Controlled Airspace Transits
 

I wanted to start a thread about transits of controlled airspace, because it's getting tied up with the Coventry incident, but is really a separate issue altogether.

It's interesting the amount of pilots who complain that they aren't given access to controlled airspace, and the amount of controllers in the said units who say that they never refuse transits.

I wonder if there is simply a mis-understanding going on here?

I can see two reasonable mis understandings that might be happening.

1. Where a pilot requests a fairly direct transit across the airspace but is sent 'around the long way' although inside controlled airspace then he may have technically got a transit, but it wasn't much use. If he keeps getting that then he'll just plan outside next time as he's not getting what he considers a transit. The controller considers this a valid transit.

2. I think there are a lot of pilots who assume a transit as been denied, when in fact they haven't even asked for a transit. They call up say where they are going, maybe request a flight info service, maybe make no requests at all, just give their life story. The controller includes the standard "remain outside controlled airspace" simply to remind them that they haven't been cleared in, and the pilot thinks that his transit has been refused. In fact he didn't ask for a transit, and if he had he may have gotten one. Is this a likely possibility?

Could it all just be a big mis understanding, and lack of good R/T?

dp

It would be nice to think it was just a simple case of semantics but I don't think that is the case.

I've operated just outside a Class D area (Aberdeen) for 20 odd years. In that time I cannot recall be refused a transit without an obvious reason (purple airspace as it used to be called is the one I do recall).

Conversely I have only once been able to transit East Midlands and Birmingham and never Solent - ditto Luton, Stansted, Manchester. Newcastle are good, Teeside presently seem to have a bit of a bee in their bonnet, Liverpool never a problem, ditto Edinburgh, Glasgow, City and Cardiff. Prestwick tend to control you a bit but no transit issues. Never tried Bristol so I don't know!

So that is my country in a nutshell. Highly variable to put it mildly. And yet in that time my aircraft have become increasingly better equipped. And yet once you are over the channel it virtually all changes and transits become routine, with at worst a dedicated VFR routing and frequency.

I've had one East/West transit approved by East Midlands and a second refused (claimed because could not detect my transponder).

I've had Luton transits approved - not following the standard routings via VRPs shown on charts - and on one occasion, when planning to route round the North / East corner, was offered a transit I had not requested. On the other hand when planning to enter/leave Luton's zone to land/depart Rush Green they do like a telephone call to approach first.

I've given up with Luton. Always "standby" response to initial call, I head off to remain clear and by the time they call me back (if at all) I'm always well clear and the transit not needed.

Last week thought I'd transit Gatwick enroute from Brighton to Fairoaks. Called for clearance got the "standby" so I orbited at 2,000' just south of their CTA. Then got clearance "not above 1,500" with a clearance limit of their CTZ. Another three orbits. Then got a clearance with limit BMA hangars south side. Another 2 orbits to be told "could be sometime before I can get you across due to string of inbounds". "Roger" I replied. Another orbit and cleared across the 26 threshold.

I got the feeling I wasn't really welcome and it would have been quicker to transit round the west side without troubling them (although the view not as good!).

Stanstead is not very good at giving transits through it s airspace.

Perhaps if there is a Stanstead controller he could explain why? It seems to be refused also when it s not overly busy and seems more a policy matter than dependent on intensity of traffic. Is my assumption correct?

dublinpilot... thanks for starting this thread. I think it is a good topic to raise... I don`t have any agenda on this and it has the potential for some instructive input from ATC about the day to day management of busy and complicated airspace.

In my experience ATC would rather say yes than no, but of course one rarely knows the bigger picture at the time...

I realise we're not discussing infringements here, but I thought the Fly On Track ATC videos were really useful in seeing things from the other side of the coin as it were...

A series of live ATC recordings of transit flights (preferably with edited R/T in respect of callsigns) would be quite instructive.

For anyone that hasn`t seen them yet ...arranged like this perhaps with some covering notes Welcome to On Track

I think there's also the case of the long "stand-by". Consider the scenario of an aircraft making an initial call at a busy period and being asked, quite reasonably, to stand by. As the clock ticks on, the value of a zone transit diminishes, as it's easier to change course earlier in anticipation of going around the zone, than to make a 90 degree turn at the zone boundary to circumnavigate. By the time the controller gets back to the aircraft, it might be too late for the transit to be relevant.

