Cheap flying
 

Hello All
I have been a silly billy and got myself lumbered with a big mortgage (oh, and a fiancee too!). Unfortunately, whilst this has got me a nice house I have am now too skint at the moment to afford to fly as I have been doing up to date : fixed wing SEP.:{ I have also selected the optional extra of "irony" (at no cost) as I now find myself living just outside of the Elstree ATZ:ugh:
Can anyone provide any bright ideas about cheap ways of staying in the air? I have thought about getting a share in a cheap aircraft, however I am not in the position of investing a wedge of capital.
What do you think about the costs to convert to gliding or microlighting? I have looked up the cost of lessons and they still seem to be in the SEP ballpark, verging on £100 - this would only make sense if the transition from SEP would be quite fast.
Any bright ideas welcome!
Cheers,
BB

Re: Cheap flying
 

I believe there is at least one 'no capital' group/aeroplane operating out of Elstree.

I understand you can fly Microlights on your PPL SEP; some conversion training is recommended though even if you stick to 3-axis microlights.

Gliding is cheapish but very time costly, I suspect that the big mortgage also means 'not too much spare time!'

Alternatives are glider tugging (although a lot of them do like you to have gliding experience} and hauling parachutists.

Re: Cheap flying
 

there's two very good groups at elstree, neither charge any upfront fees or a monthly fee.

LeisureFlight (PA28's £90/tacho hour and once you do 4 hours in a month you just pay for the fuel for the next 6)

Lion Flying group (C172 + PA38 - £90/£66 respectively)

both have websites so have a look around.

That's pretty much the best that Elstree offers.

Re: Cheap flying
 

What about buying something decidely cheap but usable - a Rans Sakota for example? A share in a Jodel is another option - both PFA, both cheap to run & maintain!

Catch is they're both taildraggers...

Re: Cheap flying
 

I always thought that it was grammatical inexactitude :confused: to use the words 'cheap' and 'flying' in the same sentence.

However, there is also a no-friull, no capital group at North weald too, if you don't fancy Elstree. PM me for details.

Re: Cheap flying
 

Evening all, apologies for pushing in here but since we’re on the subject, does anyone know of any shares/low capital investment (preferably no capital!!) groups in the Blackbushe area? I’m also looking at finding a “cheaper” way of flying………..if there is such a thing! Any help is much appreciated.

Cheers :ok:

Re: Cheap flying
 

Bluebeard,

Easy, get shot of the big mortgage...................and show the fiancee the door too! :ok:

Seriously though, when we first met up we were but young gents, and a life of flying lay ahead of us. But then relationships develop, mortgages start to cost silly money and kids (in my case) come along, and flying is well stuffed.

Welcome to the real world! :{ :{ :{

Re: Cheap flying
 

This is where I get confused.

You too can travel at 100mph with a friend in a beautifully balanced and capable aircraft.

Your fuel cost would be no more than £15 per hour and your annual maintenance bills would cost less than 4 Indian meals with a friend.

You might not be able to fly at night or through cloud but does that REALLY bother you?

Your aircraft would not lose you money and it might well gradually appreciate over time.

To buy this aircraft with one friend would cost you £4/day and after a period of time similar to the time it takes to achive a PPL you would have paid for it.

Is flying really that expensive?:hmm:

Re: Cheap flying
 

Paris Dakar - good to hear from you mate, Happy New Year!:ok: Ah yes, thems were the days..am a little fatter and greyer as well, to boot:eek:

Thanks to all and sundry for the fine advice - I have actually just left the North Weald group (very good it is too - highly recommended). I have also checked out a group at Elstree and it also looks good, but I'm after something even cheaper, hence the nod towards microlighting.

Monocock, what is this beast you are referring to that I can buy for £1500 with a mate!?

Re: Cheap flying
 

PFA types on a farmstrip. Dead cheap outside the SE, where nothing is cheap.

QDM

Re: Cheap flying
 

Bluebeard - check your PM's

Re: Cheap flying
 

So that's £84 each?

Re: Cheap flying
 

Ok, I suppose if you go and do the "cornflake packet" USA route then you are right but you know what I'm getting at.

