Looking out of the window while VFR?

[VOD80]

I’m coming back to flying and, wow, things have changed!

I originally started off by buying an Auster and then looking for an instructor to teach me to fly it. That was fun with Dave Coulson at Skeggy! Did the whole thing in minimum time over a winter. It was quite an experience to wake up in the Skeggy caravans and find the water in the toilets frozen over!

Aye, we were tough in those days…

Flew the Auster up and down France a few times with nothing but an upside down compass, a map and a watch. Did a lot of flying until about 1999 then stopped. Got my medical back in 2003 (I wear hearing aids now, so there was some trepidation!) but didn’t really fell the bug. Now, it’s alive in me again and I’m raring to go.

Except…

Now, everyone’s got GPS and can’t/won’t fly without it! I have a friend who took me for a flight at the end of last year – three GPS – for little more than little local flights around the patch!

So, does nobody look out of the window these days?

[kalleh]

Using GPS usually leads to less time looking down on the map, i.e more time looking out the window.

[VOD80]

Using GPS usually leads to less time looking down on the map, i.e more time looking out the window.

I'll take your word for it... not what I saw though. All I saw was a blind following of the line on the map!

Looked like more time "in" the cockpit to me

[NorthSouth]

VOD80:

So, does nobody look out of the window these days?

There's still some diehards left - where I fly we're a solely map and compass operation. I'm all for having GPS but in my view it's vital to teach students the basics thoroughly and GPS training should be left to post-licence. Having said that I do think it's a moot point whether GPS or map+compass leads to more or less lookout - and whether that lookout is focused on ground features or incorporates looking for other traffic. In my experience most people are pretty crap at both unless they've been taught by military (or ex-military) instructors who physically and verbally abuse them every time they fail to look out. But no, I don't advocate that style of instructing!
NS

[IO540]

So, does nobody look out of the window these days?

No, why? Actually I do when landing. But it's not necessary for takeoffs if you set the heading bug accurately.

Anyway, welcome to the 20th century

Did you notice all the horrible controlled airspace on the map?

[VOD80]

Did you notice all the horrible controlled airspace on the map?

We had that before, as well! Although I suppose you think the Auster's slow enough that we could send off the carrier pigeons

The airspace around the south of France is pretty "controlled" as well and I've trundled up and down there in the past without GPS.

Only knocking it a bit! I'm just a little surprised by the dependency that exists

[VOD80]

NorthSouth:

But no, I don't advocate that style of instructing!

It's a shame! Dave Coulson (I don't know if he's still around) was a little bit like that.

And agree with you about GPS being a post licence thing as well.

[S-Works]

'Dry' Dave is still around. Coulson FLying Services at Cranfield.

[K.Whyjelly]

Originally Posted by IO540

Anyway, welcome to the 20th century

You are so last century IO540

[KiloMikePapa]

Integrate GPS training now

And agree with you about GPS being a post licence thing as well.

I strongly disagree. I think the very fact that GPS use and integration in cockpit procedures is not part of the training is causing the problems mentioned, not solving them.

Have you ever navigated in unfamiliar airspace over areas that don't have a lot of significant terrain features? And then to top it of the controller asks you to report VRP Sierra or to stay out of his CTR! The total amount of attention you have is limited and as soon as your navigation eats up a major part of the attention available to you, you will have a potentially dangerous situation developing.

Don't misunderstand me: GPS use has to be taught (sic?) in addition to the more traditional navigation techniques but we have to stop pretending GPS does not exist and will not be (ab)used.

[Piper19]

With GPS I do look more outside, since I feel more confident of my position. I still fly map and compass, but on longer flights in unfamiliar airspace I put on GPS to check I didn't mistake that one road for another.
The thing is, GPS is not taught for PPL and therefore many people don't use it as should be. 2 or 3 flying lessons at the end of the course would be good, with emphasis on the use of it as standby instrument. But it can help you in those cases where it is too busy to enjoy the flying itself.
GPS is what navigation should go to, imagine people in the 30's saying no to VOR navigation for the same lookout reason.

[scooter boy]

Vastly over-rated IMHO since one field looks very similar to another after a while.

Anyway there is no red line on the ground to mark the edge of controlled airspace.

I only ever rouse from my slumbers (like IO540) inside the FAF or if I get an audible traffic proximity alert - one eye slightly cracked open is usually enough to have a quick scan around.
Otherwise I set max power cruise, set the alarm clock to go off 1 min before landing, kick my shoes off, lie back, let George do the flying and have nice nap.

ZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZ

SB

[RTN11]

I'm halfway through my hourbuilding and coming up to my CPL.

I've never used GPS while flying, and even if i flew with one would only ever use it as a back up to confirm my main means of navigation. Visual.

[englishal]

No, why? Actually I do when landing

Do you? I don't bother. I just fly an autopilot coupled approach, then at about 20 feet chop the throttle and George keeps pitching up and eventually I stall - on the runway. Perfect autoland, why would you want to do it manually ?????

[VOD80]

You guys crack me up!

Thanks for the laugh!

I'm looking forward to mixing with you 21st Century types!

You'll know me by my map and watch (the compass stays in the plane!) - and my qustion as to which airfield this is, actually

Cheers!

[VOD80]

bose-x:

'Dry' Dave is still around. Coulson Flying Services at Cranfield.

If you know Dave, tell him that the fool who learned to fly on an Auster at Skegness remembers him and says "hi"!

Cheers

[what next]

Hello!

You'll know me by my map and watch

As long as you don't look at your map, watch and compass while I cross your way... Really, refusing to use an easily available modern navigation system that frees your attention for more important things than mapreading (like looking outside for traffic!) borders on gross negligence, if you ask for my opinion. The sky is a much busier place now than it used to be 20 years ago.

Happy landings,
Max

[VOD80]

Agreed, just as long as you're not stuck in front of your GPS!

Hello Max,

This is all in French but it is quite simple!

Bienvenue sur le site du Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses - the sixth document down

Basically, they don't think that GPS comes for free An analysis of some accidents where the BEA (the French acident investigators) consider that GPS has been a great distraction in the cockpit (for one thing) and that pilot's have capitulated in front of it in other cases, blindly following it when they perhaps would have done something else had they still been doing it manually.

I know, probably statistically tenuous (not many accidents) and also because there is no evidence to support the other side of the argument (how many people have been saved by GPS, how many people have crashed because they had no GPS) but interesting reading anyway!

So, I'm happy and comfortable with my maps (batteries have never failed yet!)

Cheers and happy landing to you!

[ft]

In my experience in various vehicles, those who can navigate utilize a GPS to spend less time navigating and more time flying and looking. Pull the GPS and they still know where they are, no problem. In fact, they'll have the map in front of them with a thumb near a visible landmark.

Those who cannot navigate spend most of their time following the magenta line head down. Pull the GPS and you are lucky if they have the plate with them which can tell them the frequency to get on to get a QDM.

(The latter category are the ones who will drive their car through three fences and over the edge where the bridge used to be when the navigator database was last updated in 2002.)

In other words, we need to make sure people are confident in their own navigation skills before letting them loose with a GPS.

Yes, I just presented the problem in a way which made it sound like I was giving the solution. Perhaps I have a future in politrickery?

[ozzieausterdriver]

One man and his Auster...with GPS of course!

So VOD when are you going to buy another Auster to go with your 21st century GPS?