Light aircraft "could be bombs"
 

Thanks BBC for trying to sensationalise :mad::mad::mad: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7469619.stm

So can my car, or my bag, or anything else!!!!

My mate who owns a WW2 Zero is sweating a bit now I tell you! :D

Planes are too complicated
 

Much, much easier to buy a junker car for cash or just nick one.

Fill the boot with that well advertised spectre, "liquid explosives" (if anybody can get a practical recipe) or whatever is going boom in Iraqi marketplaces.

New legislation on the way?
 

I can see the next piece of legislation now!

"Due to the possible threat of light aircraft being used by terrorists, all GA aircraft will now be grounded indefinitely and private pilots detained for up to 42 days without charge!"

what is to stop someone getting a PA28 filling it with explosives and flying it in to a building or aircraft on the ground at a major airport? I can think of at least twenty airfields within 15 minutes of every major airfield in the UK....

please dont say that, you will only give the powers that be ideas to 'deter it'!

que justfication for OTT security at places such as southampton for GA :mad: :ugh:

The MTOW :)

Is this a wind-up?

Unfortunately this is the kind of warped suspect-everyone-and-everything thinking that I have come to know and expect from this warped country.

Being vigilant is one thing and is to be commended, being hysterically & neurotically fearful is another. There is a line, and this crosses it by far.

No more. Please!

Smithy

1 PA28 = Maybe 1000lbs HE top wack, requires loading generally in a public reasonably defined area, needs specialist skill to fly, doesn't have the momentum to puncture into the structural components of a building

1 transit van = probably 4000lbs HE. Can be rented anywhere, parked anywhere, be driven by anyone.

1 44 Tonne Lorry = 80,000 lb HE (and still not overloaded), can be loaded at any farm/lockup/back alley, Can be rented or hijacked, requires limited skill beyond driving a car to conduct basic operations. Can easily go inside/underneath buildings, bridges, tunnels to cause massive damage to kafir.

Lord C's definition of "light aircraft" is somewhat different from a PA28?

All because of that Glasgow Airport attack a while ago...

What people don't know is, that was Richard Hammond late for his check in !!!

Do you know, when Alex Carlile was MP for Montgomeryshire I knew him and he was a very big supporter of the development of Welshpool Airfield.

Since he quit being an MP and took on his various jobs (for the Private Eye readers amongst us his 20 minutes of wasted court time as a QC over the nutritional value of what a prisoner had been fed during the court lunch break was enlightening....) for this appaling, shambolic Government he appears to have become an aviation-hating, common sense removed pariah.

It's such a shame as he was totally for everything GA stood for, taking lots of flights in everything going to get an understanding of how Welshpool Airport would help the local community and now he's producing this sort of tosh.

It's costing more and more to enjoy a hobby which was once revered (well, sort of!) or at least respected - what next? Security sweeps of a Cherokee and CRB checks to go with your medical or licence issue....?!

Someone please tell me what's going wrong in this bloody country...?

This is where the big disconnect comes in understanding the true threat. Pilots nearly universally laugh at the idea of using light airplanes for a terrorist action. A light airplane has little chance of doing much damage, most say. However, those who believe this really do miss the big picture.

A light airplane gets used for a terrorist function. A few people die. A little damage is done. Fair enough.

However...overnight your flight schools shut down, and don't reopen. (in the US, after 09/11, a third of the flight schools in the country went out of business). General aviation comes to a near standstill. You can't even visit your own airplane again without a pass, and often an escort. You're fingerprinted a dozen times, the subject of multiple security clearances, and when you do go fly, you're intercepted in your PA-28 by a fighter that is prepared to shoot you down. IFR flight plans required for everything. The costs go up. Screening is in effect at your local airport. Medical flights, freight flights, traffic reporting, you name it...all severely curtailed, delayed, stopped, cancelled...and suddenly you're in the same position as the US.

The amount of damage done in the US following 09/11 was enormous. Not from the damage to the world trade center, though that was tragic. The real damage was the fear, the terror, and the economic impact particularly to general aviation. You see two or three light airplanes in the UK used for such an activity and it won't matter if a single soul is hurt or killed, or if a single pound, euro, or dollar is lost. The psychological damage, the publicity, the outcry will be enough that whatever limited flying you get to do now will be gone and probably won't be back.