Re: Cheap flying
 

Monocock,
As I was one of those who went the I haven't the faintest idea what your sums add up to...............would you like to enlighten me, or is it reserved only for those who learned to fly in blighty?

Re: Cheap flying
 

If there is anyone on these pages that fancies becoming the other half owner of the type that Monocock describes and who lives in the Brighton/Newhaven/Seaford area I would love to hear from you.

Re: Cheap flying
 

Now, now Monocock. There's no need to get snipey just because some people spent half the money and 1/20th of the time getting excactly the same qualification you did.:E

I'm with Mr Dakar - you do seem a bit reluctant to give details. Why so?

Re: Cheap flying
 

I too crave enlightenment, please reveal

Re: Cheap flying
 

Play fair Mono ;)

Not sure where he gets his £4 a day from, but it is mighty cheap compared to club/school rental rates when spread over a period of time.

I recently did the sums and over a 5 year period it would pay me to go for the type Mono is on about, even on group rates - unfortunately the recent ex has put paid to having a whole one to myself for the time being.
Hence my appeal for anyone happy to go halves!!

Obviously we can't reveal the type or everyone will want one :} :suspect:

Re: Cheap flying
 

have a look at http://www.aeronautique.co.uk/

Blackbushe no capital group
 

Give the flying club at Blackbushe (don't think it was cabair so try the other one whos name escapes me at the mo) a call as they should be able to put you in touch with the right people. A mate of mine joined a no capital group a few months ago. Paid an annual fee which was nominal (think it was in the order of £100), had a checkout with one of the instructors at Blackbushe. Think they have two PA28's (am sure one was G-XENA) at reasonable rates including home landings and online booking. No monthly fees or anything like that either, just pay as you fly with no strings attached.

My Cub-type aeroplane costs me about £51 per hour, all in, for 100 hours a year.

Insurance = £900
Hangarage = £1800
Petrol = £1520 (mogas)
Maintenance, permit, etc = £900
Total: £5120

Russ

Monocock's still being reticent I see. :hmm:

It would seem to me that much depends on whether the original poster wants to end up with legal logbook entries.

If so, he will have to hire/borrow/buy a plane or a part of and fly it.

If not i.e. if he just wants to stay current, there should be a fair number of pilots, some with very nice very expensive planes too, who fly regularly and who would happily take somebody up who, in return for being allowed to fly, will give them a little wad of cash at the end :O

I hadn't seen this before. It looks like a very good deal. What's the catch?

Well....

:rolleyes:

I lost it at the "£84" stage...anyone care to elucidate where that came from? And I do know the 1/20 rule.

I'm with Mono on this.

I used to own 1/10th a share of a Luton Minor based at Shoreham. The share cost £500 and the monthly was somewhere in the region of £25 (memory fails me a bit on that one but it was around that figure). The group has disbanded but the principal is sound. Get a few like minded souls together (if you can find them), decide on type and start a group. Better if you can buy into an established group I guess or even consider outright ownership. I have a Slingsby T31m that is very nearly ready to fly. It's purchase as a glider and conversion costs will amount to around £2000, and I will fly from my farm strip. Flying costs will be around 3 galls/hour of mogas plus a bit of oil. Fixed costs are likely to be fairly low as I'm luckily in a position to have my own strip/hangar and as it will be self maintained, costs there are just delt with on an as and when basis. Insurance is the biggest pain in the butt for me, but I'm hoping to insure through a French company which "may" only cost around £100/yr. This is just to illustrate that it can be done cheaply. OK you may not want to build, but Lutons, VP's, Taylor Mono's ect can be had from as little as £2500. Some, such as FRED's can be folded or dismantled and kept at home in a garage. They may not be sexy, but they get your bum off the ground, are fun, and can keep your licence current. Microlights are similar, and whilst I don't want to put you off them, you can't keep your licence up with one. Also, with the exeption of some older types like early Thrusters, MW7's ect, they also tend to be a lot more expensive than single seat PFA types.

If you want cheap flying ... it is out there, you just have to look beyond the club hangar.

SS

Well put.

In my view, there are too many out there who do positively turn their noses up at the really basic types who then go on to moan about not being able to reach the 12 hours minimum each year.

Is it because there is a general belief by some that unless it has 40 twiddly knobs, strobes and flashing lights that it isn't REAL flying.

