I think this is all about reasonable priority.

As stated above, the paragraph that Flower referred me to, seems to give priority to aircraft on a flight plan following a normal routing. It does not give priority to Commercial, Heavy, IFR etc traffic. At least not as far as I see. I could be wrong.....this is new to me.

As someone who routinely flys with a flight plan (almost all of my flights have a flight plan), it would seem that I should be given equal priority to the commercial traffic. This isn't what happens in practise.

What if every GA flight, filed a flight plan, and followed "normal routings", would we all be treated as equals? Unlikely, or that is what everyone would be doing now.

I think the problem is two fold.

1. Many PPL's have never routinely operated from a controlled field, and are a little frightened of ATC. They plan their flights to remain in Class G, so that they don't have to talk to "big professional ATC", but are happy to call the radio at a local grass strip. This needs to be better covered by the PPL training, and also the PPL's themselves need work on their post skills test experience.

2. ATC providing instructions outside controlled airspace, that prioritises CAT over GA, and refusing transits (or delaying so much that it amounts to a refusal). Most GA pilots would be happy to accept a request to turn a little bit, or climb/descent a little to accommodate someone else. Being told to orbit while someone else goes through (in class G) is a little much, and likely to result in the pilot (not unreasonably) not calling next time.

More freely available RIS would defiantly encourage pilots to call (and hand overs). However I understand this is a manpower issue, and not necessarily in the power of the ATCer to solve.

dp

When we have traffic going down the ILS at minimum spacing and someone doesn't follow the speed instruction and the spacing erodes, it's usually the innocent party behind that gets broken off and re-positioned. Or as you might like to say, punished.

But we don't look at it that way, we're just after the safest solution to the problem and that is usually to break off the one behind. I'm sure the atco in the scenario you describe thought they were dealing with the problem in the safest way for all as well. Introducing language talking about punishing people doesn't do anything but possibly unnecessarily inflame any debate.

I think ultimately we'll probably just have to agree to disagree :)

I wouldn't necessarily consider it purely commercial considerations.

Is the safest option a minor re-route or maybe an orbit for a one ton aircraft at 90 knots or a two hundred ton aircraft at 250 knots?

The latter covers an awful lot of countryside.

Someone has to make the decision, whichever way the atco goes the other side will think they were disadvantaged so it's a lose/lose situation for ATC.

I wish I'd read this earlier.

I agree with Beagle, who as always, has a common sense view. He should get an OBE. Needs to drag himself out of the 50s though.....

Commercial outfits do not have priority over the rest of the airspace users in Class G airspace. We are all here to fit in and exist together. And ATC units do not have the right to 'control' anything outside their airspace, despite what some of them might think. Southend, Manston to name a few in the SE.... If they want to protect their 1 movement a day ILS trafiic, get a Control Zone. I do however, advocate radio contact to tell them you are there if you are radio equipped (And I'll defend my right to remain non-radio if I choose in Class G)

If operators can't, or won't pay to use airports inside CAS, then their pilot's need to look out of the window for that uncontrolled GA traffic that has a perfect right to be there. I wonder how many pilots advocating overcontrolling were once humble GA pilots before they got their first job in the LHS?

If it's Class G, it's see and avoid, end of subject and I'll fight to keep it that way for as long as I work in a position where I can..

Can I point you to another possibility?

PPL was told "Keep it tight" and was passed the distance and type of the inbound. PPL then proceeds to fly normal circuit, normal speed with heavy boy tearing up behind?

I'm not saying that's what happened - but it does happen that way. This Flying / ATC relationship is a two way street. If you can't accept something a little out of the ordinary then tell me and I'll formulate another plan. On the same basis if I've got a first or early solo in the circuit and it looks like a dead ringer from early on I'll ask the radar person for a couple of extra miles to make sure it works.

Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion.

The first point, goodness how many times has that happened, far more times than I care to remember.

And again I concur , all those criticising visit a unit and see just what goes on.

You're missing the point. In Class G it isn't a decision for an ATCO to make.

In any event, I don't consider a 90 degree track change or a course reversal in class G to be a minor re-route. This has happened to me on a number of occasions, even when I have been in sight of the other traffic and quite happy to make my own separation on a see and be seen basis, as I am entitled and required to do. I also carry passengers who are on a tight schedule, btw; I'm not flying GA for pleasure. Often the man who signs my pay cheque is actually sitting in the aircraft :p

It is, up to the point the pilot of whichever aircraft is asked to do something declines the request.

