Chuck,

My comments are not one method versus another. GPS is great. But for people to suggest that one would be mad not to use it is way off the mark. There is no reason why one can't maintain a traffic watch regardless of which properly implemented nav technique you use :ok:

I don't know where you are living Sciolistes but your comment would be fine if there was no penalty for making a mistake. Unfortunately most of the civilised world is covered in controlled/restricted airspace and the UK alone has several hundred serious busts a year, so "something" needs to be done and dead reckoning is clearly not going to get any better because that horse has been flogged since about 1910 and anybody who thinks that major progress is just around the corner a century later is kidding themselves.

And once outside the civilised world, one might just get shot.

Sure, DR works if you do it right, but there are so many ways to make a mistake, and there is plenty of terrain even in the UK where there are few features.

When is a map a map and not a chart?

To say that GPS is absolutely unnecessary when flying VFR is an over generalisation, probably borne out of a narrow pool of experience.

After nearly 20 years of military flying using DR techniques, at up to 330kts at 250 feet in one role, or 140 kts at 50 feet in another, these days I fly a single pilot corporate helicopter, VFR where possible (but with an IFR transit in case of low cloud).

The aircraft cruises at 155kts, most often from private landing site to private landing site. These landing sites are often a hotel car park or someone's back garden. In poor weather I still have to fly VFR in order to make the destination (or even the pickup) but the job would be far more difficult if we had to go back to the old methods, i.e. non-GPS navigation. I do the job by night, too, btw.

Not too long ago we flew helicopters with a manual throttle. Fuel computers made the pilot input redundant but more modern aircraft can still be flown in manual. The same "hairy chested" mentality perhaps says we should not use the automatic engine controls? Or the autopilot? Switch off TCAS too?

Modern equipment is designed to offload the pilot and to increase his capability. By not using what's provided in the aircraft, we aren't proper pilots.

:confused:??? Are we talking about the JAA ATPLs? Perhaps for very general values of "reasonable details" that could be true, as in: "There is something called GPS which stands for Global Positioning System. It has to do with satellites". But the ATPLs go in more detail about EFIS and FMCs for example, than they do about GPS. Go to your favourite question bank and do a search for the relevant terms to get an idea.

Chuck,
That's never happened to me. I've always had an accurate idea of where I was--perhaps not an overly precise idea, but I can honestly say I never found myself flying in the wrong hemisphere by mistake, and only ever once in the wrong continent. Lots of times in the wrong country, mind you :E

Well I was a die hard traditionalist not long ago, but have sine changed my tune! I still believe it is perfectly possible and very desireable to be able to accurately navigate by dead reckoning, using a map, compass, and watch. However, GPS really does take the pressure off you. I bought a simple and cheap bluetooth gps, which I use along with the CAA digital chart and memory map in a pocket pc. In my old open cockpit aircraft it made cross country flying so much more enjoyable than before! In such aicraft map reading when the map is flapping around and the joystick is right where you want to rest the thing is a nightmare! There are tricks you soon learn, but they are nothing compared to a moving map display right where you can see it! Brilliant! I like the digital CAA memory map chart, as you can carry the paper version and instantly switch to it if the signal is lost, reverting back to map reading. The other great feature is the arrow that points out where you will be in 10 minutes at your present speed and direction. Great for radio calls and to work out drift on the go!

SS

PS. One point though ... I'm pretty sure airspace busts have actually increased since GPS came along. Why? Well, I really don't thinks it's just because some "foolhardy" pilots don't use it, do you? :=

Agreed! Reasonable but totally useless detail!! The USE of GPS is not taught at JAA CPL level; in either theory or the flying course.

Cheers

Whirls

Sciolistes, your screen name does give it away, no ? :E

Anyway, re this:
You might be surprised, but this is the way I tend to do it. Not necessarily in your order of importance, but I certainly have my VORs and ADF tuned and monitored. Too much? Not if you're well trained and used to it. Necessary? Probably not, but I look at it as a means of staying proficient with all the kit in the a/c. As an aside, a lot of my flying is done in CAS in a country where position reports are expected to have the format XXX, YY miles on the ZZZ radial of the XYZ VOR.

