Heheheheh !!! :}

Oh yes, and ref: the requirement for a POH.

It's not, so far as I know, an ANO requirement. However, the various certification standards used for aeroplanes, of which there are many, all require a POH to be written, with varying requirements for what should be in them.

For reasons that I don't claim to either understand or agree with, the PFA/LAA have historically regarded this requirement as optional and many of their aircraft have no POH, and those which do rarely have a POH which actually complies with the airworthiness standard.

To me, the POH is a cheap but useful flight safety aid, and I think that the PFA are wrong not to insist upon one, and the CAA wrong not to make them insist upon one. However, it's what they do.

G

The way it works in our club is simple. We have a defect log (an IVW-approved electronic one which runs alongside the reservation system actually). Everybody can enter defects in the log, regardless of how minor. Before the flight, in addition to the A-check, you review the list of defects and determine if it affects YOUR flight. But an aircraft is not automatically grounded when a defect is written down.

It is rare for aircraft to have no defects at all (unless fresh out of maintenance), and it's equally rare for an aircraft to have more than, say, ten defects. So this is entirely doable.

If somebody notices a defect that makes even VFR Day flight illegal or impossible, then in addition to entering the defect in the log, you also inform the reception people, who will then confiscate the logbook (effectively grounding the aircraft) until maintenance has had a look. They might also ask an instructor or experienced pilot for a second opinion and if necessary will inform other members who have made a reservation for that aircraft.

This works well, even for minor defects. And it avoids surprises. For instance, we have a VFR only aircraft which is also used for aerobatics (R2160). It's not certified for IFR so it does not need an AH, but it does have one. The AH is worn, probably partly due to the aerobatics, and has a sideways deviation of about 15-20 degrees. It's in the defects list and maybe it will be fixed eventually, maybe not. It's not something that makes a VFR flight illegal so nobody really cares, but it is something that an instructor will want to know before he books this aircraft for an "under the hood" PPL lesson.

The system is setup so that everybody can add comments to defects as well, ranging from "second opinion please", "defect not found", "here's a workaround" to "parts on order" and eventually "repaired". And the reception and a few other persons are able to enter official "flight restrictions" ("No IFR" for instance) too.

For an aircraft operated on a CofA, it has to have an Approved Flight Manual (which, ordinarily, is also the POH) and that Flight Manual forms part of the CofA for the aircraft. The 'Limitations' section of a Flight Manual is not guidance ... compliance is mandatory otherwise the CofA is invalidated.

In the Limitations section of many (but not all) Flight Manuals, you will find something called (or words to the effect of) "Kinds of Operations Equipment List", which shows the systems and items of equipment that must be installed and operable for different flight regimes (normally VFR day, VFR night, IFR day, IFR night). Again, this is mandatory, not discretionary. The requirements (other than duplications) listed in Schedule 4 of the ANO are in addition to those listed in the KOEL.

FWIW (not much, admittedly!) what both you and Rod1 have observed about the need for an anti-collision light is not the whole story. True, you don't have to have one. But if one is fitted, Rules 47 & 48 of the Rules of the Air require you to display it whenever the engine is running or, if it is defective, to have it repaired "at the earliest opportunity".

In that case, I stand corrected.

I know relatively little about permit aircraft and really should make an effort to find out more at some point.

So if you were planning on flying a PFA / LAA type aircraft, where would you look to find basic stuff like speeds, fuel burn, weight and balance figures etc?

There will certainly be a W&CG report for the aeroplane, but for the rest I'd ask experienced pilots of the type (perhaps via LAA's coaching scheme), and maybe use sales brochures, unapproved foreign manuals and the engine manual (which usually does exist), then apply some healthy safety factors - although ultimately, I think if I bought such an aeroplane, I'd rather enjoy the task of generating the data and producing my own, which I have done before.

Permit aircraft (or vintage aircraft) are wonderful fun, far more so on average than your typical "modern" Piper/Cessna product, but they do require you to get involved with your eyes wide open.

G

There are a number of categories of LAA Permit aircraft, one of which is ex-CofA, so those will be reasonably consistent in construction, and have (out of date) POHs.

Ex-Mil Aircraft can use the Mil documents.

I am familiar with the home-build Kit planes - ours is an RV-8. With all the "options" (160HP - 200HP, 15lb Fixed Pitch Wooden prop, 55lb Hartzell VP Prop, you design the panel from 3 clockwork Insts to more EFIS than an Airbus etc. etc.) let alone construction variations, the handling characteristics and techniques vary wildly - let alone performance (take-off ldg dists, speed, fuel consumption). A "POH" to cover all RV-8s is therefore a non-starter.

A nominated test-pilot does the initial flying and establishes some bottom lines on performance and handling i.e. is it safe. However, thereafter you are on your own... Knock up a checklist on your PC, add some things when you realise something got forgotten, see how fast it goes... Great fun!

NoD

To be fair, I have hired their aircraft five times in the last couple of months and it was only this last time their were significant faults (and then with two aircraft on the same day!). The only other fault previous was an intermittent radio volume knob. They generally have good availability at short notice although the reception staff can sometimes be grumpy (but not as a rule).

I am really confused about the tech log thing though and I will continue to record defects if I feel they effect the safety of the aircraft.

By the way it is a requirement that an aircraft have an anti-collision light turned on even during the day for VFR. If one faults in flight one can still fly on to one's destination as long as it fixed at the earliest opportunity. (This I remember from my PPL air law exams)

Quote:- By the way it is a requirement that an aircraft have an anti-collision light turned on even during the day for VFR. If one faults in flight one can still fly on to one's destination as long as it fixed at the earliest opportunity. (This I remember from my PPL air law exams)

I dont think so.
My a/c has never been fitted with any lights whatsoever since it was built in 1959. It is legal. It is a group A. Fixed wing.
It may be that lights IF FITTED must work, rather like the MOT on cars.

Well if carrying out that many A checks on a Yak in one day, folk will start to notice hand prints on the underside of the fuselage!

On a more serious note.. If you're the captain of the aircraft (as a solo hirer you are), do you trust the inspection of the aircraft done by the previous person (hirer, student or instructor) enough to sign for it yourself??

I think it's always worth asking yourself if the aircraft is fit for the flight you are about to do. Many are obvious, by that I mean if your next flight is going to be aerobatic, are there any loose articles at all? Parachutes? If the flight is over lots of water, are there enough life jackets, dingies? If the flight is likely to be on the limit of the aircraft performance, can I get rid of some weight? or even ask yourself if the plane you're renting is likely to give the published performance stated in the manual.

It may be a peice of crap, but you signed to say it's ok! :}

I'd be careful about shouting too loudly about that one, if I were you.

You might find yourself doing the return trip on some of those more tricky sectors on foot.

The 'bus only has a finite amount of power available, and it is a matter of common knowledge how much fruit crumble you can put away at a sitting.

This is correct according to Jeremy Pratt's PPL Air Law Course. Only holds true for UK-registered aircraft.

Julian, you have a P.M.

I think the original poster was being sarcastic! Doh!!!!