From the section in the AIP dealing with airspace classification, specifically with Class G;



Note 1: Where Air Traffic Control Units provide ATS to traffic outside Controlled Airspace, separation may be provided between known flights.




Note 2: Aircraft receiving services from Air Traffic Control Units are expected to comply with clearances and instructions unless the pilot advises otherwise.

"Slim - come and watch some day at a busy, combined GA and Commercial unit. I guarantee you'll leave with a slightly different opinion."

I have, but it didnt change my perception.

On the whole I think ATCO do a terrific job - BUT the perception remains their priority is commercial trafic.

It seems to me absolutely clear from this thread most GA pilots would struggle to find a single occasion when AT is really trying to accomodate their needs. Zone transits are given only if it provides NO interference with commercial users, RIS outside CAS is only given if the workload is low, overhead transits at the larger airports are never given, and zone transits are only approved after the envitable "remain outside of controlled airspace, I will call you". Please someone tell me this is not their experience.

I have asked Gatwick on a number of occasions for a zone transit via their overhead - it has never been granted - why?

Let me start by saying I have the greatest faith and trust in UK controllers. How many will (honestly please) put the consideration of CAT before GA in most circumstances?

Flying into a FISO airfield, and we're the only ones inbound, nothing in the circuit.

We'd like a straight in approach as we're coming from the west and rwy in use is 07.

We advise we'd like a straight in approach and FISO advises us that an aircraft needs to depart as he has a slot to meet so can we join deadside and circuit... (For completeness, he hasn't yet taxied onto the runway ;))

Do I ignore the FISO and land anyway, or do I join deadside and circuit to land? Both options are legal.

Rustle - is it not the case that traffic on the ground gives way to landing aircraft?

Up until a couple of years or so ago there was an instruction that prohibited fixed wing transits through the ATZ, but that's not there anymore so no issues there.

The ultimate arbiter for whether or not a transit through the KK overhead is approved or not is the tower controller, not the radar man.

When you call up and, during the pass your message bit, say you want to transit via the overhead it's almost inevitable that you'll be told initially to "remain outside CAS" as the radar man is not allowed to approve your request without getting on the phone to the tower controller.

Radar man may have no issues with your request but if tower say no for their own reasons then unfortunately no is the answer.

Assuming tower man says yes there are at least two further phone calls to be made by radar man. One to the tower supervisor to have your details for the crossing put in to the EFPS system in the tower and then as you get closer to the airfield another call to the tower controller to identify you to him on the ATM (mini radar) in the tower.

I guess if it's busy and workload is an issue then the radar man may decline due to the additional workload imposed.

Anyway, I've had a fair degree of success going through the KK overhead, so keep trying :)

Be interesting to know where.
Airport employs ATCO's, airlines pay airport, airport pays wages. If you don't provide the airlines with what they want they go elsewhere.
That's total b*ll*cks and I prove that every day I go to work.
Not true - transits can, and are given with equal priority being given to both aircraft.
That's called prioritising - the first priority is often to the sequence you've got on the approach. Are you trying to tell me you would, in whatever your job is, walk away from the main priority in order to deal with something that isn't as pressing? If you do I suggest you wouldn't last long in your employment.
Again, total rot - the safest place for a transit is often straight through the overhead, and where I work they get approved more often than not.
What's wrong with that? The transit hasn't been refused, you're just being told to wait for your clearance. It's become necessary because of the number of people who train in the US, who think that US rules apply, insofar that once you've established two way comms with an ATC unit you can transit with no formal clearance.

If this thread has shown anything it has proved that the vast majority of PPL's who scream and bellow about how unfairly they are treated by ATC have no conception about many of the factors that affect just how traffic is handled in the terminal environment.

I'm sorry if someone's been held in the circuit. It's not my fault that Brussels has just changed the slot on a departure and I've got to get them away in the next 90 seconds otherwise they wait another hour and a half.

I'm sorry if you get held at the holding point because you want to save on taxying, but I can't get you away because you need 3 minutes separation from the previous departure and the queue at the hold who I can shoot off 1 or 2 minutes apart isn't going to allow that.

I'm sorry you can't get a RIS because the military have gone home for the weekend, and you want a RIS on a CAVOK day when every man and his dog wants to call at the same time as Joe Public want to go on their summer hols, or come back from them.

Get the picture?

Indeed, but he's got a slot to meet, and we're still outside the ATZ (but within 10nm ;))

Rustle, surely that's got nothing to do with airmanship, it's called manners? You'd be quite entitled to make that straight-in, but good manners require you to imagine yourself in his position; he has a slot to make, you will lose him his slot if you make the straight-in, and all you have to lose is another 5 minutes in the air (longer if you have to make a big circuit, depending on local procedures).