The pilot might perceive this as a denial of transit. The controller would probably not.

East Midlands has given me transits hundreds of times (I was based there admittedly) -maybe 1 in 10 refused and valid reason given.

Birmingham offered me a transit once when I didn't ask, as did Cardiff - both times my plan kept me outside (underneath) so I said thanks but no thanks.

Accepted: Exeter 1/1, Southampton 2/2, Brize Norton about 5/5.

Not tried asking Manchester for VFR transit, but have found them reasonable (if you're patient) when it comes to survey flying in Class A, and London too.

Consider what makes the controller's life easier. Transit through the final approach at 1000' at 3 miles is unlikely. If there's no-one holding in the overhead, then straight through the overhead at 2000' or 3000', especially at 90 degrees to the active runway is usually not a problem - no-one else is going to be there. Done this at Southampton and Exeter.

Maybe it's the way you ask. If you're clear, concise, professional and give all relevant info without woffling (ie who you are, where you are, where you want to transit to and at what level), you're seldom refused in my experience. Whenever I've planned VFR routes I've tended to draw straight lines from departure to destination (except through London etc) and received clearances all the way.

straight through the overhead at 2000' or 3000' .. no-one else is going to be there

Except if a (faster moving) jet on finals does a go around?

Maybe it's the way you ask. If you're clear, concise, professional and give all relevant info without woffling

Not guilty (fly professionally on my days off from GA, so not my RT)/

I've never had a class D transit refused - from Bournemouth to Edinburgh. Must admit I haven't crossed some of the London ones.....

My advice would be to call early - if you call early and are told to "standby" then you don't need to deviate while you are waiting for your clearance, just keep inbound and normally when they see you getting close they will give you your clearance. If not remind them, THEN deviate. Secondly sound like you know what you want..."transit from A to B via the overhead" or something...thirdly ask for a realsitic clearance - don't ask to transit over head in line with the runway at 1000' for example.....you probably won't get it. Cross at 90 degrees and you probably will.

It must be a myth! These lucky chaps managed all 5 London airports in one day! :eek:

YouTube - 5 Airports 1 Flight

Gatwick used to give transits in the 70s & 80s with no problem at all. I even did Redhill to Shoreham DCT as part of my qualifying cross country route...! A few years later, Redhill to Shoreham DCT in an open cockpit biplane with a hand held radio and no TXPDR! Again, no problem, pleased to be of help!

However, in the past 10 years I have never been granted permission to fly the same route.. Speaking to an ATC chap when i visited the tower at LGW, I got the distinct impression that it was all just a little too much hard work, much easier to refuse it..:sad:

So what's different now to 20 years ago?

Stansted have NEVER cleared me across any part of their zone, so I choose to go round and not even bother speaking to them. Southampton have ALWAYS cleared me across via SAM....Likewise East Midlands, always happy to clear you across their zone, therefore happy to speak to them both:ok:

Gatwick frequently give transits.

Stansted are incapable of handling transits and should be written up on every refusal - the trouble is everyone now avoids asking so they can claim transit refusals are not an issue.

Every where else including Heathrow are fine (although Manchester has the cop out of the VFR corridor to help get them out of jail).

Next time I have some time to kill I might linger just outside Stansted and when they refuse apply the Little Britain treatment - "I'll wait". That might baffle them - only wish I owned an airship.

I don’t think it is the fault of Essex Radar that they often have no time to talk to GA let alone give them transits. They are barely resourced to meet their CAT workload in CAS – often long periods of extended radio calls with little or no breaks to handle anything non-essential, from my monitoring of their frequency. AIUI, that could only be fixed by splitting the CAS into smaller areas and having more controllers. Also AIUI that would be a major redesign and reallocation job, which their paymasters (NATS, and via them the big airlines) neither want nor will agree to pay for.

Having said that, if they have any capacity to talk to GA, there is a pecking order – power ranks higher than gliders.

