10000ft in a Warrior
 

I'd quite like to take a PA-28 up to 10000ft, just to try something a bit different, and for the view :ok:, and I'm wondering what implications I need to consider. While doing my PPL I was briefly taught leaning but have never tried it in practice, would you lean every couple of thousand feet in the climb (reduce mixture untill rpm stops increasing, and richen the mixture slightly)?

Also, in terms of airframe icing, am I right in thinking this is only a problem if there's visible moisture? And finally, during a decent, is there anything wrong with an idle decent with carb heat at the high end of the green arc speed, with an engine warm every so often, or would the high airspeed cool down the aircrame too much, as I believe happens to some gliders?

Many thanks

Mixture lean maybe a couple of times during the climb, and again when at cruise (just gradually for the RPM peak, then as per your SOPs - some schools try and help the engines last longer and teach to run slightly rich). Icing only a problem with visible moisture. I've flown a Warrior many times over the Rockies at 11,500 with no problems...enjoy the smooth ride! Oh another thing...expect the rate of climb to dwindle very quickly above 8000ish feet!

Ben

Check the manual for cruise settings and leaning for 10000 feet as well as climb settings and use those.

10000 feet in itself is not relevant to icing, temperature is, pedantic maybe but you can takeoff on a hot day of 32 deg C and be well in the plus at 10000feet yet takeoff on a cold 4 deg C day and have icing problems at 4000 feet and none at 10000 feet.

In most circumstances icing will not be a problem unless flying in visible moisture ie clouds.

No do not just close the throttle and descend. Try for a managed cruise power descent or reduced power descent rather than closed throttle.

Monitor the manifold pressure which will increase in a normally aspirated engine as you descend and reduce accordingly.

Monitor the speed in the descent keeping it in the green arc. Only go into the yellow arc if the air is smooth and you are sure it will stay that way.

IAS will decrease as you climb TAS will increase so be aware of that fact.

As CanadaAir stated your climb rate will decrease as you climb higher do not be tempted to pull back chasing the climb rate or you will get into a high angle of attack high drag situation. Hot days and heavy and you may struggle with a normally aspirated engine so precise flying is more important at altitude.

Finally while you should not have a problem at 10000 feet with lack of oxygen, a small minority do. Above 5000 feet and night vision suffers which shows there is an effect how much depends on your fitness lifestyle and natural tolerance.

If unsure go for your first high altitude climb with an instructor.


Pace

I did it once in a PA28-140. Took forever to get up there, and climbing into a headwind, I think I was down to a groundspeed of like 50 knots or so at the top of climb. It was a crystal clear day and the view was awesome.

I don't recall my leaning procedure, I did it quite a few years ago. I do recall the climb rate was pretty crappy nearing the top. And coming down with power makes a lot of sense.

Lean as suggested, check your airspace (even if controlled, they'll probably give you a clearance of you ask), avoid moisture, and go for it! As mentioned, for the sake of the engine, do not get up there, and close the throttle. Presuming this is a fixed pitch prop aircraft, once you reach to top, plan to reduce RPM at a rate no greater than 100 RPM per minute, as you start down. If Constant speed, 1" MP per minute. Descend with some power on, and the slowest practical airspeed, to reduce the cooling of the engine, which will now be producing little heat in the cooler air. By caring this way you are preventing "shock cooling" and the person who pays for the maintanence of the engine will appreciate it!

During a flight test for MOGAS, I once had a normally aspirated Cessna 180, with a carburettrd engine, to 20,800'. At that altitude full power was only about 40% of sea level, and the maximum attainable airspeed was stall speed. I regularly fly longer routes in my Cessna 150 at 9,500'/10,500' when the strong tail wind becomes an advantage.

Have fun, Pilot DAR

If you want to get down quicker, while keeping some power on, you can always use flaps to dirty it up - at suitable airpseeds of course. I personally see nothing wrong with coming back to idle *once the temps are right down*, just clear the engine every now and then.

The glider problem isn't so relevant to you - what we have a problem with is cracking the gelcoat (no gelcoat on a warrior..) Having been up there for a long time (maybe 3-5hrs) and truly cold-soaked the airframe, someone comes down rapidly - perhaps 1000fpm or more with the airbrakes out. The skin warms and expands first, while the core is still cold and shrunk.. hence the gelcoat damage.

Lastly a word on perception. If you've not gone high much, you'll find that after tooling around at 10,000 you'll feel like you're in the weeds at 2000, and want to flare at circuit alt. Just keep an eye on it, and believe the clocks.

A bunch of nuts in the C120/140 association had an interesting "how high have you gone" thread, complete with some good pics:

http://www.cessna120-140.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2816

Some of the 120/140's don't have mixture control. Others have a hokey mixture control.