Tim

Oh my gosh - we are really getting into the small print now! "Note 2: Aircraft receiving services from Air Traffic Control Units are expected to comply with clearances and instructions unless the pilot advises otherwise."

In Class G its a see and be seen environment. A larger aircraft does NOT have right of way whilst positioning outside controlled airspace, except in accordance with the rules of the air - whatever the aircraft size, weight, POB or name painted on the hull.

If I'm requesting a Flight Information Service, that is all I'm asking for, not to be given radar headings to give preference to a "home based" aircraft as if I'm under radar control inside Class A, especially to "avoid" an aircraft I've already seen and said I am well clear of.

A controller giving a FIS is only expected to pass traffic information to the pilot requesting the service, not to "take control" of it. Even under Radar Information, a controller shouldn't try to mandate one particular aircraft to give way to another. It's up to the pilot to take what action, if any, he thinks necessary under the rules of the air and common sense. Radar advisory can be offered or requested, in which case, the pilot should expect headings etc - that's what he is agreeing to. Everything else is by negotiation, hopefully to the mutual benefit and safety of all.

Most ATC personnel at the major airports certainly operate in this manner - but a few at some minor airfields don't. As well as the pilot who doesn't keep clear of CAS or make a radio call when prudent, it's this minority in ATC who make a rod for their own back, which impacts on everyone eventually.

BTW, I'm playing Devil's advocate here - I always do EXACTLY what a controller requests, as politely, accurately and as promptly as possible - even when it inconveniences me in Class G. Sometimes, by listening out, looking out, watching TCAS and building a big picture before I make my request, I have already done what I can to make his, or her, life as easy as possible. ;)

Never call 'em "Sir" though. :E

Actually it has everything to do with airmanship I'd have thought, which is why we did the deadside join :)

Ah - but do you want to risk him still being on the ground the same time as you (because he's missed his slot) and he's bigger than you, with a volatile temper ;)

We were recently given an instruction that on hearing the request for a zone transit that we were to use without exception the phrase "remain outside CAS". Why ? because so many out there seem to believe once they have requested the zone transit from ATC and are in communication that they may just transit the zone.
Porco Rosso has already explained the lengthy process which can take place at many ATC units prior to a clearance being given.
As for CAT having priority over other flights well yes MATS part 1 again tells us that they do, Dublin Pilot I take it you were filing VFR flight plans not flying airways and thus not going normal routes? if so then you come below normal flights in the priority stakes.
As we say time and time again it is a lot simpler and safer to ask a PA28 to orbit than a B747.

IF you use a unit operating a LARS service they have a dedicated controller juts for you working their socks off trying to give you a good service, if you call up a unit without LARS then there can be a very good chance you will have a very minimum service because of workload issues but you can bet they will do everything they can subject workload to help you out.
WE have limited staffing, LARS is so inadequately funded that it is a wonder any Airport offers a LARS service at all, and so we prioritise. I am sorry if you think you are the poor relation but as with everything in life you get what you pay for, the Airlines pay us, the average PPL does not.

Porco,

Suspect we would agree on most things actually.

chilli,

What makes you think I haven't? Have spent quite some time sitting by controllers at Class D, Class B and area facilities, and arranging trips for students at all levels to do the same. Learn a lot myself too. I think controllers are far better trained than 95% of civilian pilots and more 'professional' to boot. I also realise you have a rule book. I have a lot of time for controllers, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Some are obviously incompetent and have bad attitudes, but I've seen them weeded out quite early, which is encouraging. Still some around though.

But don't want to butter up the controllers too much though, an occasional whine is needed to keep you lot on your toes, need to keep the hired help in their place :)

So yes, I reported the 'go around' story second hand, I don't know what really happened, but no pilot has come along and said 's_s, you are off your head'. It actually seems like other pilots have come along and told stories which makes it easy to believe.

Rustle, I think I'd just hang around and wait for him to depart, there is a social side to flying as well as all the legal nonsense. He probably wouldn't do the same for you but then nothing wrong with doing a good turn and that feeling of morally superiority you would get over the commercial rabble is a good one :) You can afford to keep that shiny JAA IR so don't tell me you cannot afford another 5 mins flying time, lol.

Rustle, I think I'd just hang around and wait for him to depart, there is a social side to flying as well as all the legal nonsense. He probably wouldn't do the same for you

When I was my first solo, a BAC1-11 arrived in the circuit and insisted on extending downwind so that I wasn't under pressure.