Last time I tried to talk to Essex Radar, I was in a glider over Haverhill, outside Stansted CTA and below the 3500 upper CAS. They were talking to a power pilot who was working round the outside of the CTA at about my height and coming my way. They warned him of gliders near Ridgewell. He said he could not see any. I tried to call them to advise that that several club gliders were airborne, and not all overhead Ridgewell, e.g. me over Haverhill at the time. On my call, they just said “stay outside controlled airspace” and had no inclination to listen to an impending conflict alert from me. The power pilot, they continued talking to. Evidently more important than a glider pilot, even though we were both outside CAS.

Another time, before that, I was in IMC and listening out on their frequency. They were working some one (an Aztec, IIRC) also outside CAS, coming straight at me. I called them to advise my height and position. Instead of some thanks for a conflict alert, they tried to tell me I had no right to be there. (I had every right, as I told the ATCO, and as he should have very well known.) As they had no intention of diverting the power plane away from my position (no steam gives way to sail, then, in their world), I vamoosed instead.

With new techniques and technologies, there could be hope that ATC may find a way to extend the sharing of CAS use, back towards its original concept when it was introduced. I’m not going to hold my breath, however. I recall the offer I made on behalf of the BGA when airway crossing rights for gliders in VMC were to be withdrawn - could we at least ask ATC if they could allow us to cross airways? “No”, came the answer; “ATC are too busy to talk to gliders”.

Essex Gliding Club and Stansted ATC (before it became Essex Radar) even got along quite well, with meetings to sort out issues that did arise - like the time they got a power pilot to fly up to a glider to get its number, and asked him then, as he was so close, to report an airmiss (when gliders were allowed in the SRZ in VMC without radio contact - old SRZ rules.) The SATCO took the point entirely that such a thing should never have happened. My problems now follow the move of ATC from Stansted to West Drayton/Swanwick - little personal contact these days, and they are noticeably busier with CAT to the point that they cannot handle much, if any GA. Hence, virtually no transits.

My 2p worth.

Chris N.

Given what happened on Sunday, I am surprised at some of these comments.

I recommend all GA pilots to visit and spend an hour, pref on Sunday, at one of the ATC units above, if they havent already done so.

Arrange a club visit, you will be welcomed, I'm sure.

Following that, and if you are safety concious, you will no longer be offended by a 'stand-by'.

[climbs onto soap-box]
Plan your route around, with the transit as an alternate.
If you have planned a transit, with no alternate, and you are denied, in my view that is very poor piloting.
[climbs down again]

Fly safe. Dont be bold.
JAI.

I've only had one transit of Stansted in 14 years: and then it was only after an initial refusal when I went back to them to tell them my 'remain outside CAS' route was blocked by a wall of CBs.

Then to give them due credit I got a clearance along the runway orientation (not across) a half a mile to the east of the runway.

Have tried for STN transits a few times since, always refused: Don't bother asking any more.

Cusco.:rolleyes:

I just do what they advise me to. If im cleared to go through I do if not I go round. I presume there is reasoning behind the instruction or advice. On top of that just check that I remain with in mine and the a/c limitations as per the rules.
They are there to help and that is how I have received all instructions and advice. :ok:

Fancy an opinion from the 'dark side'?
I will only speak of my own unit, as I don't know what happens elsewhere. When we got our 'new' airspace a couple of years ago, it came with a proviso from DAP that we have to give all airspace users access to our CAS.
As it is, we have an area which can be activated for balloons within our control zone ie inside 5nm from the field, an area to the south for gliders from Halesland which can be activated up to 5000' (which conflicts with our down wind leg), another bit to the east, over Bath up to 4500' for the BGA to use when they want and a chunk to the ENE up to FL75 for Grobs from Colerne. Any of these can be activated at any time, within the terms of the various Letters of Agreement. The Bath Gliding Block for example, once opened cannot be closed until dusk, so one glider going up for 20 mins can effectively make that piece of airspace unusable for IFR traffic all day.

Then we get onto transits, we cannot refuse without good reason and we roster enough staff so that we have two radar ATCOs available to man the RAD1 (IFR arrs & IFR deps) and RAD2/LARS (everything else) positions. If we can't man up properly (sickness, equipment failure etc), we NOTAM it and pilots can expect problems with transits at busy times, but we will still do our best. Transits at or below 2000' VFR are no problem to us at all. From 2000' upwards for VFRs, we just have to keep an eye on you to keep IFR arrs & deps aware of your transit. Recently I had an inbound 757 captain complain about a TCAS event he was having to file on, even though the VFR transit was above him, he had been given traffic info and could see it, and the other pilot, who also had been given traffic info, could see him. I ended up doing 45 mins paperwork for something which will have no outcome, believe me, it's a pain in the ass!