I do know of certain sailing types who wouldn't be seen dead in a Mirror dinghy. Perhaps this is this the same type of aeronautical issue?

In the latest Today's Pilot in the feature on Old Sarum I noticed that they are syndicating Icarus C42s. A 1/20 share, 25 hours instruction and 25 hours flying for less than £5k. It is a microlight, but a pretty nice one.

Might be worth a look (especially if you can fly any aircraft in the C42 fleet, not just "your" one)!

Just done a little search and the Luton Major looks a nice little craft.
Anyone know of one in the UK?(apart from the one in Nth East Museum) it seems there is only one in Ozzieland built in the 70's but it has a good review.

Also found this which is a nice little monoplane for £6000.
Would make a nice little group aircraft between 3 0r so friends.

http://www.taylormonoplane.4t.com/shopping_page.html

Depends what licences you've got (and whether you care most about licences, or just flying), and by the way, the MW-7 is a single seat PFA type, and isn't a microlight.

Since most microlights are 2-seaters, it's unsurprising that they *might* be a little more expensive than an equivalent or lower performance single seater! Since most modern microlights are rather higher performance than a basic PFA single seater, probably newer, and almost certainly built by a factory that's still supplying spares, the same applies.

G

Whoops! Sorry about the MW7 .... silly me!

You're quite correct Gengis and I'm not suggesting for a minute that a microlight is either less value for money or any less "worthy". However, as the original poster obviously seems to be group A (for want of a better description :hmm: ) and was looking to other types of flying as a percieved cheaper way to fly, I was simply pointing out that that isn't always the case. If all you want to do is fly, then fine, but to let your licence lapse because you think microlighting, gliding ect are the only alternative is simply wrong.

I had an early weightshift a couple of years ago that cost me £700, I also used to fly gliders, so I'm not out to paint them in any bad light. I just think very cheap PFA types are a lot of fun and so often overlooked.

SS

Monocock - I'm not slagging off the more 'basic' aircraft/aviation in any way. Given the choice I would be driving my Aston Martin down to my Pilatus hanger, but life doesn't really work that way.

Strafer - I wasn't suggesting you were "slagging off" anything.

Please don't be so sensitive. I must confess to becoming a little tired of your apparent persistent desire to pounce on everything I post in this thread! If my comments come across as adversarial I apologise. They are not aimed at anyone in particular and I blame my genetics for the way I say things as I see them!

If I know what I need to apologise for doing or saying I will:)

Nice term that, I wonder if we should consider making wider use of it.

G

Now I'm missing something else, G, what else would group A mean?

Mono - If you're feeling tired dear, I suggest you go and lie down and then you can carry on practising your 'I say what I like and I like what I bloody well say' Yorkshireman impression. :)

Now then enough thread creep, back to what ever this thread's about...

Bahn-Jeaux, I think there is only one Luton Major airworthy in the UK. When I last saw it 6-7 years ago it had just been rebuilt and looked fantastic.

The PFAs position on the Luton Major is that it can only be flown without a passenger, unless the position has changed recently.

I had one as a rebuild project in the late 80's and got rid when I realised the problems with weight would probably mean single seat operation only.

Also, had a Minor and a VP1 for a few years and would certainly recommend these types as safe and cheap aircraft to operate.

Hello all again!

After the fairly fruitful discussion on this thread, it did leave me with some food for thought. There is indeed a good selection of groups at Elstree, in fact probably out of proportion to its size. I've also had a useful PM from one of you re a motorglider (very interesting but quite far to drive to get to it), and have done some digging re cheap local PFA types (don't seem to be that many close to me).

However, I was wondering how to do it EVEN more cheaply (humour me here, after all this is aviation...;) ) so I have been taking a look at microlights, 3-axis and flexwing. The conudrum seems to be that they're cheap as chips to fly...but where they are in groups, the groups tend to consist of only 2 or 3 bods, which for most MLs still works out at quite a few grand each. So, we've got some 'proper' plane groups, for low or zero capital but with larger running costs, and 'little' plane groups for more substantial capital but cheap running costs.

Anyone know why this is the case? And, more importantly, if there are any ML groups with quite a few members in S.Herts?

Cheers!

BB