I hear that White Waltham traffic may well figure on the 'evidence' paperwork at the next 'infringement prosecution' brought by the CAA following someone else's antics in the Heathrow Zone yesterday:oh: |
W-F
Stand corrected. Know at the time they were calls coming in about two aircraft, one that was well inside the zone & one that had just clipped it. Both ended up sat on the grass outside the WW clubhouse. Both from the same operator. Eyeinthe sky Yes - that aircraft you mentioned was one of the two. WLAC instructors themselves can have a fairly laid-back approach to things at times, but they are super-scrupulous about the arrival procedures & circuit discipline at WW, which appears well justified. Extend downwind on certain runways at WW & you are in the Heathrow zone. BFA |
Is the google earth airspace data current?
Last I heard, it was derived from the U.S. military aviation database (the name escapes me right now) which was removed from public access in the summer of 2006. |
bfa,
Stand corrected. Know at the time they were calls coming in about two aircraft, one that was well inside the zone & one that had just clipped it. Both ended up sat on the grass outside the WW clubhouse. Both from the same operator. |
The airspace kmz's I've seen have only been for the US & very limited. Not sure if anyone's created any for elsewhere in the world...
They would have to be regularly & scrupulously updated to be of any practical use of course. You could use 'SketchUp' to produce the 3D polygons quite easily I would imagine though. My suggestion however is actually to place the route ('Path' in Google-speak) on & fly it at the appropriate levels you intend to fly at & then save it as a 'Tour'....with no other information. Terrain exaggeration you set to something suitable for the area. This simulates more closely what you're going to experience from the cockpit....there are no airspace boundaries marked in the sky after all... It is the reading of the terrain & highlighting of prominent features from the view you're going to have where I find it really useful. Not everyone has a feel for topography & I'm not sure it is adequately emphasised in the PPL syllabus. We spend so much time learning all the various nav techniques & flying time is so expensive, we seem to forget this fundamental element of navigating somewhere along the line... Unfortunately instructors probably don't always have the time to run through an entire journey like this on GE with their students, but it's amazing how useful it can be to ask "so, what do see that sings out to you at this point in the journey" for instance. There is always something, even on the dullest routes, whether it be subtle topography changes or a far mast, minor water feature, confluence of linear features. It may not confirm a locationas such, but it can add to your confidence or otherwise of your general position. In poor viz, that 3D "mental image" of what the route should look like can be invaluable. It's the next step beyond reading "ground-to-map" if you like (the ground never lies, but the map can...). If you think about it, it's what you do in your local area....you may well be navigating between some pretty minor features...roundabouts, ponds, individual churches. These aren't marked on the map, even on the airfield plates, but they are marked on your brain. The GPS & the map itself become a back-up to keeping Mk1 eyeball outside & looking for stuff :-) The GPS is a wonderful get-home, but some have delays of several seconds in updating position & you should know where you are to start with, right?!? I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying & how many of these incidents start on the ground?? The attitude of certain clubs to PPL mentoring (even instructor mentoring if judging by this story...) has got to be questioned. Don't the people running some of these organisations remember what if felt like to plan your very first solo navs after your PPL? Bloody frightening & lonely experience for many people that's for sure. Also find it surprising how much emphasis put on the 1:500K map in the UK. Unless you're flying a 250kt hot-ship, the 1:250K is perfectly usable for most GA speeds. Ok, you might need two for a very long nav, but the extra information (runway layouts, topo, small masts, feature details...including exact airspace boundary info) has got to be worth the extra paper. Any comments? In areas with few features, eg. South Africa, it's the only map they use. Wonder if using the 1:250K around London would avoid some of these kinds of incidents?? BFA |
I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying Any comments? |
Is the google earth airspace data current? |
I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying & how many of these incidents start on the ground?? I reckon an hours planing would cover anything in the UK with the benefit of a reasonable moving map and some experience. The GPS & the map itself become a back-up to keeping Mk1 eyeball outside & looking for stuff :-) The GPS is a wonderful get-home, but some have delays of several seconds in updating position & you should know where you are to start with, right?!? |
It does beg the question "why does Heathrow need so much Class A?". We have already established on one of these threads that LAX (for example) is busier than LHR, yet you can go right up to the airport boundary at 90 deg to the runways at sub 2000' before you enter their Class B (in fact Hawthorn airport could be considered "LAX executive terminal")....Of course the IAPs and SIDs are protected to 10,000'. If you have a helicopter you can land on the roof of the international terminal, and if you want to fly in in your fixed wing, then you can (VFR or IFR).
