Porco,

Suspect we would agree on most things actually.

chilli,

What makes you think I haven't? Have spent quite some time sitting by controllers at Class D, Class B and area facilities, and arranging trips for students at all levels to do the same. Learn a lot myself too. I think controllers are far better trained than 95% of civilian pilots and more 'professional' to boot. I also realise you have a rule book. I have a lot of time for controllers, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Some are obviously incompetent and have bad attitudes, but I've seen them weeded out quite early, which is encouraging. Still some around though.

But don't want to butter up the controllers too much though, an occasional whine is needed to keep you lot on your toes, need to keep the hired help in their place :)

So yes, I reported the 'go around' story second hand, I don't know what really happened, but no pilot has come along and said 's_s, you are off your head'. It actually seems like other pilots have come along and told stories which makes it easy to believe.

Rustle, I think I'd just hang around and wait for him to depart, there is a social side to flying as well as all the legal nonsense. He probably wouldn't do the same for you but then nothing wrong with doing a good turn and that feeling of morally superiority you would get over the commercial rabble is a good one :) You can afford to keep that shiny JAA IR so don't tell me you cannot afford another 5 mins flying time, lol.

Rustle, I think I'd just hang around and wait for him to depart, there is a social side to flying as well as all the legal nonsense. He probably wouldn't do the same for you

When I was my first solo, a BAC1-11 arrived in the circuit and insisted on extending downwind so that I wasn't under pressure.

There are some gentlemen out there.

Equally, a few years later, I went around to "let in" a turboprop on royal mail duties, since I knew how much time pressure they were under.

Cost me the price of a pint or two and bought me a lot of goodwill.

In general, reasonableness is a good thing.

A wise move, it might upset the ladies :)

Yer right, they're all a bunch of ladies :p

You know what I meant :ok:

Chilli

Be interesting to know where.

Solent and Gatwick


Airport employs ATCO's, airlines pay airport, airport pays wages. If you don't provide the airlines with what they want they go elsewhere.


Yes, but the more this attitude prevails, the more resistant GA will become to more airspace grab, the more inclinded GA will be to routing around the zone without talking to anyone, and utlimately the more problems will arise as set out at the start of this thread. That is why a working partenership must be established.


That's total b*ll*cks and I prove that every day I go to work.

You are quite correct. On the whole, within the constraints they impose, the service is very good. In fact I have very few complaints BUT I worry the perception is changing.


Not true - transits can, and are given with equal priority being given to both aircraft.

That may be your experience at places like Bristol / Filton. Ask for a transit through occasional inbound traffic at Stansted or Luton and you will find the experience somewhat different. The problem areas are not th elikes of Bristol / Filton, but natural restriction points that seriosuly hinder the flow of traffic such as Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Heathrow and to a lesser extent Southampton.


That's called prioritising - the first priority is often to the sequence you've got on the approach. Are you trying to tell me you would, in whatever your job is, walk away from the main priority in order to deal with something that isn't as pressing? If you do I suggest you wouldn't last long in your employment.

True. In fact I cannot recall the last time I have been refused a RIS around Gatwick for example. However I can recall a very recent refusal from Stansted in bad weather - despite gentle persuasion they were not in the slightest bit interest and not busy.

In short if you have not got enough staff to provide the service because your commercial workload has increased get some more staff. Your priority is to provide a consistant service to GA and commercial traffic. Strangely that means being able to cope with the rise and fall in demand.

Of course you have the advantage of pretty much knowing the times of your peak demand as well.

Again, total rot - the safest place for a transit is often straight through the overhead, and where I work they get approved more often than not.

Agreed




What's wrong with that? The transit hasn't been refused, you're just being told to wait for your clearance. It's become necessary because of the number of people who train in the US, who think that US rules apply, insofar that once you've established two way comms with an ATC unit you can transit with no formal clearance.


How long do your orbit? How long do you wait? I have little interest in waiting for as long as it would take me to route around the zone. Guess what I am going to do if the wait is too long? Strangely, I am not thrilled about doing five orbits while you have a cup of tea and I am literally hanging in suspense.




I'm sorry if someone's been held in the circuit. It's not my fault that Brussels has just changed the slot on a departure and I've got to get them away in the next 90 seconds otherwise they wait another hour and a half.

Not my fault either. I suspect if Brussels has screwed up down the line delays should be expected further on. It is sort of like saying if you get stuck in traffic congestion in London when you get to Bristol you get to barge everyone else out the way.

I said a busy combined Commercial & GA airport - did I not?
I quite agree - I think that what you've covered in this statement actually helps the scenario.

Beags said earlier on that he's always used the following rule of thumb - if you're within 10 miles of a class 'G' airport with an IAP they get called. Now, if you call you're helping out the ATC service by telling them you're there. If it's done properly, and the relationship works, then the whole need for a small Commercial airport operation (like Coventry) rapidly dissipates. Therefore - no airspace grab. Obviously if you start getting "Controlled" too much then GA is going to bite back - and for good reason. It's up to the ATC provider themselves to teach from within that it is Class 'G'. it's not CAS, and they have to co-operate. That's what we need to happen. If the airlines don't like that then I'll say it again - go somewhere that CAS is already established.
Actually the priority is to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. If that means occasionally denying access to CAS or delaying access then so be it.

