Baby Bear,

It may depend where you are but over here "VFR over the top" is quite legal. You just have to maintain cloud, traffic and terrain clearances.

mm flynn:

If you have an IMC rating, its privileges say that it “… entitle[s] the holder of a JAR-FCL Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) to fly as pilot in command of an aeroplane in Class D or E airspace in circumstances which require compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules.” That clearly overrides JAR–FCL 1.175.

Well, it does for Classes D & E at least. What I don’t understand is, what about Classes F & G?

I'm surprised that no one has quoted the original text:

1.175(b) In JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night), the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted. National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in accordance with IFR other than in VMC without being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be restricted to use of the airspace of the State of licence issue only.

The UK is clearly a "JAA Member States where national legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR under specified circumstances (e.g. at night)". Therefore, within the UK, "the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR, provided that pilot holds a qualification appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and flight conditions in which the flight is conducted."

Surely that permits a UK PPL without instrument qualification to fly IFR in circumstances that meet the restrictions of paragraph 3 of Schedule 8 Section 2 Sub-Section 1, which Jim59 quoted above.

I am going to regret this post as bookworm is nearly always right .... But here goes.

The UK requirement for night vmc flights to be conducted under IFR is clearly a target for 'specified circumstances'. However, I don't see how operating in sub-VMC falls into this category. Especially, as the ability to operate in IMC (ie not VMC) is not specified but rather is not mentioned as excluded.

It would be interesting to know the CAA's intent. After all the UK has been, I believe, unique in allowing PPLs to operate under IFR (with a range of limitations)

Is there a "right" when debating interpretation like this? I thought we were just having fun!

CAA lifetime licence holders, self declare yourself IFR, disregard the cloud separation requirements with impunity and skim the fluffy cloud tops until your little heart's content.

JAA PPL holders who knows any different anyway.... ;)

We are! I had to break off for a very enjoyable dinner!!!

IMHO, one of the most pointless things to debate in aviation are the VFR cloud spacing rules :)

European pilots are fortunate to not have an oral exam. Some FAA examiners just love to pick up on this area during the oral... cloud spacing rules versus airspace class versus day/night :)

The US is very flexible, and you can fly portions of IFR under VFR but remaining on the clearance. For example, departing under an IFR FP which may take you one a big SID all over the place - if it is VFR conditions you can request say a "VFR climb en-route" - basically bypass the SID and climb VFR subject to ATC approval of course and remain on the IFR clearance.

They also have the "IFR to VFR on top" clearance which is a useful clearance to climb through the cloud. Once on top, you cancel IFR and continue VFR. If not on top, you continue IFR or whatever you decide to do (shoot the approach back home for example).

Great system :ok:

[edit: you need an IR of course;)]

We won't even get into a "cruise" clearance!