For what it's worth, the issue is not about whether or not a GPS is good or bad. It is more about what people do when they are flying and their ability to look out.

In my gliding days I have painful memories of my instructor in the rear seat bashing me on the ears when I didn't look before turning. We were also trained to look for other gliders circling (amongst other things) so we could find thermals or signs of potential lift. At the same time we would need to know where we were to get either back on track or to our destination. All of this was before GPS was generally available.

I contrast this with my experience in the world of powered flight. Very few people have a decent lookout, partly because of limited visibility but often because it is not taught at all well. Add to that the fixation some pilots have to the magenta line and there is no doubt that SOME pilots are not well-practised in looking out or even worry about it.

Too often I have had close calls when another pilot has failed to follow the rules of the air and made the slightest attempt to alter course. As I don't trust anyone to do the right thing (except me!) I make sure I give other aircraft a wide berth, as far as possible.

It may be that they are flying on instruments in VFR conditions or be on autopilot. Despite what many say I doubt they are looking out as much as they should.

If only they started in gliding they might understand the need to keep a proper look-out....:ok:

We have traveled down this road discussing something that is nothing more or less than using common sense in how we should view the most modern most accurate navigational aid available to the masses at a price that is affordable for all.

Lets not quit here, lets keep this going and chuck another item or two into the box.

When flying long ocean legs or over desolate areas of the world where HF is required we seldom if ever use it because we carry satellite phones that are reliable and give us crystal clear communications anywhere on earth should we be unable to communicate via the normal oceanic radio frequencies....either direct or by relay through other aircraft.

My question is this displaying poor airmanship?

robin

I'd love to agree with you, but my experience is that many glider pilot's knowledge of the roolz of the air is normally that everyone else should accomodate what they wish to do, as they have no engine

This includes a non radio glider landing on the reciprocal to the duty runway, causing a vey late go around and then saying 'sail before steam' as an excuse. A similar event recently saw a student pilot break a perfectly good aeroplane.

Don't let Shy Torque see your comment, as he had an even closer call when a glider nearly landed on top of his aircraft during the take off roll.

PS: Glider pilots are also usually pants at radio work and many don't even bother to get a FRTO licence - now that is bad airmanship in my eyes.

A quick call advising the circuit traffic of intentions will see us breaking in all directions to let a glider in, no radio calls leaves us all guessing and that is needlessly risky.

You mean you don't use carrier pigeons to let ATC know your intentions, whilst plotting your latest position using a sextant? :ooh::ooh::ooh::ooh:

..I'm thinking more about areas of the UK in VFR conditions. Try flying in the area of the CPT VOR at 2000' on a 'summer's day' without looking out the window.

Proper knowledge of using GPS means you don't need to be in the vicinity of a choke point like the CPT VOR and thus aids safety.

Proper use of GPS means spending more time looking out 'seeing and avoiding' and less time heads down 'avoiding' CAS or trying to establish position.

All I am getting from the anti brigade are examples of people abusing GPS as Max says.

Any tool is potentially dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't understand how to use it - try putting a large ferrous object near the whisky compass and see what happens - its been done before.

My point exactly - proper use of GPS doesn't track you overhead the VOR, but out to one side, but so many people 'join the dots'. Also, when you get close you want to ensure you keep a good lookout.

Having flown with quite experienced clubmates I've been appalled at their inability to look-out. But as a 'super sky-god' I never make mistakes, do I....:yuk:

robin

You make a valid point, but what you are describing is bad airmanship, not a technology problem.

If I choose to dive my aircraft to VNE1.5 and the wings fall off, is that an airframe problem?

OK. This thread started making a point about the potential distraction of a GPS in the cockpit. Plainly this is an airmanship issue.

Fact: GPS can be a distraction to pilots
Fact: Modern avionics can reduce the workload for pilots. BUT and it is a HUGE BUT it takes proper training and practice before modern toys realise this benefit. There is a period where workload is INCREASED when new technology is introduced.

So to those who are dispariging about those of us who support traditional nav techniques:

Have you undertaken proper training on the GPS you use?
Do you always fly with an upto date data base?
Do you always input your route before moving off chocks?
Do you have a procedure to follow if RAIM becomes unavailable or the box fails?
Should traditional nav not be taught anymore?
Have you ever allowed yourself to be distracted by the GPS?
Have you ever tried to use a GPS in flight you were not familiar with?

Yes there is an equivalent list for traditional nav techniques. The difference is that there is formalised training in the PPL for traditional nav. GPS is a wonderful tool providing it is incorporated in a proper airmanship like fashion. I think the point VOD80 was trying to make is that it seems that people are forgetting proper airmanship when sat behind a GPS.