I agree with Shortstripper, I have the same system. I also don't believe anyone with a brain would suggest that steam driven DR should be allowed to die, any more than basic stick & rudder skills should be replaced with "goto" & "autoland" With a power failure the other day resulting in "No Signal" (position 56deg 18 N--4deg 15 W heading 290M) the line on the map becomes a necessary back up. An object lesson in not relying on it. Nice lunch at Oban by the way & the weather was perfect.

What have these busts got to do with GPS or DR? What it is that places a well executed flight in the wrong place with such regularity? There were regular busts in the Southampton CTA which I doubt has anything to do with what kit was aboard, more how the flight was managed. I wonder if distractions exacerbated by marginal weather (particularly poor vis) and/or insufficient planning are at the root cause.
Agreed. Permit me to rephrase your paraphrase to "GPS is unnecessary when flying VFR".
I regard the architecture of NAVSTAR as well as the operation, function, performance and limitations of GPS as pertinent to the use of GPS. I suspect you are referring more to what buttons to push. However, perhaps the CPL/ATPL theory could describe the Garmin GNS in the same way that it teaches the Boeing FMS. I'd go with that.

With regard to the flight phase of CPL training, what additional training would you like to see?
If there was a prize, it would be yours :}
Don't knock the Haili Salaisse Aviation Academy.
. Proficiency in addition to necessity, nothing wrong with that.

I prefer to fly with a GPS, but I would not leave the ground without one at night!

There have been several times when flying to airports in the Mid West on perfectly clear nights when it took many long minutes before I could pick out the GA airport where I had planned to land from all the city and road lights that surround them. Even when my GPS unit told me I was right over it! :hmm:

Now I can just hear the smart comments brewing about how hard can it be to look for the dark areas. Minneapolis for example, has over 50 lakes in and around the city, any one of which would dampen the sprites of an aviator foolish enough to make that assumption. :=

Personally I think GPS is a fine tool, one I use all the time, and I believe new pilots should be encouraged to use them.

Regards,
White Bear

Sciolistes, I am trying to figure out if you are just trying to troll or if you are serious about your comments regarding the use of a GPS for safety and additional situational awareness........so I read all of your posts and copied this one....


Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 33

Occasionally, with the Capt's agreement, I sometimes choose to disconnect at FL100ish and perhaps get the Captain to take the FD off on final. Keeping on top of raw data handling is important as flying is a multi-faceted skill and all areas need regular exercise. However, the most important thing is managing the flight as a whole which really requires automation to keep work load down for both pilots in anything less than excellent VMC and a low traffic environment (as previously mentioned).

Yes, the 737 is very easy to pole around the sky, but if it does get unstable the situation can deteriorate incredibly rapidly!

Somehow I think you are trolling because even with only 300 hours as a pilot I find it difficult to believe you are trying to convince people that the DR and a pencil and time piece means of navigation is preferable to using the GPS.

Then again I have had a few low time FO's who truly didn't have a clue about flying.

Maybe it is the training they get these days?

If you have a moving map GPS of any type, there is no way you will ever not know where you are while it is working. Period.

Dunno, but I do know that pretty much ALL airspace busts in the UK are now reported, where as in the past this was not the case, and this might just have something to do with it....:suspect:

Regards, SD..

Chuck,

How disappointing.
I didn't say preferable. In the spirit of harmony and cooperation I have gone back over my posts to try and identify what motivates reaching for the the straw man argument.

It must only come down to this line:
Which you may notice has been toned down a bit in response to Shy Torque's post.
I'll rephrase it to:
Happy yet?

Skydriller,
I would tacitly agree for a relatively recent GPS that is designed for VFR flight (with the usual provisos). However, I didn't find the GNS 420 particularly ideal in that regard.