-- IFMU

Nice trick if you can do it in a PA28 WARRIOR (No MP gauge)

Got a 1200cc VW powered Druine Turbulent up to 10k. Took a long time, took longer to get down, pulled off the power - cyl. hd. temp disappeared off the clock - can't do that, restored some power and temperature and stuffed the nose down - Vne 104 kts. cyl. hd. temp. also disappeared. Eventually came down with some power and speed to retain some positive cyl hd. temp.

Might take you a while to get there :uhoh:

The only benefit in climbing to such a high altitude would be reduced fuel burn & a decent tail wind (if any) over a long flight, say >500nm. For a shorter flight there's not much point in wasting time & fuel climbing up there.

Also depends if you have nice enough weather in the first place to get to 10k!

Must be a bit chilly in a Turb though :uhoh:

Smithy

That's really not a good suggestion if there's any chance of flying through rough air on the descent.

With regards to leaning on a climb; wouldn't you always want the mixture to be lean of peak as compared with rich of peak?

The revised LAA flight test schedule for initial permit issue now requires a V(y) climb for 5 mins.

Found myself and air test observer just short of 10 000' at the end of Dec. No heater so it was cold - vis was wonderful, in cold clear blue sky, I swear I could see Holland, Germany and possibly Scandinavia!!:ok:

You'll find at higher levels, you need to fly the book speed accurately to get any climb out of her. Also once in the cruise, note the difference in IAS and TAS (use the little white adjustable ASI scale to compensation for altitude/temp). You learn about this in the PPL but until you get to 10,000 feet and see the speed indicating 90 knots when you are used to it reading 110kts that you realise that the books were right.

Don't forget to set 1013.25 on the altimeter as you pass 3,000 feet in the climb and report your height in Flight Levels.

If you want to get down quicker

I don't recommend this either. Apart from the risk of shock cooling the engine, it's not good airmanship to descend quickly as it hurts your ears. I usually descend from high levels at just 500fpm in unpressurised aircraft and the technique I use is to pitch forward for -500fpm, let the speed build up towards the yellow arc then throttle back so you've got some power on all the way down to avoid shock cooling.

Adjust your speed for smooth/rough air accordingly.

The distance to the horizon is 1.25 times the sq root of the height in feet so at FL100 you should be able to see 125 miles (vis allowing). Also at that height you'll almost always be above any inversion and the general haze of lower levels and in a standard atmosphere, it will be 20 degrees colder up there too, so wear a woolly!

While doing my PPL I was briefly taught leaning but have never tried it in practice

I had the same experience in my PPL and frankly it's shocking behaviour on the part of the schools. With the high cost of fuel, it's negligent to leave the mixture on full and it's not too kind to the engine at high level. How anyone can fly a plane and not use a primary engine control lever beats me. It's not your fault, but I do suggest reading up on the technique both with/without CHT/EGT gauges. Even an approx inch or so is much better than leaving it all the way rich.

Finally in the long descent at low power settings, even clear of clouds, carb ice is a real potential issue, so make sure you use carb heat according to the book.

In unsure, check the POH about leaning. For a Cherokee, I seem to recall it says don't lean below 5000 feet at more than 75% power.

What peak are you talking about? If you mean peak EGT, definitely not!
1) in any event, you'll struggle to get all four cylinders of an O-320 lean of peak;
2) even if you could, the power loss would make the long, slow climb even longer; and
3) because you won't be able to achieve a sufficiently lean setting, at least half the climb will in the 'red box' avoid area for mixture settings.

What you really want to do, above the first few thousand feet which should be at full rich, is climb at peak power, circa 100degF rich of peak egt.

You can lean at any altitude as long as you are under 75% power.

I was taught about leaning by my instructor; I'm not sure why other schools don't bother.

Chilli Monster

Thanks for correcting that posted my piece late last night and have flown too many aircraft with MP gauges :)

Pace

A standard Warrior doesn't have an EGT gauge so leaning ROP/LOP is virtually impossible. It also doesn't have a MAP gauge or fuel flow gauge. The only gauge you have related to engine performance is the RPM gauge.

This is from the PA-28-161 Cadet POH:

This suggests that during the climb you should be running full rich all the time. However, if you look at the performance charts for a climb, then you'll find that the numbers in it are based on "lean mixture per Lycoming instructions". But these instructions are not included in the POH... In fact, later on (in the Airplane Description) another reference is made to the Lycoming Operating Manual.

Personally what I would do in a Warrior (no EGT) is simply lean for maximum RPM, once above 6000 feet, to obtain best climb performance.

Oh, and if you look at the performance chart for the descent you'll find that if you follow the instructions, the descent from 10.000' takes about 12 minutes, or a little over 850 fpm. This might be a bit uncomfortable. As someone else suggested, you'd better aim for about 500 fpm, particularly if you have passengers.