F3G,

Chuck makes a good point. But I am pretty sure his experience means that his approach to using a GPS would be vastly different to the average PPLs approach. Use a GPS because Chuck says so is not a complete enough story - you need to know how he uses it.

F3G
 

I'd love to agree with you, but my experience is that many glider pilot's knowledge of the roolz of the air is normally that everyone else should accomodate what they wish to do, as they have no engine

My experience is that most power pilots do not lOOk out sufficiently. Case in point last year a power pilot flew over our site at about 1500ft whilst a winch lauch was in progress. (Shown as cables to 3000ft on chart) The large red and white glider in a 45 degree climb in front of him was not even noticed as he did not deviate in the slightest. How he missed the cable we will never know. How can a power pilot follow the rules of the air if he is not even aware of any other airscraft in his vicinity? Let those without blame cast the first stone.


This includes a non radio glider landing on the reciprocal to the duty runway, causing a vey late go around and then saying 'sail before steam' as an excuse.
Inexcusabley rude and inconsiderate. Was the signals square set up and in use?

Don't let Shy Torque see your comment, as he had an even closer call when a glider nearly landed on top of his aircraft during the take off roll.
What about all clear above and behind? Did he not look before lining up?

PS: Glider pilots are also usually pants at radio work and many don't even bother to get a FRTO licence - now that is bad airmanship in my eyes.
Many dont even have radios. I fly from a site that has 60,000+ movements a year and peak activity of 200+ movements per hour all without radio. What is the expression about priorities Aviate first , communicate last or something similar.
A quick call advising the circuit traffic of intentions will see us breaking in all directions to let a glider in, no radio calls leaves us all guessing.
Agreed if landing at a power airfield.

My 2Ps worth about GPS. Very useful AID, Particulary for airspace. With the sinister spread of contolled airspace VFR pilots are being forced into an increasing number of choke points i.e. near bath. To avoid busting these it is important to know your position accurately. Nothing should be allowed to disract you from a good lookout be it GPS, VOR, passengers, radio or map.
PPL and glider pilot for 30 yrs

Here we go again. Yes, of course I looked. :rolleyes:

I was departing from a military airfield on an instructional flight in very hazy conditions. As we were holding on the eastern side to line up on runway 31 we were looking into a low winter sun to see circuit traffic. There was another aircraft on the runway which was landing and we were instructed by ATC to expedite line up and wait behind it, which we did. There were also three other aircraft joining, or in the circuit, all of which we saw, including one turning to finals behind us. The glider pilot apparently approached the airfield from the west (directly into sun and head-on to us as we had waited to line up, so presenting a minimum profile in the glare). He cut across the downwind leg and in front of two other aircraft. As we were lined up waiting, he was behind us. As we were rolling at close to 50 kts, a white glider flew directly over us with spoilers out and landed very close ahead. I took control from my student, picked up the starboard wing with the aircraft still on the port mainwheel, and narrowly managed to lift it over the port wing of the glider and yawed us left to prevent a collision.

The glider pilot had a radio in working order but didn't bother to use it. He also had the choice of landing anywhere on the 3000 feet plus circular grass airfield, or in the adjacent fields but chose the duty runway. He could easily have landed alongside us, or flown across the runway and landed beyond on the grass. He apparently then blocked the runway with his glider for some time as he was in no hurry to move it.

Droopystop

I am sure that Chuck's extensive experience and skill means he is vastly more capable than many pilots.

However, he is also an experienced instructor and in recommending that pilots use an appropriate mix of the tools, am sure he has considered this point.

How Chuck uses GPS does not really matter to me (or other pilots), what is important is how I (or they) use it and how it enhances flight safety. For example, I always use a chart and PLOG. I also use bearings from VORs and DME if available, as well as GPS. Then there is pilotage (which I find is really useful in tandem with GPS, but stands alone too) and I time the flight with a stopwatch on my board.

If I enounter RAIM or any other failure mode, then life just got a little more awkward, since I am augementing classic navigation techniques with the new technology and have just lost one of my multiple data sources; the others remain and I can always talk to a radar station or even get a VDF steer if it is required.

Other users, e.g. IO540, are more sophisticated (and also more capable pilots than me) in their use of GPS.

One of the disturbing aspects of some of the comments on the thread is the assumption, despite may of us posting to the contrary, that using a GPS does not replace traditional skills, but builds on them.

Anyone who relies on a one form of nav is asking for trouble.

Cumulus Rider

Yes, it was, but the glider pilot had apparently got himself into a position where energy did not allow him to comply.

BTW, I've never encountered a problem with people who are both PPL & glider pilot; conversley as I did a bit of gliding before PPL, have always tried to put myself in their shoes too, e.g. keeping a very good lookout under CUs on nice days.

Blasting through a winch zone is unforgiveable.

BTW, I didn;t cast the first stone, just returned it to from whence it came :}