The real threat is what comes afterward. For that reason alone, it's something that every single pilot should take very seriously. Very, very seriously. Act and watch accordingly, because it only takes once.

Many think in terms of the damage caused by localised targeted delivery. Light aircraft have very limited capability in this regard. The concern arises from the use of light aircraft for more widely targeted delivery.

However, it is vital we balance the right to our freedom as pilots with the risks. Unfortunately the agenda is not as clear cut as you would wish to believe.

Never the less vigiliance is vital and in that respect we all have our part to play.

The press on the other hand would far rather run with an ill thought out report which demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the risks involved and the reasons for a degree of concern.

For that we should perhaps be grateful.

So there's no intelligence to suggest this would ever happen. Why not act on the intelligence saying things that are likely to happen, and worry about them?

Sure. The Media.

Probably anticipating the growing market in VLJ's and how on earth, banal ACPO inspired programmes such as "Street Wars" are going to script the chase scene.

"London Control - right, right, right - southbound L980 towards Avant. Cessna Mustang - G-BOLX - failing to stop. Request all units deploy with aerial stinger at Kathy"

I would leave the clause "there is said to be no intelligence" - with a plurality of meanings.

With sincere apologies - if any good soul has registered his a/c with the above reg- my will to check SRG's G-INFO has expired

a) there aren't enough plod/special branch/customs to be present at all the airstrips in the country

b) there aren't enough military a/c to be able to intercept all possible threats by air

Solution - ground GA

Nice one Lord Carlisle - NIMBY God. You are a gift to those who wish to shut down aviation, and, as a supposed Liberal, you should be ashamed of yourself.

And if Mr Opik is listening in, perhaps he could earn his salary and explain to Lord Carlisle he is talking b*ll*cks.

I sincerely hope that AOPA, the GA Alliance and all our representative bodies - including the CAA - will ensure that this half-*rsed piece of rubbish is filed where it deserves to be.

Some of you need to learn that the press and the popular media has never been about reporting the news. It's about selling advertising. Facts and accuracy are not the goal; attracting viewers and readers that will be exposed to advertising is the goal.

The news isn't the news. It's the entertainment business. Keep that in mind.

Just for the record, Mr Opik (a PPL/IR besides being a bit of a clown) followed Lord Carlile as MP for Montgomeryshire; so one would hope they have a good working relationship, both being Lib Dems.

As well as flying privately, I working in Business Aviation. I've yet to see Alex Carlile at Farnborough seeing for himself the steps and lengths we go to to ensure that we have the strictest possible security we can. It's not simply a case of a few yellow jackets on the gate, it's a series of steps involving everyone in the organisation, we have direct contact with all sorts of Government agencies for any kind of concerns and I'm, frankly, worried that the Government's Terrorism Tzar doesn't seem to know this.

Just from the fact he's written means he doesn't know it....

It gets worse:ugh:

M'lord Carlisle (not hereditary I note) has also echoed plods request for a 3000 strong unified Border Police Service.

I for one will be visiting Transair and purchasing several white shirts avec epaulettes. Then squeezing 2 x Four Gold Bars onto each sloping shoulder.

That should pull a bit of rank when the Rankers call:ok:

Sir George Cayley

The Telegraph is at it as well:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2182...ser-warns.html

I could not agree more! People like Lord Carlile have got no idea what they are talking about.

The thought of having to go through the same banal security checks at my local "airfield" when I go and do a bit of private flying as one is subjected to at major "airports" beggars belief.

The funny thing is, the chap who got nicked for that said in his court testimony that yes, he and his mates were trying to kick up a bit of dust at the airport terminal with some home-baked incendiary devices, but that was it. Your friendly government provided all the rest of the entertainment:

From AFP
Why is it that I find it a lot easier to believe this guy than to believe the government? Mind you, I'm old enough to remember when after an IRA bombing the police used to grab any poor Irish-accented bastard and accuse them of all sorts. Got away with that for years, didn't they.

:ugh: These overstated fears mean the terrorist is winning.

The average private car can carry more than most light aircraft. Perhaps we should have checks on every car driver every time someone wants to drive one?

Its nothing new and the report does state..

But no doubt this detracts from a good story about light aircraft raining down from the sky like Tora Tora Tora so the BBC neglected to include it in their report.

