I've been on the "receiving end" of several formations of GA aircraft on long-ish trips as a controller. When the pilots involved are 'professional' it's great. When it's clear that the parties involved are a bit uncertain about what to do, it's not much fun. (4 Germans doing a sudden "fan" split in between other tfc on downwind........ :uhoh: )

Many groups fly past here each summer, and the ones that I find most "pro", fly as singletons, and are obviously following a game plan with time and speed spacing.
(Long trail with 5-10 miles gaps, same speed)


As a PPL I would never attempt it without instruction from someone experienced in formation flying.

Our military customers never take formation flying lightly, for obvious reasons.
Would a MIL pilot accept to fly any kind of formation with a pilot who's skill level in formation flying is unknown? :)

amateur formation
 

I had an opportunity to fly my aircraft in a 4 ship formation at Sun 'n Fun 8 years ago for a photo shoot.

I had around 600h TT at the time and was very familiar with the aircraft but deferred the formation part of the flight to a very experienced ex-military training pilot who kept a very tight formation far better and more safely than I could ever have hoped to. The experience was one of the most exhilarating I have ever had in an aircraft and I can really see the thrill of it as well as the practical advantages it offers.

A few months before this I had attempted to formate with a far slower aircraft being flown by 2 good friends (one of whom was an airline pilot) up in Canada. It very nearly ended in disaster - I came very close to hitting them and killing all of us as I attempted to formate on them but bowled past them trying to slow down (at double their cruise speed). Things can happen very fast when you are close together, so unless you are trained I would recommend a healthy degree of separation.

IMHO It is a very good way to kill yourself and take a friend with you unless you have been properly trained.

SB

Read the Pprune for hysteria!

OK just me over-reaction. If people posting here cannot maintain their position at something more than 100m and less than a mile I hope they spend most of their time at the keyboard rather than in the air!

My friends and I have done a fair amount of flying in company. With simple agreed instructions and a bit of discipline it is straight forward, fun and makes for an interesting trip. As for dooming people to collision and death - get a life!

The important things are to have that sset of rules arranged, to ensure that if people don't or can't follow them there is an agreed fallback and its pretty easy.

We started doing it beause only 1 of the 3 aircraft had a transponder and with the welcoming attitude of many 'international' UK airports getting a transit was tricky. Adding the magic 'formation' to the call usually got us through! We still do it from time to time although now there are lots of (becoming obselete) transponders between us.

Stick to a spot - which the lead aricraft can see - typically 4.30 at 500m plus. Follow the leader! Especially on the radio! After the initial joining call split up and adopt line astern at suitable spacing - from there on its one your own - individual coms with the tower. Joining up - agree where and what height, breaking up agree either a frequency to call on where the others will know what your intentions are or another method.....

"get a life!"

I have one thanks, I thoroughly enjoy being alive and want to keep things that way.;)

At 500m separation you are practically counties apart, aircraft get closer than that in the circuit!

SB

Formation flying as though you're in a Vic over the Channel in the Battle of Britain or on a magazine photoshoot has got to a dangerous pastime unless you're well trained.

IMHO flying withing 25 metres of another aircraft is undesirable because of the small margin for errror. Say one guy avoids traffic by turning left. The other chap is checking his chart or avoiding a large seagull. Oops, you're dead...

But I don't see the problem with flying in company with set parameters eg two pilots in each aircraft so that the handling pilot can concentrate on handling while the other pilot does the nav/radio. It happens in Club Fly-outs all the time and is probably safer than having 10 aircraft converging on the same destination without any coordination!

And compared with flying the circuit at most training airfields where you regularly have 3 students or low hour PPL aircraft at various speeds and altitudes on each leg, not to mention the fancy-dan CPL students joining left base in twins, it's a doddle. :rolleyes:

Yes, I agree.

I think there is a huge difference between formation flying and flying in company.

The title of the thread is deceptive and there are a lot of comments about formation flying .. .. ..

so I think it is worth repeating formation flying requires training,

but flying in well spaced company if everyone is properly briefed is a different matter.

Is "in company" actually a properly recognised ATC term? What are the other proper ATC calls to make when joining up, when communicating to ATC that you're a formation (just "<callsign> formation" or something else?), and what are the proper calls to split apart?

I don't have CAP416 to hand here. Feel free to refer me there if there's proper information in there.