You have to love it when a 300 hour copilot comes here to tell everyone that they have been doing it wrong for thirty five years or more. :ok:

Hmm, probably.

Last night I flew a little under 2 hours from Swansea to Booker in a 1947 built aeroplane. Note night: I was not flying in daylight.

Could I have done safely this without any electronic navaids? Probably - but probably isn't good enough and without them I'd not have tried.

The aircraft has a VOR and a GPS. I'd have accepted either, but as it happens the VOR is U/S so I used the GPS. Plus ded-reckoning, plus IFR (I Follow Roads - the M4 mostly).

Why GPS is regarded in a different light to other radio navaids escapes me. VOR works, as do VOR/VOR and VOR/DME, ADF works but is horrible and just about everything is more user friendly; and, of course, GPS works. The point, to me is that sometimes you don't need extra navaids (such as a pleasant flight around the coast in day VFR) and sometimes you do (such as my flight yesterday) you do. The experienced pilot should be capable of working out their personal dividing line as to when he or she does, or does not require them.

Electronic navaids give no cop-out from basic navigation planning and airmanship. But integrated into them it makes it easier and us safer. Doesn't matter which system.


So, on that basis I think that non-use of systems such as GPS in PPL and CPL skills tests is daft, since pilots will certainly use them after they've qualified so surely the authorities and their delegated examiners should be assessing pilots' competence in their use. Complete reliance upon them in those tests however, should certainly be a cause for a candidate to be failed.

What perhaps we do need in between is more teaching and discussion about how to integrate these various navigational tools and methods with each other, taking us beyond the repetitive yes/no arguments about GPS.

G

Splendid point. As a low hours PPL who can't usually afford to travel long distances, a good deal of the satisfaction I get from flying is in planning the route, and then flying it using the compass, map and stopwatch. While I would never dream of denigrating the reliability and practicality of using GPS, I would venture to suggest that perhaps too many new PPLs forget the fun involved in dr etc once they're let loose with their shiny new Garmins.

Just a thought.

Quote ShyTorque:

You have to love it when a 300 hour copilot comes here to tell everyone that they have been doing it wrong for thirty five years or more.

Actually I have been doing aviation for 55 years and credit a lot of my being here to evolving with technology as it became available.

My reason for posting on the private pilot forum is to hopefully encourage private pilots to evolve past their PPL training and embrace modern technology that may one day save your life.

As to your being disappointed by my comments Sciolistes I apologize for having copied your own post here, however there is a reality in aviation that when you take a position on something that does not fit well with some of the other posters here your position will be measured by your background and exposure to the world of flying.

Here is a make believe situation whereby you may measure your real level of knowledge and experience level as a pilot and thus the value of your advice regarding the art of flying.

I used to be in the business of ferrying aircraft all over the world, now lets assume I need a pilot to move an airplane from say Miami to Berlin, would your credentials be sufficient for me to hire you as PIC to ferry said aircraft?

Well, I suppose that is the nub of the argument.
Specifically, how do you see GPS being examined? As part of the enroute/diversion? Any specific techniques? Would the examiner just switch it off mid flight? Crucially I would want to see somebody handle an unexpected enroute diversion. The problem I perceive with skills tests is that mine was rather benign in that the diversion was usually clear of CAS as the crow flies, I would think the examiner would be looking for the student to show they are aware of the proximity of CAS and how they use the unit to establish that information.

Naturally, I would interested in what the examiner would do if the student called off the test because the database was out of date or the unit was faulty!

Chuck,

Fine, but it seems to me that you deliberately misconstrue my opinions into some ridiculous anti GPS tirade. Ridicule isn't my thing. Fortunately I'm not all that bothered. I may have less than 1,000hrs and only 300 of those in GA, but my comments relate to my personal experience and opinion formed thereof.

Especially with the biggie NDB's that were fitted to Ocean Station vessels...:ok::ok:
Ahhh, the good 'ole days...:}

Loran A anyone...:E