As for IFR transits (should you ask for one) you will be given a level which may not be your current level, but it is to seperate you from other known IFR aircraft (after all, that's what we get paid to do). You may also get a heading to de-conflict you from other traffic, but only if absolutely necessary. Most of the time, it's easier to let transits (either VFR or IFR) to continue on their own navigation, but it's just not always possible.

We are also required by DAP, to keep a record of any refusals (I don't think we've hit double figures in either of the last two years) and we also keep a record of amended clearances ie when a pilot asks for a clearance and gets one which deviates from what they asked. That is a function of busy airspace I'm afraid, and won't change because first and foremost, we are contracted to provide ATS by the airport for it's flights and they must therefore take priority (and that's not me being Mr Nasty, it's just a fact of life in my industry).

I only have one problem with the GA community, and other operators who fly point to point (medical services, reconnaissance flights, air taxi, helos for hire etc), calling us too close to the airspace boundary. We need you to call us in good time, 10 miles or so to the airspace boundary, so that we can co-ordinate with our colleague beside us (who has overall control of our controlled airspace and may be busy and unable to talk to us straight away). Then it is more likely that we can give you a transit clearance before you start to deviate from your route. If you are talking to another unit within 10 miles of us, then ask them to co-ordinate onwards with us so that you don't come as a complete surprise to us (around these here parts, if they already know your route, they will do anyway). Look at the half mil map, there's us (Bristol if you hadn't alreeady guessed), Cardiff, Filton, Lyneham and Yeovilton, all within a block of airspace no more than 50 miles x 30 miles. We all work well together and if I had a pound for every transit co-ordination phone call we make between us in just one week, I'd be a happy man.

Help us to help you and it'll all run nice and smoothly. Happy flying.

Generally find transits not too bad - most recent examples are Solent, Brize Norton, East Midlands - although EM was inbound to Tollerton so it is pretty much on route when from the South!

HAd an interesting one recently where overhead Newbury en route to Wellesbourne I called Brize for a transit of the eastern side of the zone and was told to call Farnborough?

Actually routed around and carried on listening to Brize - did not seem that busy but who knows. Coming back later the same day the Wx was slightly better so routed over the top of the zone at 4000ft.

I agree it often seems to help if you can call early and sound like you know what you are talking about and keep it concise. I have heard lots of life histories which make it difficult for all of us - especially if you have been asked to report at a certain point .....

Have to query the comment from the glider pilot earlier - you want to talk to ATC but gliders generally will not carry a transponder because it's too heavy - surely if you want a better service from them you could at least help them?

Edited to add - just read the post above and have to say it sounds great. Have not been towards Bristol recently but wish (from a pilots perspective) it was sometimes more like that elsewhere.

TZ

Doesn't it warm the cockles of your heart ? A thread with constructive and adult comments without all the abuse and vitriol we often see. Long may it remain so.

I can't say that I have ever had a problem with transits, with my one and only refusal being from EM, not sure what the reason for it was. That said, I have always received every other transit from EM and other zones following a polite request.

A few years ago I arranged a visit to Bristol ATC whilst doing my ATPL exams. Found them all to be very friendly and polite. The man who looked after me that day (IB) explained what was happening even though he was training another ATCO at the same time. I sat there for a good couple of hours watching what went on and how it all worked. It was very interesting and gave me a good understanding of how things work from the "other side" of the mike. All VFR GA transits were given equal consideration along with the CAT, and it brought home to me just how early the heavy stuff had to be asked to adjust headings to maintain separation from other traffic. Communicate with them and do it early enough, and you should have very few problems. I would also recommend an ATC visit to anyone who hasn't ever been before.

Sound professional
 

I think you stand a better chance of transits if there aren't too many ums and ers.(obvious really)
Had no problems with Luton,Brum,Brize,Cardiff.
Had a long 'standby' with Luton once,soon as they saw me turn as I approached their boundary,they called me up to come on through.