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Too much information...
The problem I find with most pilots and in particular students is that the 1/4 mil map gives them too much information. Their head then gets overloaded with "is it that road or the other road" and the head then becomes 'in-cockpit' rather than looking for the turning point or, more important, the traffic outside.
Overloading the cockpit with printouts of Google this and Google that, IMHO, doesn't do anybody any favours. 1/2 mil is absolutely fine - provided it is studied properly and planned for. Plan to fly - fly to plan. |
DD - You're right, the last thing we need is any extra pieces of paper. Printing out GE images for really difficult waypoints can be useful though.
Main point was trying to get across is that when operating around busy airspace or planning a long unfamiliar nav, we should all the tools available to us. OK, 3-1 time spent on prep might be a bit much, we're not the military planning a bombing run, but an extra 15mins to visualise a route doesn't seem too onerous to me. Happy flying BFA |
why does Heathrow need so much Class A? ... LAX for example
Chalk and cheese. Many of Heathrow's SIDs have large turns inside the CTR (eg DVR/BPK off 27's and CPT off 09). It also contains the initial parts of the go around tracks from all runways. The space is all used (or at least "reserved" in the event of an engine failure on something climbing out of LHR) so it would be difficult to shrink the boundary by much. On the other hand, I have never been refused a SVFR transit via BUR/Ascot whether LHR have been on easterlies or westerlies in 20 years of flying around this area. For an SEP, there isn't really an option to fly across the eastern end of the zone. The only possible room for improvement (imho) would be to pull the zone surface boundaries in around the western ends so that Denham, WW & Fairoaks ATZs were completely outside the zone and perhaps lift the base from SFC to 1500' around the western area at Ascot/Bracknell/Burnham. |
In the US large Turbojet aircraft are not allowed to operate below the Class B floor (or outside its lateral extent) when operating to the airport for which the Class B was established - so they must contain all of the missed approach tracks, SIDs and STARs (which on a casual glance appear to be equally complex to those of LHR). Conversely, LHR would seem to need more holding capacity. I suspect this is primarily due to exceptionally high runway utilisation, aggravated by a European ATC infrastructure that is not particularly joined up, and, I suspect, an inability to coordinate speeds of inbound long haul aircraft (the later two making flow control less effective than it seems to be in the US).
Most US Class Bs would have a 1500 ft shelf allowing the BUR-ASCOT transition without bothering LHR-SVFR (but of course with mandatory Mode-C). I have been less successful on this particular transition, probably only getting it 50% of the time. I am told this is just luck of the draw in that it can only be used one direction at a time. In addition, many of the places like WW, Denham, Fairoaks would, in the US, have some breathing space around them due to the smaller footprint of the inner ring (that goes down to SFC) of the Class B. |
"I really wonder how many PPL's follow the military rule of thumb of roughly 3 hours prep for 1 hour's flying":rolleyes:
Oh come on! What an incredible waste of time 2.5 of those 3 hours would be. On that basis how do you explain a low level military Jetstream very nearly T-boning me at 500ft while in the circuit at Bodmin and well within Bodmin's ATZ back in 2002? Maybe the Jetstream crew on that day needed more than 3 hours prep? Or maybe they're just human like the rest of us and balls it up occasionally too despite all the planning. Answers on a postcard please... Weather prep is far more significant to light plank operators with or without the IR. Nav prep is a moveable feast and can be done preflight far more rapidly nowadays with navigational software and (relevant) NOTAM downloads - how many times have you been able to maintain the chinagraphed line on the chart for a 100 miles leg at 2000ft? Didn't think so, me neither (the only time I have managed to go in a straight line or on a pre-ordained course for a heck of a long way is in an airway above the weather and in class A airspace). Some element of re-planning in the cockpit is an essential in-flight activity on almost every VFR low level flight I do. This is usually due to weather if there are cells of CB around. SB |
I have done so. Mate of mine flies bizjets and was coming back to Long Beach from Phoenix. They were running late and my mate was flying back to the UK that night for a holiday. It was rush hour and the traffic at rush hour is a night mare (as you probably know), and they didn't have very long to get to LAX...So once they landed, the Citation owner wheeled out his jet ranger from the hangar, and flew my mate to LAX....! Wonder if you could get a SVFR from S to N across the Heathrow CTZ "via the overhead" :) |
Haven't got my charts on me - but H9 crosses Heathrow -at 800'.
