I enjoyed gliding, however getting to bronze standard was hard, in terms of time and perseverence.

Only downside which I didnt like was the waiting around for a 30 min flight etc, Rain is a problem for gliders too, so weather is a little bit more or a problem than powered.

I can understand the membership and launch fees. But what is the (ridiculously low) soaring fee used for? I can't see it used as a deterrent not to stay up there too long, but I also can't see a revenue stream of, let's say, 10 quid over a whole weekend per airframe, being used towards anything like 100-hour/annual checks, depreciation, maintenance, hangarage and so forth.

Just curiosity from a powered pilot. Or you can even call it envy.

Those seem like good prices. Soaring at my club is pretty cheap, IMHO, about $240/year dues. Each tow costs $17 to 2K', and the rental fees go from $6 to $12 per hour.
Most annuals cost about $100 on a glider. It helps that there is no engine. And, in a club there are often volunteer IA's to do the work and inspections.
Sometimes a club will have a commercial ride operation that helps to subsidize the maintenance. Our operation also subsidizes a junior program quite extensively, until they solo each flight costs them $3. A good investment in the youth both for the good of society, and the long term health of the club. We have former junior members ranging in age from 19 to 80.
A commercial glider operation is much more expensive. However, it can be a much more efficient way to knock out the ratings. Depends if you are in a hurry or not. Helps to take advantage of the social aspects of the club and make friends with the instructors.
-- IFMU

Gliding
 

Sheesh

I notice you're based in London, and would point out that some the rates being quoted by our Murcan friends are a little on the light side. Expect to pay somewhere between £200 and £400 for membership of UK clubs, £5-£8 for a winch launch, 25p-50p per minute glider rental, and typically £25 to 2000 feet aerotow. You'll find the big clubs near London are at the top end of cost scale, but do have good fleets and facilities.

I struggled in the early stages of my gliding career - never a natural, but now enjoy the luxury of having my own glider and being able to b*gger off for 3-6 hours at a time on the good cross country days, family permitting. Long cross-countries are completely absorbing and a great challenge. Check out the clickable map at gliding.co.uk for directions to websites of most UK clubs.

I've just never been able to understand why the gliding fraternity usually requires an instructor rating to fly passengers, so you have the odd situation where a 45 hour PPL can take pax whereas a 500 hour non-instructor in gliding cannot. I had to take a BGA Basic Instructor rating to be granted the privilege of flying my kids and friends, but worth the effort and expense, particularly as it ironed out 10 years' worth of ingrained bad habits from solo flying !

Regards

Pegpilot

Pegpilot: FYI, that is a club thing - a BI rating is not REQUIRED, the BGA requirements are 50hrs, and aproval of the CFI. Unfortunately it seems that getting the aproval of the CFI may require a BI rating in some cases :}

I've just never been able to understand why the gliding fraternity usually requires an instructor rating to fly passengers"
followed by...
"I had to take a BGA Basic Instructor rating to be granted the privilege of flying my kids and friends, but worth the effort and expense, particularly as it ironed out 10 years' worth of ingrained bad habits from solo flying ! "
'Nuff said ?
Don't know how it works in the Power World, but UK Gliding Instructors also go through continuity checks (three and five year cycles) as part of a review to ensure they're maintaining their instructional and flying skills. Additionally they must do a minimum 20 hrs and 30 launches in previous 12 months, of which 5 hrs or 25 launches should be instructing and 10 hrs or 50 launches should be solo. i.e. they're pretty current! Oh, the other reason why you need to be an instructor is because we don't do passenger carrying flights - all flights, when the second seat is occupied by a non-pilot, are considered to be of an instructional/training nature.

