Class D crossings!
 

I was just wondering about your experiences with Class D transit clearances?
Zones to definitely avoid when planning your trips!
To start this off i would like to say Stanstead is absolutely a no go zone. Likewise Manchester. Luton good, as is Thames. What are your experiences?

Bristol were great, no probs at all. Although they did ask me to speak slower! (first time across Class D, I must admit to a being a tad nervous)

I've never yet been refused a transit by East Mids who are one of the most friendly and helpful ATC units I've come across. Well done guys & girls!

I've only ever tried to go through Solent zone on two occasions - on the first they were helpful and accommodating at FL40 right over the top of SAM, whereas on the second they flatly refused me ANY transit and basically said go away. There may well have been genuine workload reasons for this but the frequency was far from busy and another VFR transit was granted to someone else just 2 mins. later on a similar track. I routed around and below their zone to east and they dumped me the moment I hit the coastline.

Always found Bournemouth very helpful and only once been refused when loads were very high.

Southampton (Solent) also OK but tend to be a bit curt - need to get your radio call(s) planned in advance so you can be concise and accurate.

Also make sure you LISTEN for their responses - first few times I was so relieved to have got my call right that I didn't listen to the response properly.

I always use the mnemonic TRPACER when asked to "Pass your message"

Type, Route, Position, Altitude, Condition (eg VFR), Estimate (next turning point or zone boundary), Request (eg. FIS and Zone Transit)

Hope this helps

I have only ever been refused Class D crossing once, about three years ago by Brize Norton as they had an air display of some sort at the time, which is fair enough.

An ATCO friend of mine has often said that the quality of RT received, with its competence implications, has a lot to do with the granting of Class D airspace crossings (in addition to the usual controller workload and traffic density.) If you sound confident with a clearly stated route and set of intentions you are far more likely to be cleared through.

Use any pneumonic that helps you - variations on PHACER are the most common. A standard call for me would normally be:

A/C: "Brize Zone, XXXX, request zone crossing N - S"
ATC: "XXXX, Brize Zone, Pass your details"
A/C: "XXXX is a T67 Firefly, 2 POB, 5nm North of (VRP) squarking XXXX, Heading 182, FL40, VFR Navex, Routing Direct VRP to VRP, Estimate zone boundary at XX, request zone crossing at FL40"
ATC: "XXXX squark IDENT"
A/C: "Squarking IDENT XXXX"
ATC: "XXXX Identified, Flight Information Service, cleared cross the Brize Zone at FL40, report clear of the zone"


plaa343

class D transit
 

Personally I have never had a problem except once or twice when controllers have been very busy.
I regularly cross Birmingham, East Midlands, Bristol ATZs and St Mawgan MATZ.

Most controllers most of the time will try to get you through,

SB

Brize are great, but I'm amazed how many pilots call for crossing on 124.275 (the Brize Radar (LARS) frequency) instead of 119.0 (Brize Zone). It's perfectly clear on the half-mil chart - the controlling frequency is printed exactly where it usually is... As a result the poor Brize controllers really need a prerecorded message 'For Zone Transit contact Brize Zone 119.0'.

Tim

All good info so far, i dont get down south much these days but when i do i will hope to recieve the help all of you seem to have had. Totally agree with the RT procedure line, good RT more likely to get clearance! So far though, no one has mentioned my two favourite no go zones, Manchester and Stanstead! Both of which i fly close to often and NEVER have been cleared through Manchester and only once through Stanstead. That one was in a C150 out of Lt Gransden and they asked us to climb to 4500' on the QNH to cross the runway:uhoh: We blagged it by going mode "A" and crossed at about 3700';) and were well clear of anything at that height. Heathrow have cleared me many more times than that, so if we are talking work load then surely these guy's have the heaviest? I've had the Ascot Burnham thousand foot run and cut a big chunk off the S.E Corner on my way to Bembridge out of Stapleford. Luton only refused once, and infact it wasnt so much a refusal as a stand by. But i could hear they were having trouble with a newby controller and so decided to go the long way round. Come to think of it, Liverpool have always been good when ever i have called them. Any ATCO's From MCR or STD reading, maybe you could explain the reluctance to clear us through:confused: :confused: safe flying one and all.