Oh, one more thing, don't forget to factor in the time for climb/descent. It's not a 20 minute jolly. I reckon it will take around 15-20 minutes to get up there and 20 minutes back down again. 20 minutes in the cruise and you've got an hour logged.

Don't forget to consider the winds aloft as well. They can be quite strong at those levels (50-80kts) when it's fairly benign on the ground. With a groundspeed of 20 knots into wind, it will take you a long time to get somewhere!

Honestly, 10k is not a big deal in pretty much any aeroplane....They used to think that if you drove over 30 MPH you'd die - but you don't. Same goes for flying "little" aeroplanes at 10,000 feet, they will all do it ok (unless they are fcuk'd). You have nothing to worry about ;)

Landing and taking off at high altitude is another matter though, not that you'll encounter that in the uk......

I got a VW powered Nipper up to 10k, it has no mixture but still made it. I have flown my Rotax powered machine up to 10k several times, and this also has no mixture control. Interesting that the LAA test now calls for a 5 min climb. I will be at around 7.5k at the end of 5 min so I will have to fly a x country to avoid CAS.

Do a cruse power decent and take your time. Touring Scotland or the Alps it is often necessary to get up to 10k as it is smooth even if the wind is not so favorable. You will wonder what all the fuss was about when you get down.

Rod1

That's why I gave up, cold and bored, still had a bit of RoC left. ( not much tho ! )

Not sure if this is relevant to a PA 28, but the easiest way to get up to 10,000 and above is using wave over hills. Did this over the Preceli hills in Wales last Dec. N Winds of 10-15 knts can give a good updraft on the ridges, took my ATL upwards rapidly, assisted of course by the little engine. However a word of warning, if you take off at +2 degrees it's going to be -18 at 10,000 ft and odd things can happen...like frozen ailerons in my case. :uhoh:

Do it, you'll love the thill of seeing the first two needles returning to zero.

Having said that I doubt you'll bother to do it twice. Unless the vis is fab the view is pretty much the same as from 5000'.

If you are in something aerobatic you can have a fab time coming down.

FL100
 

Yep dont see a prob, just make sure clear of cloud, airspace etc...took us 2 hours to get to FL180, yes you heard right we picked a good day, researched and all the stuff associated with flight at that level and correctly equipped but in PA28 last 4000ft painfully slow.

NM

Got to 12,500 once... On a Paraglider...
takes a long time to come down :ok:

The only controlled airspace you could bump into would be class A and you would not get cleared unless you are IR rated and file IFR.

Just find a nice bit of class G and enjoy.

Flaps!
 

Islander - if rough air were to become a problem, pull them in! Do you perform a flapless approach if it's a bit bumpy?
Fright level - the whole point is a little extra drag allows some extra power while still descending. Cooling is a function of airflow (airpseed), and engine power, nothing else.

If you're actually going somewhere, a high ROD would be bad airmanship - why not use a cruise descent and get there faster. But really, if the whole point is to go to 10k, it's negotiable. Personally I don't buy the 500fpm thing - why do they bother building unpressurised a/c that can climb better than 500fpm? *My* ears don't have a problem at any ROD I've managed to achieve, even spinning. That will vary person to person, I suspect 500fpm is based on the very lowest common denominator. Obviously with pax you keep it sensible.

Kinda sorry I mentioned it...

Amen! Appart from maybe keeping an eye out for the signs of hypoxia, and heading down PDQ (nevermind the shock cooling) if they manifest.

Hmmm, so are you suggesting that the flaps-down descent be undertaken at approach speed?

Shouldn't really be an issue with someone of average pilot-medical fitness though....Even running around at the top of Haleakalā in Maui ;)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2219/...43f0a9f881.jpg

Another point to mention is controlled airspace! Do you homework to make sure you don't fly into the base of an airway/CTA as you climb - enjoy the ride, it's fun!

Interesting but how high can you go? The Seneca Five twin has a service ceiling of 25000 feet.

At 20000 feet she is still climbing at 900 fpm. I have no doubts that on a good day 30000 feet would be achievable with that aircraft.
Maybe should go for a record :)

Pace

Just do it - the view is great.

Just fly normally, keep an eye on the temps and speeds (as you normally do) and have fun. Remember, there is nothing wrong with leveling off for a few mins if the temps do start to get a little low.

Drop a pic on PPRUNE when your done!

Its easier than mucking around at low level, if you pick the right day you will be above the weather so no icing concerns, nice and smooth, very few other aircraft around - especially in Golf (but those that are are likely to be fast!)

Weather, airspace, Ts and Ps, icing - should be all business as usual. Remember for absolute best RoC that Vy reduces by about 1kt every 1000ft (ish) - check your POH, but even sticking to your usual Vy, you should get up there eventually.