As stated, there is absolutely no intelligence that demonstrates attack using light aircraft, christ they could disguise themselves as a BBC news crew and infiltrate the Commons with news cameras packed full of explosives!!:ugh: But thats just sensationalist :)

J.

Shame there does not appear to be a 'comments' section on the bottom of the BBC page.

away from the pilot!

Dont forget the spectre of a dozen free fall suicide bombers lobbing out of a knackered caravan......or rocket propelled taliban roman candles underslung from footlaunched fan motors....
All ppls to become trained firearms officers as part of the course. problem solved.
Umm.....the last exploding outrage in the USA was ...I believe....an exploding bicycle in Times square?? Maybe I'm mistaken on this, but a fleet of exploding bicyles..especially if fitted with the panniers commonly available without any form of licence....would cause devastation in the average supermarket car park.
If you just want to have a go at folk, you could just nick a van and mow down a load of pedestrians on the pavement. Pick your route and plan the outrage carefully......just a sec.....isnt that what happens at the moment anyway?
Even the USA is not this paranoid.

Why would osama waste his time with light aircraft - Heck, take 20 litres of petrol to the local night club and burn, baby burn... :hmm:

Thread creep.
 

G-BOLX used to be on a C172 based at Headcorn. It was well scruffy when I used to hire it 15-odd years ago. It was a sister ship to 'LI and 'LY, which are both still around. I understand that it has now been re-registered as G-EOLX - maybe the paint on the reg had faded and it was cheaper to re-register than re-paint!

This was one of the registrations that slipped through the CAA's 'decency Police' whereby you're not allowed to have obscene or even mildly rude registrations. They should review some of the helicopter reggies I see about (G-PIMP, G-FCKD etc etc)

TheOddOne

IMHO these funny registrations become a bit of a liability, after a few years.

Also I note most of them are very hard to pronounce. I would always go for a custom reg (the cost is peanuts) and my choice would always be picked to roll off the tongue very quickly, without ambiguity. Unfortunately a lot of other people play that game too so the obvious ones have been taken :)

I saw G-BOLX a few years ago.

It's a lot easier to get these (ones which are 'suggestive' to an English speaker) in non English speaking countries.

That doesn't carry nearly the effect as using an airplane. The goal isn't to kill or to maim, or even to damage property. Terrorism. That's what it's about.

You haven't seen it happen yet, but you probably will. As I said before, following 09/11, a third of the flight schools in the US went out of business. I was personally assigned to retrieve a heart the evening of the day it happened, and I had to watch the individual who was to receive the heart on the television, crying and telling the public and the media that he would die because the aircraft that was to go get his replacement heart wasn't allowed to fly. That was me, the one who was supposed to make that flight. One of thousands upon thousands of flights that didn't go.

For years after that time, I had to put locks around my propeller every time I walked away from the airplane, keep at least three disabling devices attached at all times, add devices to prevent the aircraft from flying, received frequent visits from the federal bureau of investigation, and had to obtain additional clearances and undergo additional scrutiny. Those of you who come from overseas to do training have some inkling of the hoops through which you must jump...all because a few individuals obtained a few airplanes and did damage.

Today, it doesn't matter how much damage is done. I'm a long time ag pilot, and fire pilot, among other things. In the years following 09/11, the public hysteria over "white dust" being dispensed by ag airplanes lead to multiple groundings of ag aircraft, prompting some to sell their operations and others to go out of business. We were prevented from flying on fires at times, as a result. No ag airplane was ever used for a terrorist act, but the effects remained. Had an ag airplane ever been used, one could safely discount agricultural aviation in the US. Over. Kaput. Done.

Same for several light airplanes being used. The amount of physical damage to be done? Minimal. The amount of psychological and economic damage? Inestimable. Massive, and potentially without end. Blow up a night club...that happens from time to time. Nobody closes all the night clubs. Blow up a truck, nobody is going to park all the trucks. Blow up a ship, there are plenty more ships. Blow up another airplane, and much of the aviation industry may not be able to recover from the fallout. In the general aviation sector this is especially true.

How many of you are instrument rated? Most private pilots are not. Never the less, the matter of requiring all light airplanes to fly under IFR was seriously debated following 09/11. Much as I love VFR flight and personal freedom, I'm not entirely against that, then or now. It's not entirely workable, but the concept was certainly discussed that anything deviating from an IFR plan would be considered a threat, and has been on many occasions in the US in some areas.