I don't hink 'in company' is in the book. But a little common sense on the radio usually works. And most ATC seem to prefer talking to a 'combine' - to use the RAF word - which we never did, than in talking to 3 aircraft any number of which might squawk.

Then use your normal calls simply adding in that you are splitting apart. Or that one of you has gone AWOL and is no longer party of the formation. As the radio man you simply have to use the normal calls with the additional information that either ATC or the otehr aircraft in the formation need.

"G-ZZZZ approaching blah for joining information. the other aircraft will leave formation and contact you direct for landing clearance" as an example when you are splitting up on arrival.

One of the problems that i've encountered in flying cross country in loose formation is the radio.
Unless you both have two radios, then one aircraft will be doing the communication for "a flight of two? aircraft". They will have their radio tuned to the local ATC frequency and this cannot be used for communication between the aircraft.

The lead aircraft will be doing all the navigation and therefore may not always have sight of the second one. It is easy to lose sight of the second aircraft unless they are very good at holding position and height.

If the second aircraft gets the frequency wrong when changing from one controller to another, then he will have lost communication, so I have found it useful to have a "go to" frequency in the event you get separated.

The other 'issue' is where the second aircraft needs to get the attention of the first aircraft. If they both only have one radio this is difficult unless they talk on the ATC frequency (vey much frowned upon) or pull ahead to attract attention (can be dangerous).

So with two radios it is easier. With only one then you do have to agree up front a way to attract attention or to cope with being on different frequencies.

I assume that you have also done some formation work, otherwise keep at least a 25-50 mtr distance.

If you can arrange the necessary logistics (sole access to a Yak-52 or an Extra 300 for a week, budget for 15 hours+ flying plus transits; ideally you should be comfortable with flying basic aerobatic figures in a safe, smooth and predictable fashion on type) then the North Weald formation week, run twice yearly, is a fairly unique institution, taught by serving and retired military instructors, is the best way for a PPL - probably anywhere, not just the UK - to get to grips with the subject.

I'd argue there are two distinct, but related, aspects of the training.

First is the art of flying close formation - for the formation members, station keeping, sequencing of formation changes, safety protocols for joining and departing formation. At first this is enough to fry your brain - you've spent your entire PPL career up until this point trying to stay as far away as possible from anything else in the sky, and then to be flying a few metres from someone's wingtip, but with expert tuition becomes, if not second nature, another skill to be practised. As a formation lead, the responsibility of having another anything from 1 to 8 aircraft depending on your ability to fly smoothly and predictably, and be mentally far enough ahead of not just your own aircraft, but the entire formation, is actually a far more demanding task.

Second, and probably more relevant to the OP and the concept of flying 'in company' is adopting a rigourous and standardised approach to the pre-flight planning, briefing, RT during the sortie, and finally post-sortie debrief. The training emphasises planning every aspect, from start-up, taxi, take-off, through to rejoin, landing, shut-down - and plan for failures or emergencies at each stage. Assume that at any stage comms and visual contact could be lost - ZA mentions a 'go to' frequency, known otherwise as a collector; 'safe haven' altitude spacings for each formation member in the event of visual contact loss. Notams, diversions, fuel planning, weather.....plan and brief as much as you can. The more preparation, the less RT within the formation is required, to the point of almost trappist minimalism. The post-flight debrief is as important as the pre-flight one, because something will *always* end up not going to plan - if not for you, then for someone else in the formation - you only learn from your mistakes if you learn you've made a mistake.

The course *is* bloody hard work, particularly for the first few days. Its also some of the best fun flying you can have as a PPL, bar none. I've been lucky enough to attend three courses (and would be there twice a year every year without fail apart from the inconvenient fact that my fellow Yak group members are also champing at the bit to attend).

If you have access to the relevant hardware, and want to learn about formation from the professionals, then you should seriously consider the NW course - but failing that, get some training from one of the other organisations. Self-taught formation is a formula for the same pseudo-Darwinian effect as self-taught aerobatics - not survival of the fittest or smartest, just survival down to sheer luck.

Golly what a lot of scaremongering!

Flying in 'loose formation' with a friend is some of the best fun you can have with a PPL.

The advice given by Fuji on this thread is pretty much spot on in my view.

The key things to remember in addition are:-

1) Don't get too close. Sounds really obvious but it gets tempting to try to get 'just a little bit tighter' onto your friend. Don't! It's not big or clever. Just dangerous!