I take the opposite view to Airscrew,plan to get a transit (if this is the shortest route although fuel planning done for the longest route option) ,with skirting around as the alternate.
Zigzagging for your entire journey just to avoid CAS seems a bit expensive to me.
My old CFI always encouraged transits through ATZ's but used to drill it into me to never cross ILS's without talking to ATC.

MM

Not sure about the UK, but out here you're supposed (required) to request a clearance by 15 minutes from the airspace boundary, and if departing into a zone <15 minutes, co-ordinate the clearance on ground prior to departure. Seems reasonably sensible. Also, unless specifically within a zone and talking to an ATC unit, we use area frequencies, which 'belong' to a radar unit, but we're free to arrange mutual separation. That said, I know the airspace, particularly in the southern UK is a lot more congested and complex (uk exile).

To answer TangoZulu on gliders and transponders: it's not so much weight as electrical power - we're reliant upon batteries. We also don't have heating (cold batteries struggle), and often airborne for 5+ hours. Battery capacity is a significant issue. There are also other technical problems with carbon composite structures and such to work out.

Mark, you might find the UK airspace a bit more tighly packed ;) You could be crossing two different piece of controlled airspace, with an ATZ sitting in class G between, within 15 minutes ;)

Understood - I flew gliders UKside before picking up spam cans out here; so familiar with the airspace, but mainly from an avoiding it point of view! I still keep the southern uk chart handy to scare the be***sus out of flying mates :)

Expectation here is if you're talking to an ATS unit, they will hand you off / co-ordinate further clearance to neighbouring units rather than just leaving you at their boundary.

Interested in this thread as I will be back one day..

London City control zone transits
 

Just wondering if anyone had any comments about London City control zone transits?

As the airport gets busier and busier it is becoming increasingly difficult for ATC to integrate VFR transits using the "normal" routing up and down the Lea Valley without delaying someone or indeed without having a TCAS RA. (I do understand that some peoples reasoning for using this route is the scenery but there may be some more expeditious routes available...)

I'm interested to hear from anyone who has transitted north-south, or vice versa, who has any ideas about other possible routings through the zone....

How would a cross direct through the overhead suit you, at say 2000ft? Would it help if some VRPs were established? (I'm thinking maybe Thames Barrier or the Woolwich Ferry to the south, Beckton Alp - a disused ski slope - to the north).

Would you still be able to "alight clear" in case of engine failure??

Thanks

As a regular user of the Lea Valley in the past but now only in the twin I have never found a clearance a problem.

You are correct about the land clear issue - there has been a reasonable amount of comment about whether the Lea Valley provides sufficient land clear options and the suggestion that the CAA do not consider it does. However, I have yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted.

My own opinion is that the reservoirs for almost the entire route provide a very good option (if you had to use them) but equally I have decided not to risk the wrath of the CAA for the sake of the small amount of time saved by going up the valley.

Thanks Fuji

I'm a student at Derby and even I can get EM transits provided:

1. You know what you want, plan ahead and ask in good time

2. Your RT is clear and unambiguous

First time crossing the ILS and being asked to orbit to give way to an Easyjet flight on final was interesting...

Very helpful of them to paint the planes orange I say...

And good confidence building stuff to then carry on with the transit and observe said EJ flight below and to my left on the final part of his approach, flare and touch down.

Good egg

I am sorry, I didnt read your post properly.

I assume you may be involved with AT?

Your suggestion of a crossing via the overhead is a good one, as is some VRPs.

Well, my 0.02p...

Every time I've asked for a transit from Stansted/Southampton I've gotten it!

Although the caveat is that I've only ever asked twice from either (still 100%!) :}.

In every case, my requested routing was directly across the runway (i.e. not flying into the final approach track, but rather crossing the runway at 90 deg straight through).

Standard Noise - always found Bristol very helpful & accomodating, many thanks.

Don't you love the USA. You only need to make two way contact to penetrate class D. No formal clearance required.
DO.

I make sightseeing flights in the City zone in a twin, usually north to south and back at 2000 ft on the west side of the zone (close to London Bridge). Whenever possible I time the flights for Sat pm or Sun am, when City is closed and integration shouldn't be a problem. I've always had my requests granted. Thank you.

However, I'd be interested to know what the likelihood of such transits are these days when City is open, and if it makes a difference whether you're on 09 or 27.