The PPL will teach you to get up round & down safely & to navigate through controlled airspace etc, with "sufficient" attention to emergency procedures ref engine failures etc.
Gliding will teach you to "fly" acurately / efficiently as possible, your main comunication system is a lookout, you will always be aware of the next landing site in case the lift stops, your ability to "get somewhere" will depend on your skill, not a tank full of fuel.
When you then fly power all this will help considerably.
I was gliding 20 yrs ago & at that time started power, went solo after 3hrs. I then stopped, started again last year, took 14hrs to solo 60+ hrs to NPPL. I am now struggling to land a Chipmunk. If I had kept up the gliding I don't think I would have a problem.
So my advice FWIW, glide first, then power so at least when the fan stops you are well used to it & will not !!!! yourself at the silence, & you will be a better "pilot".

Actually, not quite correct. All *PAYING* passengers fit in that category. There is no such thing as a paying 'joyflight' in the UK. I believe that is simply because that would then be a commercial operation, and commercial licensing, airworthiness and certification would be required. By making it an instructional flight, that is sidestepped.

If I want to take my friend, family, girl I met in the pub, etc, along with me, and they don't pay it's not an instructional flight.

Incidentally, the same is true in the power world - if passengers pay anything above an equal share of the cost, it's for reward, and you need to have a commercial license etc.

Again, the *legal* requirement is 50hrs P1, plus CFI approval (according to a year and a bit old copy of the BGA Laws and Rules book. That's not so much more onerous than PPL requirements.

Clubs may choose to mandate BI for that approval - there may be many reasons; perhaps safety related, perhaps to ensure an adequate pool of BI's to fly trial instructional flights. :E There may also be insurance reasons (minimums) why you can't just take your mates up in a club 2 seater.

Where I (used to) fly in the UK did change that policy from more restrictive to the 50/approval regime.

Anyhow, gliding will give you an extra dimension to power flying, just one bit of advice earned from experience.. when doing PFL's don't tell your instructor his precious cessna glides 'like a homesick brick'.. he may be offended :rolleyes:

Mark1234,

Interesting information about taking passengers - does the CFI approval part apply only to club gliders, or does it also apply to privately owned gliders?

Thanks

SD

The general rule at gliding clubs is that you can't launch (club glider or your own glider) without the approval of the CFI, usually delegated to the instructor of the day. Thus what the rule is, and what gliders it applies to, depends on the CFI.

At my previous club the rule was that only instructors could fly with non-solo pilots, both in club aircraft and in their own aircraft. Some clubs will differentiate, so that who flies with you in your own two-seater (if current etc.) is up to you. Others will allows anyone who meets the BGA minima and the CFI's approval of their flying skills to take non-pilots in club gliders.

The problem the CFI has in allowing non-instructors to do this is in deciding which of the club pilots are capable of taking passengers safely, bearing in mind that the responsibility for flying safety at the club falls primarily on the CFI. The esaiest route is to limit this to instructors because they've all achieved an externally-assessed standard. Avoiding internal conflicts is important at a gliding club - if some members spend their time complaining about unfairness, there is a real danger of the club taking sides and falling apart!

For clarity amongst our non-gliding brothers, a very high percentage of privately owned gliders are single seaters. A very high percentage of the two seaters are owned by the gliding clubs.
The reasons tend to be
a) price of a 2 seater is higher than the equivalent performance single seater
b) insurance costs are close to double for 2 seaters because of the 2nd seat liability
b) rigging and derigging 2 seaters is much heavier than singles - club-owned aircraft are generally kept rigged in the hangar, private gliders are generally stored derigged in their trailers
So if you want to fly wife/girlfriend etc etc it usually implies using a club-owned glider and following club rules on who can or can't.
I agree entirely that doing a BGA basic instructor course does an awful lot of good for your flying and a Half Cat rating even more.
Our club uses the "instructors only" rule for club 2 seaters. There are a few vociferous non-instructors who consider this unfair but at least one of them I wouldn't trust with flying my mother in law.:uhoh:

If a non-instructor wanted to bring a 2 seater onto our site, he would need permission from the CFI. This would not be granted except to pilots of known ability.

Chris Reed and Sedbergh,

Thanks for the information - it seems so obvious and reasonable once you have explained it!