Because on the frequency card that comes with the map it has a little astrix by Brize saying for initial contact use LARS frequency (or something similar). I nearly did the same yesterday but requested a handover from Lyneham first who then told me to contact Brize on 119.0 :)

Must agree that Manchester never oblige. I was at Barton and asked the control room if it was worth phoning before hand for a clearance as i was going Soth East and dont particularly like the 1200 foot corridor. The man who knew all that sort of thing, you know the one who is allways on hand at any airfield?, said that even if they did give a clearance(which is unlikely) they would keep you orbiting for half an hour or so before giving you crossing permission:ugh: :ugh: therby loosing the POTENTIAL time saving of not using the low level route! On the plus side Cardiff, and Bristol have allways obliged in my experience. Personally i cant see what their problem is, if you transit abeam the upwind end of active runway at say 2-3000'? What say you all?

So you intentionally did not comply with an ATC clearance and removed the most important piece of information available to ATC and other aircraft in that airspace for preventing collisions.

and

You wonder why ATC in some places are reluctant to give your type of pilot a zone transit?

Could it be that many ATC think private pilot = idiot who will not comply with the clearance and cause problems?

You simply give them more reason to think that! :(

Regards,

DFC

For once I find myself in agreement with DFC!

I also find it hard to believe that you'd be offered the clearance you say you were for various reasons including that we don't use 500ft levels like that and you're up in Class A (there was an IR on board?) there and getting in the way of all the departure routes.

But hey, whatever...

Bear in mind that for Heathrow there is also a dedicated frequency for traffic looking to transit the Zone, unlike at the other airports where it is done on the approach frequency.

I wonder why my experiences are so different? I've always found Manchester very quick to say No if they are too busy, but very helpful when they are not.

Two examples (and I think I've described both of these on these forums before):

The first was a trial lesson student who wanted to fly over his house, very close to the edge of the Manchester zone. I called up Manchester to tell them I'd be operating close to, but outside, their zone, and they immediately gave me a squawk and cleared me into the zone if I needed it, even though I hadn't asked for it.

The second was another trial lesson student. This one pointed on the map to where his house was, and it was inside Manchester's zone. I explained to him that I'd try to let him fly over his house, but because it's so close to Manchester airport, ATC might not allow it. He was happy with that, so off we went.

Approaching the zone, I called them up on what sounded like a quiet frequency, and requested to "general handle inside your zone for two minutese, overhead [can't remember the name of the town]". There was a long pause before the controller replied "Why exactly do you need to general handle in my zone?"

Some quick thinking and smooth talking was required. "My passenger would like to photograph his house if you have no traffic to affect, but if it's not convenient it's no problem, we can remain clear". The controller then gave me a squawk, and told me to "remain clear of controlled airspace initially, but report approaching your site, you can expect to be cleared into controlled airspace to circle your passengers house once and only once"!

And that should have been the end of the story - except that en-route to where I thought my passenger's house was he actually spotted his house, nowhere near where he'd pointed to on the chart, and well outside controlled airspace. So I then had to call the controller again, thank him very much, apologise for the inconvenience, and tell him that I'd be remaining clear after all....!

So yes, it definitely can be done.

FFF
-----------------

Its quite a while since i flew the C150 out of Lt Gransden, but i am sure it was either 4500 or it may have been 4000, anything less and we wouldnt have had trouble reaching the level. But, DFC, it was definitely a clearance of that order. Just for the record, we left Gransden and were heading for Southend, tracking about 140deg at 1500' on the QNH. We requested and were given a clearnace, we had about 5 miles to run when we were given the clearance which meant we had to climb 3000' in 5 miles, which would mean a rate of asscent in the order of 1000ft/min- 2 blokes and an old club 150(as declared on initial contact with the ATSU) Surely anyone in the aviation business would know that was a tall(excuse the punn) order!! Now i allways run down the corridor @2000' and drop 800' going into the stubaccross North Weald. I wouldnt say i was an idiot, i would say letting someone into your airspace and then asking them to do something which was nigh on impossible was the stupid course of action! We declared that level was going to be a push and were told to continue:confused: We even asked if they would like us to orbit up to altitude before crossing the runway, which was not acceptable so you tell what you would have done? Lastly, i had my instructor with me so we had IR capabilities if required.