I love the fact that most PPL's, with no training, are all experts at my chosen career. You did your ATC course - where?
Call early enough and you probably won't have to do either. Call a mile from the zone boundary and that's your own fault.
That is rather insulting, and has no place in rational debate - mainly because it's a complete untruth.
Like I said - total incomprehension of the system and how it works. That "slot" is normally because the other end has delays (weather, serviceabilities etc etc). To fit in the flow that aircraft has to arrive at destination at a certain time - therefore it has to leave at a certain time. On that basis I have a finite window to depart them, and if it means you pitch up at the wrong moment you get the slight inconvenience. Sorry, but that's how the game is played.

Real world scenario. Greek airport, popular holiday destination, has a major equipment outage. Arrivals restricted to 5 per hour. That affects every departure for there throughout Europe, some departing from us. Believe me - that departure window cannot be broken (And I'm not going to be in the office explaining why I have).

In general, reasonableness is a good thing.

Good point.

Isn't that where this thread started? ;)

LARS controllers
 

Sorry, but we don't. Just 1 ATCO trying to juggle ins,outs(IFR & VFR),zone transits, co-ordination with several adjacent mil and civ airfields and area units,etc as well as LARS. As Chilli says we prioritise.;)

Chilli

"I said a busy combined Commercial & GA airport - did I not?"

Sorry, you are correct, although I suppose solent does support one GA airport and one that use to be (and still does a bit of GA).

"Actually the priority is to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. If that means occasionally denying access to CAS or delaying access then so be it."

I was being provactive. However, you use the word expeditious and air traffic, without limitation which leaves you close to my point. The service is not limited to meeting these priorities for commercial traffic or GA traffic BUT for ALL air traffic.

"I love the fact that most PPL's, with no training, are all experts at my chosen career. You did your ATC course - where?"

That is always a dangerous one. Whilst I am certainly not an expert, I am a recipient of your service. From my stand point I am no more interested in what it takes for you to provide your service than how a doctor arrives at his diagnosis. I simply require that the doctor makes me better, as I would hope you would provide me with safe, orderly and expeditious flow . If I wanted to understand how the doctor makes me better I may as well be the doctor and not bother with his services in the first place. That is why you are an expert and I would hope do you best to provide me with the serivce I require.


"Call early enough and you probably won't have to do either. Call a mile from the zone boundary and that's your own fault."

Sorry, but you are wrong. I have been transiting CAS for a very long time. I reckon I know when and how to make the call.


"That is rather insulting, and has no place in rational debate - mainly because it's a complete untruth."

True - forgive me for being provocative agian.



"Like I said - total incomprehension of the system and how it works. That "slot" is normally because the other end has delays (weather, serviceabilities etc etc). To fit in the flow that aircraft has to arrive at destination at a certain time - therefore it has to leave at a certain time. On that basis I have a finite window to depart them, and if it means you pitch up at the wrong moment you get the slight inconvenience. Sorry, but that's how the game is played.

Real world scenario. Greek airport, popular holiday destination, has a major equipment outage. Arrivals restricted to 5 per hour. That affects every departure for there throughout Europe, some departing from us. Believe me - that departure window cannot be broken (And I'm not going to be in the office explaining why I have)."

.. .. .. but that is the point. You actually manage the commercial pressures very well and it is not usually in my experience a significant problem. However as CAS grows, as commercial pressures grow, as the sytem causes more and more delays the occasions where GA lose any priority become more frequent (because you are not going to be in the office explaining why), GA gets frustrated and the problems identified on this thread arise. Is it your fault - probably not. However the regulator obviously felt there was a problem by asking GA to report CAS transit denials. The original poster obvioulsy felt there was a problem becasue he felt GA had no place under his localiser. I feel it is a problem becasue I get my call in, in plenty of time and are all to often left wondering whether I will get the clearance and when.

I suppose it is a bit like the NHS. See the patient in 5 minutes and you can claim there are no delays. Tell the pilot to remain out side controlled airspace, I will come back - and the transit has not actually been denied, but by the time it has been granted there is a good chance the pilot's b**%£"" of some where else and even better will not bother next time. Trouble is he has become a different problem because he is now under my localiser not talking to me and there is nothing I can do about it but claim more CAS.

Fuji Abound you seem to have been a bit unfortunate with your experiences with Luton. I operate from a little grass strip under the approach to 26 so get to talk to Luton Radar a lot! On very few occasions have I heard Luton Radar turn down a transit request, if they are in one of their extremely busy patches ,or there is a new controller on then there will be the standard phrase "remain outside controlled airspace" but it is usually suffixed with an assurance that they will reply soon.

Personally I think Luton are a great example of how mixed GA / CAT should operate. In their immediate surroundings they have two active glider sites, three microlight fields, three grass strips, an RAF light training base (Henlow), a busy GA field (Panshanger) and a field that hosts regular summer airshows (Old Warden). Couple this with the demands of easyJet, Ryanair, Monarch, Whizz plus others and a host of bizjets and helicopters flying into Luton (oops plus the Police helo) they cope remarkably well and provide a couteous service.

PS Forgot the Luton Flying School operating from tha airport itself.