There are some gentlemen out there.

Equally, a few years later, I went around to "let in" a turboprop on royal mail duties, since I knew how much time pressure they were under.

Cost me the price of a pint or two and bought me a lot of goodwill.

In general, reasonableness is a good thing.

A wise move, it might upset the ladies :)

Yer right, they're all a bunch of ladies :p

You know what I meant :ok:

Chilli

Be interesting to know where.

Solent and Gatwick


Airport employs ATCO's, airlines pay airport, airport pays wages. If you don't provide the airlines with what they want they go elsewhere.


Yes, but the more this attitude prevails, the more resistant GA will become to more airspace grab, the more inclinded GA will be to routing around the zone without talking to anyone, and utlimately the more problems will arise as set out at the start of this thread. That is why a working partenership must be established.


That's total b*ll*cks and I prove that every day I go to work.

You are quite correct. On the whole, within the constraints they impose, the service is very good. In fact I have very few complaints BUT I worry the perception is changing.


Not true - transits can, and are given with equal priority being given to both aircraft.

That may be your experience at places like Bristol / Filton. Ask for a transit through occasional inbound traffic at Stansted or Luton and you will find the experience somewhat different. The problem areas are not th elikes of Bristol / Filton, but natural restriction points that seriosuly hinder the flow of traffic such as Gatwick, Luton, Stansted, Heathrow and to a lesser extent Southampton.


That's called prioritising - the first priority is often to the sequence you've got on the approach. Are you trying to tell me you would, in whatever your job is, walk away from the main priority in order to deal with something that isn't as pressing? If you do I suggest you wouldn't last long in your employment.

True. In fact I cannot recall the last time I have been refused a RIS around Gatwick for example. However I can recall a very recent refusal from Stansted in bad weather - despite gentle persuasion they were not in the slightest bit interest and not busy.

In short if you have not got enough staff to provide the service because your commercial workload has increased get some more staff. Your priority is to provide a consistant service to GA and commercial traffic. Strangely that means being able to cope with the rise and fall in demand.

Of course you have the advantage of pretty much knowing the times of your peak demand as well.

Again, total rot - the safest place for a transit is often straight through the overhead, and where I work they get approved more often than not.

Agreed




What's wrong with that? The transit hasn't been refused, you're just being told to wait for your clearance. It's become necessary because of the number of people who train in the US, who think that US rules apply, insofar that once you've established two way comms with an ATC unit you can transit with no formal clearance.


How long do your orbit? How long do you wait? I have little interest in waiting for as long as it would take me to route around the zone. Guess what I am going to do if the wait is too long? Strangely, I am not thrilled about doing five orbits while you have a cup of tea and I am literally hanging in suspense.




I'm sorry if someone's been held in the circuit. It's not my fault that Brussels has just changed the slot on a departure and I've got to get them away in the next 90 seconds otherwise they wait another hour and a half.

Not my fault either. I suspect if Brussels has screwed up down the line delays should be expected further on. It is sort of like saying if you get stuck in traffic congestion in London when you get to Bristol you get to barge everyone else out the way.

I said a busy combined Commercial & GA airport - did I not?
I quite agree - I think that what you've covered in this statement actually helps the scenario.

Beags said earlier on that he's always used the following rule of thumb - if you're within 10 miles of a class 'G' airport with an IAP they get called. Now, if you call you're helping out the ATC service by telling them you're there. If it's done properly, and the relationship works, then the whole need for a small Commercial airport operation (like Coventry) rapidly dissipates. Therefore - no airspace grab. Obviously if you start getting "Controlled" too much then GA is going to bite back - and for good reason. It's up to the ATC provider themselves to teach from within that it is Class 'G'. it's not CAS, and they have to co-operate. That's what we need to happen. If the airlines don't like that then I'll say it again - go somewhere that CAS is already established.
Actually the priority is to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. If that means occasionally denying access to CAS or delaying access then so be it.

I love the fact that most PPL's, with no training, are all experts at my chosen career. You did your ATC course - where?
Call early enough and you probably won't have to do either. Call a mile from the zone boundary and that's your own fault.
That is rather insulting, and has no place in rational debate - mainly because it's a complete untruth.
Like I said - total incomprehension of the system and how it works. That "slot" is normally because the other end has delays (weather, serviceabilities etc etc). To fit in the flow that aircraft has to arrive at destination at a certain time - therefore it has to leave at a certain time. On that basis I have a finite window to depart them, and if it means you pitch up at the wrong moment you get the slight inconvenience. Sorry, but that's how the game is played.