If you pretended to cross at the assigned altitude and didn't report that you actually weren't, then you're still an idiot in my book. ATC will be using that information to clear other aircraft safely above but also below you.

If you get what you call a 'stupid' clearance which you can't comply with, then it's up to you as the pilot to advise ATC you are unable to accept it, and negotiate a revised clearance.

DFC has it spot on. Pilots who do things like this ruin it for everyone else.

I see your point Radar, but we did advise we couldnt make the level, hence the offer to orbit. We kept the controller informed of our flight status, and were told to continue even though we said we wouldnt reach the assigned level. Looking back on it i admit it was a stupid thing to do, to turn the Transponder to mode "A". Actually, we didnt break any rules as the controller told us to continue, knowing we wouldnt make the level in time.

For the first time ever I find my self agreeing with DFC.....

Having your Instructor on board makes it even worse and I would pretty much guarantee in a clapped out club 150 you did not have "IFR capability". Unless of course it had been fitted with 2 alts, ADF and FM Immune equipment?

It is little wonder GA Pilots get such a bad rap if they think it is acceptable to "blag it" around controlled airspace.

As far as airspace is concerned I do think that they type fo metal you are flying does tend to influence the availability of a crossing. I have been refused crossings on low traffic days in the 152 and been given them without problem on high traffic days when whizzing accross in large multi engined metal.

Stanstead are notorious for being uncooperative as are Southampton but most other places I rarely have a problem. At 400hrs a year on private flights I get a pretty good exposure to zone crossing. Allthough these days I tend to go everywhere by airway!

If some can all get over the self righteous, unjustified, posturing over pistongone, for following his clearance, we might get back to the point of the thread. To wit:

Why does any class D zone in the UK feel justified in refusing a transit?

Nowhere in Europe gets even close to LAX, yet VFR is whizzing around enough to make your head spin. Both through the corridor and vectored through the Class B.

I have asked the same question everywhere I can think of and I am genuinely eager to understand the reason.

The silence, however leads me to think that the answer is likely to be along the lines of:

"We don't want the hassle. OK."

I have never been refused. I regulalrly (well did until July) transited Liverpool, Manchester or Belfast. Now and again Dublin or East Mids. And not once was I refused. I have had to hold outside the class D for a few minutes and had to accept vectors through the airspace.

I usualy give them an early call as possible. Liverpool have been the best for me even during peak Easyjet hours closely followed by Belfast. East Mids have given me the biggest run about as has Dublin

Durham Tees were very helpful, despite refering to us as a microlight!:) (were in a motorglider). They didn't have any problem with the fact we didn't have a transponder and with my dodgy RT!:}

OVC, my impression of Stansted (Essex Radar) is that they are usually so busy with traffic they have to talk to, that they have little opportunity to talk to people outside the CTA who have the option of going round or staying outside.

If they do talk to power GA outside the CTA, it is usually to tell them to stay outside CAS. They may pass traffic info, if they have time.

Gliders (like me) get lowest priority - usually just a brusque "standby and stay outside CAS" followed by a long wait is usual.

I actually feel sorry for the ATCOs on Essex - Stansted Director and Tower seem much less busy (I sometimes monitor them just out of interest - I fly a lot near the CTA). And we only hear their RT - I gather they have to use the phone too at times, which sounds like silence on RT.

Chris N.

OVC002

So you endorse this part of the posters statement then ??

In which case you are as silly as he/she was. It's people like you that will one day have the unfortunate accident that kills it all for everyone of us in GA. Do us all a favour, stay on the ground, or obey the rules.