- nice to see a man who gets on with his MIL!

SD

This seems dismal. Is soaring really that hard, that only an instructor can give rides?

Here in the US, many of us earn the private rating in a Schweizer 2-33. Easy to fly glider, very strong, very forgiving, very safe. Both clubs I've been in have higher performance 2-place gliders, like a Grob 103, ASK21, even a duo discus. To fly the higher performance gliders, our club rules require a certain minimum level of experience, and a checkout from an instructor. The instructor does the duty of screening out the people not competent to fly the machines. Indeed, this job starts before the high performance checkout. After all, the instructors solo the students, recommend them for checkrides.

At my club we have a pool of commercial glider pilots for taking paid glider rides. Usually we don't waste instructors on this task, as instructors are harder to come by, and should be instructing. Some of our commercial pilots are teenagers. Darn good pilots too. Some of them are old guys with 1000's of hours, but no instructor rating. But boy can they fly.

The funny thing about an instructor rating is that it doesn't necessarily mean you are a good pilot. Most of them are very good. But I have seen a couple instructors with more money than skills, and the CFIG was just another trophy for them, and not a hard one to get if you already have a power CFI. One of these instructors went downwind in a 2-33 with a student. Did I mention 2-33's are strong, safe gliders? Even when putting them into the trees? Well, they are.

The instructor requirement for taking passengers makes no sense to me.

-- IFMU

IFMU,

It's quite different here in the UK as there are is no formal glider pilots licence. This means that gliding in this country for years has been self regulating, which has worked very well, but does leave a lot to the descretion of the club CFI. You don't need an instructor rating to take passengers, just 50 hrs solo and the CFI's approval. However, as somebody else stated, many CFI's use the instructor rating as a yard stick. This saves a lot of hassle in sorting the good from the bad as the CFI can simply say "At this club, only instructors can take up passengers".

Interestingly it was possible up until very recently (and I think it's only the mandatory insurance that stops this now), you could own a glider, keep it at your own home strip and fly it quite legally without a licence or a certificate of airworthyness! (take passengers too I presume?) It sounds crazy, but when I looked into it a few years ago this was the case. Of course you'd have the problems of launching, but if you had a mate with a suitable tug, then you were legal :D

Much has changed since I flew gliders, with EASA now taking over, and the BGA loosing it's self regulatory roll. I'm not sure what the rules are now, so don't assume what I've said still applies!!!

SS

So in the USA you have commercial glider pilots who are not instructors but it's "easy" to get a CFIG rating (certified flying instructor, glider ???) if you've got a power CFI (certified flying instructor???) rating?
Very strange. It ain't like that in the UK.
CFI in the UK means Chief Flying Instructor, and his word goes. No arguments. You've got to get past him before you go anywhere near an instructor course.

Sedbergh,
Let me try and translate from my local American dialect. "Easy" translates to no written exam required. Before you get to the easy step of adding on a glider commercial or instructor rating, you first have to get the power commercial or instructor rating. Which requires instruction, aeronautical experience, a signoff to take the written exam from an instructor, pass the exam, get an instructor recommendation for the checkride, and pass the checkride which consists of both an oral exam, where the examiner can ask you about anything and you demonstrate your academic knowledge, then the flight part of the checkride where you demonstrate your ability. So, a commercial power guy who wants to add a commercial glider rating already has down most of the hard academics, but has to learn the soaring ones to pass the oral exam. Same thing with the CFI rating. And, I submit that the flying part is not that hard, to be able to fly on tow, do some thermaling, fly to commercial standards, land, etc. I also am a staunch believer that to be good at soaring takes a lot longer. And, I think you need to spend the time to become good at soaring before you can become an effective glider CFI. Personally, I didn't rush to get my glider commecial rating, because I felt I still had a lot to learn. I will probably go for it next year. But I'll do the power commercial first, becaus then I won't have to take another written exam to get the glider commercial. If I had the glider commercial, I would have to take a written to get the power commercial.
I would also agree that although it's easy to go from power to glider, it doesn't necesarily make sense. But in some ways it does, because that first commercial rating, or that first CFI rating, there is a lot of work and experience that goes into it.
CFI = certified flight instructor
CFIG = certified flight instructor, glider

I'm curious, maybe one of you guys can tell me what it takes to be a glider instructor in the UK. I find the differences interesting. But, I bet that US and UK licensing differences aside, I bet in a pub we would still have plenty in common and a lot to talk about, just like my soaring buddies here stateside.