Even today, a light airplane violating the airspace around the nation's capitol in Washington DC is enough to stop the country's political machine, evacuate congress, and send enough firepower to vaporize a large city to intercept it. That's the kind of response even a light airplane gets today. So, you ask, why would a terrorist consider using a light airplane? Do you really have to ask that?

When Mattias Rust landed at the Kremlin with his Cessna 172, nobody in the Politburo was laughing. Nobody thought a Cessna 150 could have landed (crashed) on the Whitehouse lawn. But it happened. You might not take it seriously, but rest assured that the public does, and the body politic does, too. So long as that's the fuel of the legislation that decides your privilege to fly, you should take it just as seriously.

The lost life and damage done is irrelevant and really quite meaningless. The loss of freedom and the public panic that follows in it's wake is what a terrorist act is all about. Take it seriously.

Whilst we all agree that 9/11 was a terrible event in history and not one easily forgotten, it's also worth remembering that In the UK until recently we had been living for about 40 years with a much more serious and lets face it far more successful terrorist orgonisation accross the Irish sea, one which incidentaly the Americans sympathised with and helped 'fund raise!'

Edited to add: I'm not disputing what your are saying Sns3guppy, just that we Brits really dont need much education with regards dealing with terrorism!:)

If anything legislative as to happen in light of this report, it would be another nail in the coffin of democracy and freedom. The irony of all of this is that the democratic culture that we celebrate is not being eroded by terrorism but by the police state eager to justify its existence and purpose fuelled by the ignorance and assumed self importance of the media.

In reality the threat from the IRA was far more intrusive to our everyday lives yet life went on and survived. Sure there were legislative measures brought in to deal with it but none as Orwellian as we see now. When they wanted to hurt the British public, they knew how to do it without raising suspicion.

I also wonder whether the same senior police officers also want to see UAV's used for policing purposes and want to remove some of the operating constraints such as GA. They are of course all stakeholders in the Mode S debate and its not difficult to see why.

Whilst I don't enjoy watching politicians grandstanding for attention, I might support the wider point that David Davies is trying to make in his by-election. Enough is enough.

:mad:

I suppose light aircraft could be used as flying bombs; I suspect the likelihood is right up there with senior policemen being recruited as suicide bombers. Possible, just not terribly likely....:confused:

Well, given that plod couldn't stop a policeman out on bail for murder of his wife, then going out and killing the witness (his mother-in-law) and himself.....

Life is a risk, but our leaders are totally risk-averse. They cannot conceive that things can go wrong.

Let's take an example - the British Grand Prix is stopped because a press helicopter crashes on the grandstand at Club corner. A tragic accident

Or a helicopter flies into the grandstand at Club corner - a terrorist outrage

Same loss of life, but either could happen.

It's also pretty damn difficult to get your hands on a light jet, and then load it up with a huge bomb without it being noticed.

One can make the same argument for chartered transport jets. You can lease a 747 if you want to. That is a much bigger security issue. But the 9/11 lot didn't do that; they went to the much greater trouble of hijacking them.

Ground all transport jets?

Elsewhere, it has been suggested that the "light jet" danger which is all over today's front pages is coming out of the airlines who are getting a lot of competition from light jets. You can get say 5 company execs 1000nm for slightly over £10k (return) which compares awfully well with flying them conventionally, and that is before one costs in the huge hassle of using an airline. The light jet business must be very seriously hurting the 1st class ticket business.

Both sides of a coin

1 - skywalker - In terms of mainland casualties inflicted, long term disruption, or 'terrorising effect' the IRA was not in the same league as the 9/11 attacks. For much of the time they sought to create low grade annoyance to inspire political change. 9/11 was much more about maximising body count. Furthermore, with a deliverable political objective you could also see a way out of the Irish mess. Much less clear in the current situation.

2 - SNS3 - While the devastation to GA in the aftermath of 9/11 was clear, the US authorities have generally adjusted their position to a more sensible one. When an Islamo nutter used a training aircraft in a suicide attack in Florida, (which demonstrated how poor light GA is at this kind of attack) there doesn't seem to have been any significant change in policy. We need to worry about things that really could deliver another 'spectacular' not about hypothetical risks that some media intern dreams up.