PS Have flown in Scotland a few times in the last week and Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Prestwick have all given me pretty much unrestricted clearances through their Class D. The only hardship was to orbit once at the Bridges in the Edinburgh Control Zone, until I spotted the Airbus at 4 mile final. Once spotted, my clearance was to transit above and behind, duly complied with :ok:

I've been cleared over stansted almost everytime i've asked, in both helis and fixed wing, they seem pretty obliging.

There have been a couple of times when I've not even bothered calling due to their RT workload.

I'm not sure why they get the bad rep, they don't deserve it...

Glasgow are great. Never had a problem. Edinburgh likewise, occasionally held at the bridges but then usually cleared through the overhead. Prestwick good too, they just seem to prefer a wee bit more notice if you can give it.

All in all a good experience in Scotland.

Just remember, if you sound confident and is if you know what you're doing you'll generally get what you want.

If you umm and errr and think with the mike open, you immediately raise suspicion that you migth be a potential idiot.

Blimmin 'eck, me too :ooh: :)

Only once have I had problems. I wasn't refused as such but told to remain clear of CAS and orbit. After orbiting a while I got bored and decided to skirt the zone, and just as I started skirting, I was cleared through. I'm sure they were taking bets on how long I would orbit for :}

Actually a related question (don't have a chart to hand, so forgive me if it is obvious):

If I wanted to transit Bournemouth at 3000' who would I call? Solents' CTA overlays Bournemouth, yet in the past when I have been in CAS above Bournemouth for instrument training at FL50 or so, I have been talking to Bournemouth. Also, if it is Solent I talk to (which is who I assume I should call), is the terminology still a "zone transit" seeing as it is a CTA?

Ta.

Just to add my bit from an ATC point of view... Pistongone, a VFR clearance is usually "not above XXXXft", so if the controller gave you a specific level, you'd better believe there was a good reason for it! As others have said, if you can't accept the terms of the clearance tell us and you might just get another clearance which is less restrictive.

And everyone, PLEASE do not tell us your heading when giving your initial call. It is superfluous. Type, route, destination and level is all that's basically required. If we want to know heading, persons on board, what you had for lunch etc, we'll ask!!

PPRUNE Radar

Your post is as ignorant as it is offensive. pistongone had already corrected his original statement.

Which bit of :

did you not understand?

piston gone followed his clearance and kept ATC advised of his inability to reach the assigned level. For this we have been pilloried by you and others. The abuse is unjustified based upon the stated facts.

The decision to turn off the mode 'C' was eyebrow raising admittedly.

Contrary to your advice I shall continue to fly, and follow my clearance, to the best of my ability. I will also continue to make comments here based upon all of the facts, and not twist them by selectively ignoring previously clarified statements.

I would ask that you "do us all a favour" by doing the same.

PPrune Radar

You're out of line.

The WHOLE episode, as told, was stupid and all involved come out of it badly, including the controller.

Remember that pilots usually die in a middair, but the controller doesn't.

OVC002

Dear Indignant of PPRuNe, I think you doth protest too much. PPRuNe has always been about robust debate and comment. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. pistongone corrected twice, adding a bit more each time. Important issues were aired and points made on both sides.

To a controller this implies that the level will probably be made, but only just. It is not the same as saying 'unable' which leaves no leeway for interpretation.

That is a totally different circumstance, and the controller can then amend a clearance based upon it. So which was it ??

Notice that pistongone never retracted the fact that Mode C was switched off (deliberately) to hide a possible non compliance with a clearance, which has been the main thing most people raised their eyebrows at.

Lesson learned and good to see pistongone understands why there was concern. I give him/her great credit for that statement and for bringing up the discussion point. On that basis I have absolutely no beef with pistongone. We all make mistakes in aviation. We all learn and move on, as better pilots hopefully.