The US equivalent of City zone transits is flying over DC. I did that once before 9/11, and even then it was class B. These days I'm given to understand that it's got just a little more complicated... ;)

In practice, does that difference really matter? ATC can still tell you to remain outside the zone and then you're just as screwed as elsewhere. (I mean you have to invoke your plan B just as elsewhere.)

Oh, and all this didn't prevent an aircraft from flying straight through the upwind track at KISM, at approximately 700 feet, while I was climbing out, at approximately 700 feet, for one of my first solo x-country flights. The distance, as I can remember, was something like 10-20 meters horizontal and maybe five vertical. I was so stunned I didn't even report it.

I've had several transits across London City in a single, although it's a couple of years since I last tried.
The views are stunning, especially in winter with early morning mist allowing only the tops of buildings to be seen!

Interesting thread, well done to dublinpilot for starting!

In 16 years as a GA aviator, I have never, ever been refused a transit anywhere, and this includes:

Brize (ca. 50 times)
Liverpool (ca. 20, although once when my xpdr was u/s and they were SSR only it required quite some negotiation, which I did to keep my 100% record!)
East Mids (6)
Stansted (6)
Lyneham (4)
Solent (2)
Manchester (2)
Newcastle (1)
Teeside (or whatever the hell they're called nowadays) (1)
Heathrow (1)

Indeed, I transited Stansted twice on Tuesday evening when the R/T loading was very heavy indeed.

Maybe I am just lucky, however I do have a specific plan to get the clearance I want:

- always make the initial call e.g. "Essex G-ABCD for transit"
- keep R/T punchy like theirs: clear, concise, highest word rate possible without sacrificing audibility; this gives ATC the "warm feeling" that you and them are on the same page
- as someone else has said, think intelligently how their airspace works and make sure your routing is likely to fit in
- try to "suggest" the clearance to them in your request, again to give them the warm feeling that you know what day of the week it is, and you're not going to cause them problems

Let's be honest, some (most?) GA R/T is very, very slow, inaccurate and repetitive and I am frankly not surprised that many clearances are denied. Think of it legalistically and in "us and them" terms and be denied; think of it as negotiating with another human being to achieve each other's objectives, and I believe you will be surprised how often the doors are opened!

I've noted (as a Norwegian atco) that quite a few Britons flyging abroad in singles have a fairly poor RT standard. Most are very good, but some are really bad. I actually expected more given the fact that you are lucky enough to have your first language as the "international aviation standard" (Forgetting the "french is allso a ICAO language" debate for one minute)

Some of the Germans I work may barely manage the ICAO level 4 test, but the R/T is good, clear and concise. :8


...crawling back under my rock.....

M609 you are absolutely right, so no need to crawl under any rocks!

I actually believe that having English as a first language can be a disadvantage for good R/T, as it requires a conscious effort to be structured and leaves open the possibility of lapsing into telling one's life story over the airwaves. Where English is a second langauge, there is more tendency to stick to the standard that has been learned.

Does anyone else agree (or otherwise) with this observation/reasoning?

Luton and Stansted zone transit
 

Hi everyone!

Not sure whether reviving this thread in such a way I will get my post noticed but here goes. I am a PPL based near the Stansted zone and I'm after some suggestions (ideally from relevant ATC unit if you guys read this thread?) as to the VFR routes through the Stansted and Luton CTRs which are easiest to handle for the controllers and maximise the chance of me getting the clearance. My initial guess would be to cross at a right angle to the extended rwy centreline, any other suggestions for me to take into account? Goes without saying that I read the thread, will call as early before the zone boundary as possible, have a plan B, think before I transmit etc. etc. Before anyone asks, I am not trying to save 5 minutes of flying time (which I may not) but am after the extraordinary views and a sense of achievement after the successful transit :)

So, any suggestions gratefully received!

Thanks,



H88

Is there any big UK airports with a "Special Flight Rules" transition like Los Angeles International has, which basically involves a common squawk code and if i remember rightly it was 4500 ft southbound and 5500 northbound with a common traffic announce frequency with no controllers involved, it worked very efficiently and what a view crossing right over the the guts of LAX in class B. I even saw Air Force one parked up waiting for clinton