Real world scenario. Greek airport, popular holiday destination, has a major equipment outage. Arrivals restricted to 5 per hour. That affects every departure for there throughout Europe, some departing from us. Believe me - that departure window cannot be broken (And I'm not going to be in the office explaining why I have).

In general, reasonableness is a good thing.

Good point.

Isn't that where this thread started? ;)

LARS controllers
 

Sorry, but we don't. Just 1 ATCO trying to juggle ins,outs(IFR & VFR),zone transits, co-ordination with several adjacent mil and civ airfields and area units,etc as well as LARS. As Chilli says we prioritise.;)

Chilli

"I said a busy combined Commercial & GA airport - did I not?"

Sorry, you are correct, although I suppose solent does support one GA airport and one that use to be (and still does a bit of GA).

"Actually the priority is to provide a safe, orderly and expeditious flow of Air Traffic. If that means occasionally denying access to CAS or delaying access then so be it."

I was being provactive. However, you use the word expeditious and air traffic, without limitation which leaves you close to my point. The service is not limited to meeting these priorities for commercial traffic or GA traffic BUT for ALL air traffic.

"I love the fact that most PPL's, with no training, are all experts at my chosen career. You did your ATC course - where?"

That is always a dangerous one. Whilst I am certainly not an expert, I am a recipient of your service. From my stand point I am no more interested in what it takes for you to provide your service than how a doctor arrives at his diagnosis. I simply require that the doctor makes me better, as I would hope you would provide me with safe, orderly and expeditious flow . If I wanted to understand how the doctor makes me better I may as well be the doctor and not bother with his services in the first place. That is why you are an expert and I would hope do you best to provide me with the serivce I require.


"Call early enough and you probably won't have to do either. Call a mile from the zone boundary and that's your own fault."

Sorry, but you are wrong. I have been transiting CAS for a very long time. I reckon I know when and how to make the call.


"That is rather insulting, and has no place in rational debate - mainly because it's a complete untruth."

True - forgive me for being provocative agian.



"Like I said - total incomprehension of the system and how it works. That "slot" is normally because the other end has delays (weather, serviceabilities etc etc). To fit in the flow that aircraft has to arrive at destination at a certain time - therefore it has to leave at a certain time. On that basis I have a finite window to depart them, and if it means you pitch up at the wrong moment you get the slight inconvenience. Sorry, but that's how the game is played.

Real world scenario. Greek airport, popular holiday destination, has a major equipment outage. Arrivals restricted to 5 per hour. That affects every departure for there throughout Europe, some departing from us. Believe me - that departure window cannot be broken (And I'm not going to be in the office explaining why I have)."

.. .. .. but that is the point. You actually manage the commercial pressures very well and it is not usually in my experience a significant problem. However as CAS grows, as commercial pressures grow, as the sytem causes more and more delays the occasions where GA lose any priority become more frequent (because you are not going to be in the office explaining why), GA gets frustrated and the problems identified on this thread arise. Is it your fault - probably not. However the regulator obviously felt there was a problem by asking GA to report CAS transit denials. The original poster obvioulsy felt there was a problem becasue he felt GA had no place under his localiser. I feel it is a problem becasue I get my call in, in plenty of time and are all to often left wondering whether I will get the clearance and when.

I suppose it is a bit like the NHS. See the patient in 5 minutes and you can claim there are no delays. Tell the pilot to remain out side controlled airspace, I will come back - and the transit has not actually been denied, but by the time it has been granted there is a good chance the pilot's b**%£"" of some where else and even better will not bother next time. Trouble is he has become a different problem because he is now under my localiser not talking to me and there is nothing I can do about it but claim more CAS.

Fuji Abound you seem to have been a bit unfortunate with your experiences with Luton. I operate from a little grass strip under the approach to 26 so get to talk to Luton Radar a lot! On very few occasions have I heard Luton Radar turn down a transit request, if they are in one of their extremely busy patches ,or there is a new controller on then there will be the standard phrase "remain outside controlled airspace" but it is usually suffixed with an assurance that they will reply soon.

Personally I think Luton are a great example of how mixed GA / CAT should operate. In their immediate surroundings they have two active glider sites, three microlight fields, three grass strips, an RAF light training base (Henlow), a busy GA field (Panshanger) and a field that hosts regular summer airshows (Old Warden). Couple this with the demands of easyJet, Ryanair, Monarch, Whizz plus others and a host of bizjets and helicopters flying into Luton (oops plus the Police helo) they cope remarkably well and provide a couteous service.

PS Forgot the Luton Flying School operating from tha airport itself.