I have done it North - South several times. |
Heathrow overflight/helil and fixed wind synergy
Helicraig, I've also crossed Heathrow in helicopters at low level in the helilanes a few times in the past. You are expected to hold and then time your crossing to coincide with a gap in the heavies on final. It is a fantastic experience. When Battersea wasn't quite so extortionately overpriced I had reason to venture into the helilanes. I think that as long as Von Essen/Premiair own Battersea the prices will remain prohibitive for those of us who are non-oligarchs and have to pay for our own flying hours.
Englishal, the best way to get to/from your fixed-wing aircraft is by taking a helicopter to the airport from your back garden. Using a helicopter and fixed wing aircraft synergistically adds massively to the satisfaction of ownership. I always think that comparing the plank and the whisk is like comparing apples and oranges. Both have strengths and weaknesses and suit different missions. I suppose the best option would be to have a 1000m paved runway in your back garden (like John Travolta), then you could jet everywhere and not have to worry about a chopper. I understand Sir Bernard Ashley used to do the heli/Fixed wing thing with an A109/King Air combo. My steeds of choice (on a somewhat lower budget) are R44II/M20R. Jet Ranger/Citation sounds like a nice pairing though! Decadent - Yes! Flash - Yes! Fun - Yes! Beats the hell out of sitting in the car though (except when the Wx is bad). SB |
As I asked a few posts ago.
I suspect this instructor will have far less time true PIC time than most PPl's of 100hours. They are trained as a multi crew pilot end of story. Why intergrated are due a reduced entry course requirment for the FIC is pure bollocks. I suspect that the poor lad unsupervised PIC time is in single digits how the hell can anyone expect them to have any command descision potential or PIC airmanship. They haven't had to do any all through there course they have always been supervised. Single pilot SEP is something the person is untrained for and not equiped to train. They shouldn't have been rated to be in the place to **** up in the first place. |
Doesn't Jocklish utilise any form of punctuation? It should, that last post was practically gibberish.
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Jocklish is a unique form of Inglescot which is apparently gibberish on the surface but usually highly amusing and with great insight....
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Insight, or total tosh depending upon your point of view.
Low time instructor comes here, tells his story with the best of intentions only to be served ill written, smug comments. Totally unnecessary even when written from a position of perfection. |
I am sure Jock can speak for himself, but personally I read his post as a criticism of the system not the instructor.
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That may well be but it was ill written (in more ways than one) and merely served to rub the guy's nose in it. No blame culture anyone?
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It's not a smug comment and to be honest such a trip as 950 hour instructor and a 4000 hour total pilot; I would be quite nervous about it to be honest for the first time. Airways IFR cleared I wouldn't have a problem with it, but VFR with no prior experence, no thanks. I could see myself doing exactly the same thing.
I have reservations about not only the system that put the poor lad in that postion in the first place, but also the supervision in regards of the FI who authorised sending a restricted instructor on such a trip if they hadn't done the trip before. I wouldn't have authorised him. I would ask if the supervising FI has been talked to never mind the punter. If you see it as tosh thats your opinion, I still reackon the system and the school gave him an unreasonable amount of rope to hang himself by. And you are another pilot that has no clue about no blame culture. It is not a get out of Jail free card for incompetence. I would argue that he was put in a postion under supervision which he should have never have been in. The supervising FI should have been in court as well. |
And you are another pilot that has no clue about no blame culture. You know what they say about untested assumptions Jock.................. :rolleyes: |
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