2) Don't show off / dick about.

3) Don't contemplate doing this with anyone who you think might possibly try showing off / dicking about.

Assuming two sensible, moderately competent PPL holders doing this in good weather, not getting too close to each other and having followed Fuji's sensible advice - this really isn't dangerous.

My goodness - why is it that there seems to be a complete inability to distinguish between flying in company and in formation.

I get the distinct impression that there are more than the usual number of people on this thread who have very little idea about either, never mind actually having done either.

It is really difficult to debate something like this if you havent done it.

I think you might what to introduce your comments by telling us whether you have flown in company and / or in formation. Tell us a bit about what training you had (if any) and what you took away with you from the experience. We might all have something to learn.

Firstly, we were talking about flying in company only. You can leave formation flying out of this debate!

Secondly, the fact that something is inherently unsafe is not a good reason for prohibiting it. :ugh:

One of the biggest problems with this country of ours is the Nanny State. Every few days there's a new government or caa regulation which regulates what was once left to an individual's judgment. We see it everyday; people who haven't had to think for themselves because they are duped into a false sense of security by adherence to rules. It seems that these rules are simply designed to protect idiots to the detriment of normal people. Flying in company is not against the rules, nor is it dangerous as long as it's done by reasonably competent people.

IMHO driving down the M25 at 80 MPH with a hundred other motorists, some of whom passed their tests decades ago, some of whom passed their tests but are awful drivers, and others for whom 'a test' was 200 Marlboro lights under the pub table. That, my friends, is far more dangerous, requires far more concentration and luck, than a few competent PPL holders flying within visual range of each other AND it's seen as acceptable. Let's get this in perspective!

I agree with Julian, what a load of scaremongering. It's common on this site - granted - but it's frustrating nevertheless. :suspect: The same people who make these comments probably drive at 40 MPH in the countryside - because it's safer - but then bumble on into a built-up area and past a school at the same speed...As long as people use their brains and training, surely this is all an over-reaction.

Bring on the flak! :rolleyes:

IMHO - the difference has nothing to do with separation, but everything to do with training, preparation, and attitude. The military might typically punt around the place in a tactical formation spread over a couple of miles, but all of the things I've outlined above will still apply.

To return to the OPs topic - flying in company or loose formation to shepherd a less well equipped aircraft or less experienced crew somewhere - is not a good idea. I've been there, done it, and not in a hurry to go back. If you're not confident, or the kit not capable enough, to make the trip on your own, then come up with a different plan.

eHarding

Really? To me this suggests (since that is how you open your post) that these are the essential prerequisites for two friends who wish to fly their C152s in half mile company. I dont buy it.

I would be interested to know what was wrong with my preflight brief set out earlier. Simple, to the point and it works. More importantly it is not rocket science.

Ah yes, but given the scenario above and discussed earlier of our two friends, I would be really interested to know the essential elements of start up, taxi, take off, rejoin, landing and shut down that are essential to two friends who agree to meet up over a known land mark, follow each other to a destination and break company well before joing the curcuit?


Pure and simple I just dont think this stacks up - unless I have missed the point.

All very valid if we were talking about formation flying but I think we moved away from that many posts ago.

Fuji.

Extra points if you can work the quote attribution magic.

Well, lets return to the detail of the OP's query....

I apologise for my less than crystal-clear style, but the point I was making was to always plan for the worst outcome as well as the best when dealing with more than one aircraft - and that close formation training provides an excellent grounding for this. As for the OP - he refers to aerobatic pilots - being a competition aerobatic pilot myself, I can readily confirm that I would sooner stick my end in a coffee grinder than attempt another formation/in company transit with aerobatic pilots without formal formation training - generally superb at the stick and rudder part, generally a disaster in the teamwork department :E

Well the original question was

Which is what has made a lot of us on here err on the side of caution.

eHarding and 3Ys

Yes, all gracefully accepted.

All of your comments are clearly appropriate to formation flying.

My point was that the debate seemed to have moved on to flying in well spaced company. I think it should be clear which we are talking about (and I do agree the poster started out by talking about "formation")

Given what the poster appears to be seaking to achieve and given the mix of aircraft I would have thought well spaced formation would be far better suited to his purpose anyway - leaving aside whether or not the nav equipment on one or other of the aircraft is up to the job.

Just make your bleedin' mind up, will you? :}

Well spaced company it is, and I meant to say. :}