Glad to hear it :ok: GA needs all the people it can muster to help support it. All I would say on the above is that following your clearance to the best of your ability is laudable, but if the best of your ability means that you can't comply with it (for whatever reason), then you need to shout up and let ATC know so we can come up with a safe alternative. Switching off Mode C and 'blagging it' is hopefully now fully recognised as not being a safe alternative :O

Final 3 Greens

I like being out of line :ok: ... especially when it comes to things like railing against Mode S which the CAA want to impose. Although if it allows monitoring compliance to clearances by GA guys to be easier, maybe I should move across to the dark side and embrace it ?? ;)

In what way does the controller come out badly ?? From what was said, they gave a clearance which was initially safe, although possibly unachievable. But that's for the pilot to decide, not ATC, who would excpect compliance unless told otherwise. pistongone told us subsequently that they told ATC it would be difficult to make, and an amended clearance to continue seems to have been issued.

True as a general statement, but the family of controller Peter Nielsen might beg to differ.

What did the controller do wrong?

Well based on the data supplied by pistongone, they were allowed to continue crossing class A airspace, without charlie, on what I would call a "non clearance", since they were cleared to 4,000 or 4,500', declared they wouldn't make it and were told told continue without being assigned a new clearance level.

If they had received a new clearance saying "not below 3,500 feet" or similar, that would make sense, but no reaction other than "continue" when climbing through class A airspace?

I find this unbelievable to be honest and wonder whether pistongone's memory is correct, but on those facts I would say that the controller could not ensure separation where there was such uncertainty about the crossing level of the traffic.

Peter Nielsen

Pieter Nielsen did not die in a middair accident, he was brutally murdered on the ground, a crime for which the perpetrator was subsequently convicted.

That is a fact, your comment is a cheap shot that this man and his family do not deserve and I do not respect you for making such a comment.

Lyneham are very helpful.
(fun flying over a circuit of C130s)

Worth remembering chaps that recently the PFA/AOPA have asked VFR pilots to report to them when Class D transits are denied. If I recall correctly, this is because when Class D airspace allocation is granted, it's usually promised that the effect on GA will be minimal.

Apparantly, if a transit is refused, the PFA/AOPA get involved, the controller has to write a report, which eventually should mean that it's easier for them to provide a clearance rather than bluntly deny one due to the paperwork.

Er - wrong.

If it's too busy to issue a safe crossing clearance due to the "main customer" (the airports arrivals / departures), you aint going to get a transit clearance - period. No amount of complaining from anyone is going to change that.

You can report a refusal if you want - but if it transpires that it's one of the 5-10% that gets refused when the rest get approved it's just going to prove that the Class 'D' is actually doing what it's meant to be doing - protecting Public Transport operations.

Lyneham are one of the stations that always tell me to stay outside CAS and hand me on as soon as possible. Not the most friendly of operators

Essex Radar seem to be having constant rows with Ryanair pilots - the last time the jet apeared to be ignoring ATC instructions - so by the time they get back to me I've long gone

But on a slightly different issue, I spoke to a couple of CAA types who were lecturing me on always using a radar service or LARS. They seemed to have no idea that LARS is not always available (Yeovilton has been notamed as closed).

Are there any CAA employees out there that understand how gliders, microlights and Permit aircraft operate in Class G??

Visually and carefully!!! :D

Regards,

DFC

That goes without saying, as far as pilots are concerned. My issue is that the CAA seem to assume that all of us are always in touch with a radar service.

Speak to one of these 'high priests of aviation' and their mouths drop open when you tell them that LARS are not a 24/7 service or that some of us operate non-radio

"If it's too busy to issue a safe crossing clearance due to the "main customer" (the airports arrivals / departures), you aint going to get a transit clearance - period. No amount of complaining from anyone is going to change that."

This is the CAA's view:

There is no formal requirement for controllers to explain why a zone crossing clearance has been refused. Any such requirement would have significant R/T workload implications. It is considered preferable for refusals to be pursued after the event. Controlling authorities of new controlled airspace structures are now required to record refusals; pilots may in turn submit refusal reports in accordance with the procedure devised by Peter Skinner (AOPA/GASCo) or submit an occurrence report (CA1261).