Once above about 5000ft, your engine is running at less than 75% power even at full throttle. Although not nessesary, this means you can fiddle about with the mitxture to your hearts content to achieve max RPM - you will have plenty of time on your hands ;-)

For us here close to the alps, 10'000 ft is almost the natural habitat :). With a lot of patience and a few tricks I got my old C150 up to 13'000 ft once briefly. It's fun, the view is great (in the alps at least) and if you are going places you MAY have an advantage in range and speed.

Most has been said. Mixer issues are an item of wide and wild discussions, in the end it comes down to the simple fact that engines like optimum mixture whenever they can get it. In my 150 the O200 would let me know quickly if it was over rich, leaning it was a question of watching the RPM and listening/feeling the engine. Peak RPM is mostly sufficiently exact for these engines, EGT is more comfortable. Some flight schools have a lot of fear of leaning, unwarranted and expensive. It would be close to running your car at full choke (remember those?).

Apart, some airports here even require leaning on the ground in order to get the necessary take off power. Samedan (LSZS) is at 5600 ft AMSL and can have up to 25degrees C in Summer.

Descent is fun time, you finally get some decent speeds into these animals. 500 fpm is good for the ears and comfortable, while delivering a few knots above the usual cruise speeds, often enough the only time you'll ever see the needle near the yellow arc.

Have fun and enjoy the view.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

It's really a non-event going to 10,000 feet in a Warrior. I flew them through my PPL training, and the only time I didn't get above 8500 were on city scenic flights.

Yeah, it takes a long time, particularly if its a 140hp puppy, but if you're going a long way, the higher TAS up there makes it worth while. (Check the winds, though).

In a few of my previous jobs, I was taking 182s to 10, 12, and 14,000 feet many times a day... provided you keep the engine warm, the descents are where you can have fun. Spiral-diving at 4000ft/min is a very entertaining way to get back to the ground again...

Doing it in a turbine makes life so much easier, when you don't have to worry about engine cooling - close the throttle, point the nose at the ground, and don't exceed VNE.

The thing that almost made my heart stop, was the comment on holding a pilot's license, but having never actually leaned the mixture:eek::eek::=

To me it beggars belief that someone could actually train a pilot and think that it was somehow acceptable to not lean! (this is a comment on your instructor, not you)

I grew up at a field elevation of about 5,000', and had typical field density altitudes for takeoff in the summer of around 8,500'. It was a mountainous area, with tops above 12,000', so typical flights in light, normally aspirated airplanes were very often above 10,000 MSL.

My best effort in a normally aspirated airplane was just shy of 18,000' in a Cessna 150. The airplane won't climb there on it's own, of course, but using thermal lifting or orographic lifting plus engine power (or what's left of it)...it will.

What had inspired me at the time was an article by Barry Schiff regarding setting up a light airplane with the a high glide ratio. He talked about setting up a light airplane with a low power setting to fly at approximately a 26:1 glide ratio to simulate a sailplane. He then discussed flying the airplane using soaring and thermally techniques and observing the altitude gain and performance. I happened to have a Cessna 150 available to play with, and spent about three and a half hours getting up there, and then back down.

If you're going to undertake that kind of a project, of course, have supplemental oxygen available; this should go without saying. If your'e accustomed to living at sea level, then even a climb to 10,000 might consider taking oxygen. It's not necessary, but your own tolerance depends on your physical condition, age, rest, etc. In the US, the FAA has long recommended oxygen above 10,000 in the daytime, and above 5,000' at night.

Yes, the engine must be leaned; any time a normally aspirated engine is being operated above 3,000' or so density altitude, the engine should be leaned.

There's nothing particularly magic about being at 10,000', but enjoy the trip. If it's not something you do all the time, then any new experience can be a bit of an adventure and enjoyable. Take some time when you get there and examine the airplane performance. Play with the mixture. Try different rates of climb in 5 knot increments, and compare it to the aircraft handbook performance. Pull the power back and try descents at different airspeeds, in five knot increments, note the rates of descent.

We typically flew older normally aspirated Cessna 182's to 15,000 or 16,000 with a full load of skydivers, all day long in the summer, on the weekends. A typical climb to altitude and descent ran about a half hour to 45 minutes, total.

A warrior or cherokee will get up there just fine.

Some aspects of navigation become easier but the hills all disappear.
DO.

Not really a problem here. We've got some which go up to 14'000 ft :}

Did FL120 once in a Pa28-161. Bit mushy up there. Found it setled at about 80kts. The countryside looks a bit different so be sure fix your position over the ground with vor or gps if you can. Lean off on the way up every 2000' for best performance. Keep the cylinders warm on the way down and don't forget to move the mixture knob forward again :eek:.

For added fun and a great view try it on a clear night, stunning (especially the first time).