-- IFMU

I believe the US system is very different - anecdotally I'm told it's one license, i.e. you can get a gliding 'endorsement' on your PPL etc.

Chris Reed and Sedbergh have summed the practical state up nicely. However, I do think it's rather sad for gliding.

While I don't have an arguament with some rating/qualification above standard solo to fly passengers, the instructor rating involves a significant amount of time, is external to the club (requires leave, not done at my convenience), and is targetted at teaching someone. It also means I'm going to get stuck on a rota flying trial lessons: All because I want to take a mate for a flight occasionally. Not really worth the agro.

To contrast, having moved to aus, I got signed off to fly passengers in a day: some pre-reading about passenger handling, a handfull of backseat flights to prove I could fly ok from the other end of the cockpit, some Q&A / passenger awareness, and a signature in my logbook.

I've always thought it's one of the great shames of gliding that I can't share it / introduce friends to the experience.

There is one license in the US, with different ratings. Each rating requires a checkride with an FAA designated examiner. An endorsement is something that an instructor can give you, like a tailwheel endorsement for a power pilot or a motorglider endorsement for a glider pilot.

I have given many rides to friends and family over the years. That is one of the benefits of a club, having access to two seaters for this purpose. The commercial operations I've flown at also have two seaters to rent, and they let anybody qualified and checked out with their instructor take passengers.

-- IFMU

Aha! That bit was handy as it makes more sense now. Here in the UK we have various "grades" of flying instructors for both power and gliding, but the main difference is that power flying is licenced and gliding is not. Just in case there is confusion, in the UK CFI for both power and gliding = Chief flying instructor (aka God). There is only one per club. The CFI of a gliding club has overall responsibility for safety and will be considered culpable in a serious accident even if he/she wasn't involved directly. As stated, you do not need an instructor rating to fly passengers but you do need the CFI's permission. With his/her head on the block it's a big responsibility that most are not happy to take lightly. It is therefore easier to only allow instructors to take passengers, as in an accident, the CFI can argue that the instructor was at least trained to take passengers. It is a shame that more do not allow qualified pilots to take passengers. However, self regulation in UK gliding has kept costs down and allowed a very good system to be developed by those who understand gliding the best (glider pilots themselves). All may change with EASA which may or may not be a good thing. I personally believe in the saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but polititions don't often think that way, so I guess it will all change soon. The one positive thing about the change though, is there will most likely be a formal glider pilots licence. That will move responsibilty away from the CFI and onto the licenced pilot, which will formally allow passengers to be flown.
SS

Seen a few comments regarding having to stand around all day to get a flight at a gliding club and thought I'd point out that the social atmosphere on the airfield is the main reason I stuck with gliding. I'm yet to find a power club that has the same kind of friendly comradery that exists in the gliding community.
Admittedly I do get jealous of a colleague of mine who leaves work at lunchtime on a Friday afternoon and by 2pm he has taken off in his Microlight from a grass strip near his home, you could never do that in gliding, but who is he going to enjoy a beer with in the bar at the end of the day?

Someone once said 'Gliding is flying for free with the atmosphere as your fuel and your intellect as your engine'. That just about sums it up really. Every flilght has a purpose and is a challenge. And imagine the sense of satisfaction when you land after flying for 4 hours round a 500km course (That's 125 km/h by the way) in an aeroplane with just the atmosphere and your intellect to power it.